Indiana: Bloomington & The New Rank

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flexityflex86
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Indiana: Bloomington & The New Rank

Postby flexityflex86 » Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:17 am

Given IU's rise to 23, and the predictable rise next year given all the 120k schollies, would it be wise to pick IU at 120K over Emory and Notre Dame at 60k if one's only goals were starting salary and financial stability?

fakemoney
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Re: Indiana: Bloomington & The New Rank

Postby fakemoney » Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:21 am

I don't think "IUB's rise to 23" should be the deciding factor. It could just as easily plummet to 30 next year. Go if you're interested in practicing in the Midwest, don't care about big law too much, and are willing to trade ND's stronger national reputation for less debt.

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thunderflesh
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Re: Indiana: Bloomington & The New Rank

Postby thunderflesh » Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:22 am

I wouldn't base a decision as important as this on a one-year fluctuation in ranking, especially considering where IU:B sits in the rankings, which is a pretty volatile range. It might drop ten places by the time you graduate.

Also: this should probably be in "Choosing a Law School"
Last edited by thunderflesh on Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

ran12
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Re: Indiana: Bloomington & The New Rank

Postby ran12 » Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:23 am

IUB to 23 means nothing. For financial stability you should take the 120k b/c you'll have smaller debt but for higher starting salary opportunities, Notre Dame is much better. ND's rep and recognition are def a huge plus for them. Emory is a bad option b/c the Atlanta market is not doing well.

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AreJay711
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Re: Indiana: Bloomington & The New Rank

Postby AreJay711 » Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:25 am

thunderflesh wrote:I wouldn't base a decision as important as this on a one-year fluctuation in ranking, especially considering where IU:B's sits in the rankings, which is a pretty volatile range. It might drop ten places by the time you graduate.

Also: this should probably be in "Choosing a Law School"

If it does drop it wouldn't really matter much. If it stays in the top 25 for 10 years or something it might matter but otherwise rankings aren't going to mean much. I'd be surprised if it affects employers at all for next year.

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: Indiana: Bloomington & The New Rank

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:37 am

flexityflex86 wrote:Given IU's rise to 23, and the predictable rise next year given all the 120k schollies, would it be wise to pick IU at 120K over Emory and Notre Dame at 60k if one's only goals were starting salary and financial stability?


If your goal is starting salary and financial stability, and not knowing where you have ties to, Emory is the best choice out of the three. While IUB is technically the best deal in terms of debt, but no one outside of smaller firms in Indiana would consider IUB to be on par with Emory or Notre Dame.

While Notre Dame historically has placed better than Emory, 1) Emory has been doing better with placing students and 2) Emory is in a major metropolitan area. As to the former, it is reasonable to assume Emory will continue its excellent efforts at trying to place students. As to the latter, if you attend and miss big law, which you most likely will, you will be better positioned for decently paid positions in a major city.

Why is that information relevant? Assuming you miss big law and anything good from OCI from either Emory or Notre dame, which you most likely will, the former will leave you in a decent position in a city or where you have ties to while the latter will leave you trying to get back to where you have ties to.

flexityflex86
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Re: Indiana: Bloomington & The New Rank

Postby flexityflex86 » Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:41 am

I prefer Atlanta, but it's tough to take on 60k for worse career prospects.

athenian
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Re: Indiana: Bloomington & The New Rank

Postby athenian » Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:46 am

flexityflex86 wrote:I prefer Atlanta, but it's tough to take on 60k for worse career prospects.


If you love Atlanta, you'll have incredibly better job prospects in the city and the South coming from Emory than from either IU or Notre Dame.

Indiana's new rank isn't going to change it's biglaw placement and isn't going to give it a national reputation.

If you want to work in the Atlanta, go to Emory. If you want to work in Indianapolis with a slim shot at Chicago, go to IU. If you want to work in Chicago with a chance of parlaying a mildly national reputation elsewhere, go to Notre Dame.

fakemoney
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Re: Indiana: Bloomington & The New Rank

Postby fakemoney » Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:47 am

Worse career prospects compared to what, IUB? IUB going up a few spots in the rankings is not very relevant in terms of career prospects.

flexityflex86
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Re: Indiana: Bloomington & The New Rank

Postby flexityflex86 » Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:49 am

athenian wrote:
flexityflex86 wrote:I prefer Atlanta, but it's tough to take on 60k for worse career prospects.


