What to do to increase chances of a favorable outcome:

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subtle
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What to do to increase chances of a favorable outcome:

Postby subtle » Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:18 pm

Hey everyone,

I'm posting this question on behalf of a friend who could use some help. Her cycle is not going well at all. She was recently deferred at Wayne State and held at U of D Mercy. What should she do to increase her chances of getting an acceptance:

For some background info: She is a white female, 3.8 uGPA, 144/142 LSAT. She interned in the ADA's office last summer, and has also interned for a judge in Rhode Island.

I told her to send a LOCI, a LOR, an updated résumé (she'll be getting some new awards this semester), as well as try to attend class and generally just show as much interest as possible.

My questions are:

1. What should she stress in a LOCI?
2. What else, if anything, can she do/send besides what I've already suggested?
3. Should she not send any of the things I've suggested?

shoop
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Re: What to do to increase chances of a favorable outcome:

Postby shoop » Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:20 pm

#3, and then she should retake the LSAT after doing absolutely everything in her power to get her practice tests at least into the upper 150s (and ideally into the 160s). 14x is a waste of a damn fine GPA and is absolutely the reason her cycle is going poorly.

Also, the way you mentioned that you suggested she "attend class and generally show interest" makes me wonder if she's not been a stellar student to this point, other than getting good grades? Is it possible that one or more of her LORs is from a professor in whose course she was not so good about "attending class and generally showing interest?"
Last edited by shoop on Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

wester0
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Re: What to do to increase chances of a favorable outcome:

Postby wester0 » Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:22 pm

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Last edited by wester0 on Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

subtle
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Re: What to do to increase chances of a favorable outcome:

Postby subtle » Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:22 pm

shoop wrote:She should retake the LSAT after doing absolutely everything in her power to get her practice tests at least into the upper 150s (and ideally into the 160s). 14x is a waste of a damn fine GPA and is absolutely the reason her cycle is going poorly.


I understand that. She's set on going this fall. Frankly, I don't think that retaking will help. She took a class and studied for months before both LSATs. So short of retaking, anything else?

shoop
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Re: What to do to increase chances of a favorable outcome:

Postby shoop » Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:27 pm

subtle wrote:
shoop wrote:She should retake the LSAT after doing absolutely everything in her power to get her practice tests at least into the upper 150s (and ideally into the 160s). 14x is a waste of a damn fine GPA and is absolutely the reason her cycle is going poorly.


I understand that. She's set on going this fall. Frankly, I don't think that retaking will help. She took a class and studied for months before both LSATs. So short of retaking, anything else?


Why is she set on going this fall? If she can't get that LSAT up despite tons of study, law might not be for her. If she CAN get that LSAT up, the best choice in the long run is to take a year off, re-apply early, and get into a school where she stands a fighting chance of being able to pay off the debt she'll incur.

I really don't get this phenomena of abysmally-numbered people being so desperate to become a lawyer that they'll settle for a TTTT that really won't help them achieve whatever dream made them so frantic to get into LS ASAP in the first place.

cowgirl_bebop
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Re: What to do to increase chances of a favorable outcome:

Postby cowgirl_bebop » Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:29 pm

subtle wrote:
shoop wrote:She should retake the LSAT after doing absolutely everything in her power to get her practice tests at least into the upper 150s (and ideally into the 160s). 14x is a waste of a damn fine GPA and is absolutely the reason her cycle is going poorly.


I understand that. She's set on going this fall. Frankly, I don't think that retaking will help. She took a class and studied for months before both LSATs. So short of retaking, anything else?


If 14x is the best she can do, law school may not be for her, and I am being 100% honest. With that score she is going to be stuck at TTTToilet. She has an EXCELLENT GPA and some great softs, but if all that adds up to is a hold a UDM than she REALLY needs to rethink things.

If she has her heart set on law school, she needs to retake and wait until next cycle. She has plenty of time to study between now and June. IDK what her study methods were, but she really needs to take another crack at it.

subtle
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Re: What to do to increase chances of a favorable outcome:

Postby subtle » Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:30 pm

shoop wrote:#3, and then she should retake the LSAT after doing absolutely everything in her power to get her practice tests at least into the upper 150s (and ideally into the 160s). 14x is a waste of a damn fine GPA and is absolutely the reason her cycle is going poorly.