If you love Atlanta, you'll have incredibly better job prospects in the city and the South coming from Emory than from either IU or Notre Dame.

Indiana's new rank isn't going to change it's biglaw placement and isn't going to give it a national reputation.

If you want to work in the Atlanta, go to Emory. If you want to work in Indianapolis with a slim shot at Chicago, go to IU. If you want to work in Chicago with a chance of parlaying a mildly national reputation elsewhere, go to Notre Dame.

I would prefer living in Atlanta or anywhere in Florida to the midwest.

My goal with Emory was if Atlanta didn't work, I'd have Florida as a firm possibility. I'm just not so sure. They no longer seem like a "very good" school a la the BU, GWU vain.

athenian
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Re: Indiana: Bloomington & The New Rank

Postby athenian » Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:54 am

flexityflex86 wrote:
athenian wrote:
flexityflex86 wrote:I prefer Atlanta, but it's tough to take on 60k for worse career prospects.


If you love Atlanta, you'll have incredibly better job prospects in the city and the South coming from Emory than from either IU or Notre Dame.

Indiana's new rank isn't going to change it's biglaw placement and isn't going to give it a national reputation.

If you want to work in the Atlanta, go to Emory. If you want to work in Indianapolis with a slim shot at Chicago, go to IU. If you want to work in Chicago with a chance of parlaying a mildly national reputation elsewhere, go to Notre Dame.

I would prefer living in Atlanta or anywhere in Florida to the midwest.

My goal with Emory was if Atlanta didn't work, I'd have Florida as a firm possibility. I'm just not so sure. They no longer seem like a "very good" school a la the BU, GWU vain.


Dude, it's a one year change in the rankings. The opinions of hiring partners will not change one bit as the result of Emory dropping 8 spaces... especially in Atlanta. I can tell you from first hand knowledge that there are some hiring partners at the big firms in Atlanta that didn't even know that Indiana was a "good school." Emory wipes the floor with both IU and ND in Atlanta, you'd be foolish to think otherwise. Emory also has a great reputation in Florida. You seem to be trying to talk yourself out of what should be a no-brainer decision.

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: Indiana: Bloomington & The New Rank

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Tue Mar 15, 2011 12:02 pm

athenian wrote:You seem to be trying to talk yourself out of what should be a no-brainer decision.


Basically.

flexityflex86 wrote: I'm just not so sure. They no longer seem like a "very good" school a la the BU, GWU vain.


OP, I wasn't aware you were also considering BU and GWU.

And, assuming Emory is not a "very good" school, certainly Notre Dame would not be and IUB....there is no quantifiable evidence that IUB places students any better than say LSU, U of Alabama, U of Kentucky, etc.

flexityflex86
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Re: Indiana: Bloomington & The New Rank

Postby flexityflex86 » Tue Mar 15, 2011 12:23 pm

athenian wrote:
flexityflex86 wrote:
athenian wrote:
flexityflex86 wrote:I prefer Atlanta, but it's tough to take on 60k for worse career prospects.


If you love Atlanta, you'll have incredibly better job prospects in the city and the South coming from Emory than from either IU or Notre Dame.

Indiana's new rank isn't going to change it's biglaw placement and isn't going to give it a national reputation.

If you want to work in the Atlanta, go to Emory. If you want to work in Indianapolis with a slim shot at Chicago, go to IU. If you want to work in Chicago with a chance of parlaying a mildly national reputation elsewhere, go to Notre Dame.

I would prefer living in Atlanta or anywhere in Florida to the midwest.

My goal with Emory was if Atlanta didn't work, I'd have Florida as a firm possibility. I'm just not so sure. They no longer seem like a "very good" school a la the BU, GWU vain.


Dude, it's a one year change in the rankings. The opinions of hiring partners will not change one bit as the result of Emory dropping 8 spaces... especially in Atlanta. I can tell you from first hand knowledge that there are some hiring partners at the big firms in Atlanta that didn't even know that Indiana was a "good school." Emory wipes the floor with both IU and ND in Atlanta, you'd be foolish to think otherwise. Emory also has a great reputation in Florida. You seem to be trying to talk yourself out of what should be a no-brainer decision.

You're misunderstanding me. I'd just rather work and live in Atlanta than Chicago, but I don't need Atlanta.

My goal is to be able to provide for a family, and be employed first and foremost.

09042014
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Re: Indiana: Bloomington & The New Rank

Postby 09042014 » Tue Mar 15, 2011 12:25 pm

flexityflex86 wrote:You're misunderstanding me. I'd just rather work and live in Atlanta than Chicago, but I don't need Atlanta.

My goal is to be able to provide for a family, and be employed first and foremost.


Then you should get yourself admitted to a t13, to med school or engineering school.

hardworkingal
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Re: Indiana: Bloomington & The New Rank

Postby hardworkingal » Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:16 pm

IUB will not fall down, at least not next year, from 23 with all the endowment money it's received. 52% of graduates from Indiana go outside of Indiana to look for employment, it's not restricted to the Midwest, it has a solid reputation in Florida.

09042014
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Re: Indiana: Bloomington & The New Rank

Postby 09042014 » Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:22 pm

hardworkingal wrote:IUB will not fall down, at least not next year, from 23 with all the endowment money it's received. 52% of graduates from Indiana go outside of Indiana to look for employment, it's not restricted to the Midwest, it has a solid reputation in Florida.


They go back home to their parents dejected failures.

JakeL
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Re: Indiana: Bloomington & The New Rank

Postby JakeL » Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:25 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
hardworkingal wrote:IUB will not fall down, at least not next year, from 23 with all the endowment money it's received. 52% of graduates from Indiana go outside of Indiana to look for employment, it's not restricted to the Midwest, it has a solid reputation in Florida.


They go back home to their parents dejected failures.


lol wut

09042014
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Re: Indiana: Bloomington & The New Rank

Postby 09042014 » Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:27 pm

JakeL wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
hardworkingal wrote:IUB will not fall down, at least not next year, from 23 with all the endowment money it's received. 52% of graduates from Indiana go outside of Indiana to look for employment, it's not restricted to the Midwest, it has a solid reputation in Florida.


They go back home to their parents dejected failures.


lol wut


IUB big law placement is terrible. Even in the old economy is was in teh 10% range.

JakeL
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Re: Indiana: Bloomington & The New Rank

Postby JakeL » Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:30 pm

Ya for sure. I don't know why anyone would go there if their biggest priority was big law. That's probably the biggest thing that will continue to hold it back. Who knows though, if they stay strong for a few more years, some more firms might start showing up for OCI.

nelaw2010
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Re: Indiana: Bloomington & The New Rank

Postby nelaw2010 » Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:56 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
JakeL wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
hardworkingal wrote:IUB will not fall down, at least not next year, from 23 with all the endowment money it's received. 52% of graduates from Indiana go outside of Indiana to look for employment, it's not restricted to the Midwest, it has a solid reputation in Florida.


They go back home to their parents dejected failures.


lol wut


IUB big law placement is terrible. Even in the old economy is was in teh 10% range.


But things change. I think IUB is aggressively using its resources to attract better students, improve their rankings, and thereby improve future prospects. Whether you want Big Law or not, the idea of graduating with minimal debt is tremendous.

I believe Desert Fox goes to Northwestern, which is an amazing school. But if he's there with no $$$, he'll be at least 180k in debt (assuming he's not getting any family support). If you pay back 180k over 30 years, it's $1,173/month.

"But I'll work Big Law and make a lot of money!!!" Have you ever worked in a "Big Law" firm? I have (as a paralegal). Almost ALL associates were miserable and worked themselves into the ground. Not only that, but I saw a lot of associates leave after a few years b/c they hated the quality of life.

So you can assume a lot of things about IUB, what type of jobs it will land you, and what it means to your future. However, you're also assuming a lot about paying full-ride at a T-14. You're assuming you WILL get the Big Law job, and you're assuming you'll work there long enough for it to pay off. Those are two HUGE assumptions.

09042014
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Re: Indiana: Bloomington & The New Rank

Postby 09042014 » Tue Mar 15, 2011 2:05 pm

nelaw2010 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
JakeL wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:They go back home to their parents dejected failures.


lol wut


IUB big law placement is terrible. Even in the old economy is was in teh 10% range.


But things change. I think IUB is aggressively using its resources to attract better students, improve their rankings, and thereby improve future prospects. Whether you want Big Law or not, the idea of graduating with minimal debt is tremendous.

I believe Desert Fox goes to Northwestern, which is an amazing school. But if he's there with no $$$, he'll be at least 180k in debt (assuming he's not getting any family support). If you pay back 180k over 30 years, it's $1,173/month.

"But I'll work Big Law and make a lot of money!!!" Have you ever worked in a "Big Law" firm? I have (as a paralegal). Almost ALL associates were miserable and worked themselves into the ground. Not only that, but I saw a lot of associates leave after a few years b/c they hated the quality of life.

So you can assume a lot of things about IUB, what type of jobs it will land you, and what it means to your future. However, you're also assuming a lot about paying full-ride at a T-14. You're assuming you WILL get the Big Law job, and you're assuming you'll work there long enough for it to pay off. Those are two HUGE assumptions.



Since US News means dick in terms of actual hiring their rise means nothing. And as soon as their spending blitz ends, they will drop like a rock.

If you only want less competitive law jobs, then obviously go for free. And 120 at IUB vs 60 at Emory and ND isn't much of a choice IUB all the way. But it still has horrid job prospects.

IUB only gave me 30K, so it wasn't an option. I'm not sure what I would have done with a full ride. Since I want patent law, which is less competitive than big law, I might have taken it. But that doesn't mean IUB isn't a festering TTT.

JakeL
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Re: Indiana: Bloomington & The New Rank

Postby JakeL » Tue Mar 15, 2011 2:27 pm

Desert Fox wrote: But that doesn't mean IUB isn't a festering TTT.


IUB->TTT. You heard it here first everyone. BTW, I think it's going to take them a little while to burn up $40 million that has been donated strictly for scholarships. By that time they may have just bought enough rep to hang around. Not to mention, Indiana's economy is pretty good these days.

09042014
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Re: Indiana: Bloomington & The New Rank

Postby 09042014 » Tue Mar 15, 2011 2:33 pm

JakeL wrote:
Desert Fox wrote: But that doesn't mean IUB isn't a festering TTT.


IUB->TTT. You heard it here first everyone. BTW, I think it's going to take them a little while to burn up $40 million that has been donated strictly for scholarships. By that time they may have just bought enough rep to hang around. Not to mention, Indiana's economy is pretty good these days.


Indiana's law market is tiny. And it has Norte Dame to compete with. And even IU-Indy is competitive with it in Indianapolis their biggest city. And they have to compete with UChi, Michigan, and Northwestern students (all three draw IN students who go back).

They need to work on their Chicago placement. IU has good lay prestige inside Chicago for their undergrad. They need to exploit it.

Jeffro
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Re: Indiana: Bloomington & The New Rank

Postby Jeffro » Tue Mar 15, 2011 2:37 pm

JakeL wrote:BTW, I think it's going to take them a little while to burn up $40 million that has been donated strictly for scholarships.
About this, does anyone have any information about this endowment? I have been trying to research the specifics of what it can be used for, for negotiation purposes, but can't find any articles or anything on the interwebz. Any ideas?

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alexb
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Re: Indiana: Bloomington & The New Rank

Postby alexb » Tue Mar 15, 2011 2:44 pm

There is a lot of competition in the Midwest, but Indiana isn't the worst choice if you want to stick around and don't mind not getting biglaw.




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