Also, the way you mentioned that you suggested she "attend class and generally show interest" makes me wonder if she's not been a stellar student to this point, other than getting good grades? Is it possible that one or more of her LORs is from a professor in whose course she was not so good about "attending class and generally showing interest?"



Oh. Sorry for being unclear. I meant attending a class at U of D and Wayne when she comes home for break.

She is set on going this fall because her parents won't let her take time off--even if she works--and they're footing the bill for law school. Debt isn't much of an issue.

shoop
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Re: What to do to increase chances of a favorable outcome:

Postby shoop » Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:35 pm

subtle wrote:She is set on going this fall because her parents won't let her take time off--even if she works--and they're footing the bill for law school. Debt isn't much of an issue.


No offense, but what the fuck is wrong with her parents?

subtle
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Re: What to do to increase chances of a favorable outcome:

Postby subtle » Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:36 pm

shoop wrote:
subtle wrote:She is set on going this fall because her parents won't let her take time off--even if she works--and they're footing the bill for law school. Debt isn't much of an issue.


No offense, but what the fuck is wrong with her parents?


Your guess is as good as mine.

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The Gentleman
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Re: What to do to increase chances of a favorable outcome:

Postby The Gentleman » Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:42 pm

This may be the only time in my life I ever say this, but what about Cooley? If her parents are indeed footing the entire bill, then the worst that can happen is that she winds up unemployed and debt free.

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Zabini
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Re: What to do to increase chances of a favorable outcome:

Postby Zabini » Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:44 pm

How did her parents make enough money to afford LS tuition? Unless they're just imbeciles who won the lottery, I refuse to believe they're too thick to be made to see how dumb it is to force their daughter into a TTT over waiting an extra year.

subtle
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Re: What to do to increase chances of a favorable outcome:

Postby subtle » Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:49 pm

The Gentleman wrote:This may be the only time in my life I ever say this, but what about Cooley? If her parents are indeed footing the entire bill, then the worst that can happen is that she winds up unemployed and debt free.



She's been accepted to Cooley, but doesn't want to go if she doesn't have to. She's also been granted a scholarship to Cooley. I feel like she's actually the type of person who could do well coming out of Cooley, because we have connections in our hometown.

Zabini wrote:How did her parents make enough money to afford LS tuition? Unless they're just imbeciles who won the lottery, I refuse to believe they're too thick to be made to see how dumb it is to force their daughter into a TTT over waiting an extra year.


Frankly, given that they're paying for her sister's law school tuition and her other sister's undergrad tuition, I don't know. Even with the extra year, I'm not sure she could crack the TT.


I promised her I'd make a thread and ask on her behalf. It seems (short of a retake) there's no real advice to be had on what else she can do for Wayne and U of D?

maglialoro
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Re: What to do to increase chances of a favorable outcome:

Postby maglialoro » Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:52 pm

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Last edited by maglialoro on Thu Mar 10, 2011 9:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

BeachandRun23
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Re: What to do to increase chances of a favorable outcome:

Postby BeachandRun23 » Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:57 pm

She has good internships and a damn fine gpa. The only thing thats holding her back is her lsat...

cowgirl_bebop
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Re: What to do to increase chances of a favorable outcome:

Postby cowgirl_bebop » Mon Feb 07, 2011 8:09 pm

maglialoro wrote:
Zabini wrote:How did her parents make enough money to afford LS tuition? Unless they're just imbeciles who won the lottery, I refuse to believe they're too thick to be made to see how dumb it is to force their daughter into a TTT over waiting an extra year.



I think this statement is a bit ignorant. I mean, a lot of parents do not understand the difference between t14 and tier3. The fact that I even applied to Michigan elicited negative responses from my parents because they couldnt understand why I would want to go there. Even trying to explain that some LS are better than others doesnt always work because a lot of peoples parents think that the prestige of being a lawyer from any school is enough to guarentee a job.


LOL, you must have been talking to my dad. He doesnt understand why I want to get into IUB with a scholly and move to IN when I have have a full tuition offer from SJU. He is under the impression that if you work hard and network you can get any job anywhere out of any school. When I try explaining to him that SJU is ranked so low in an already crowded market, he called me "a mental slave to the establishment". :lol:

I stopped listening after that...

fakemoney
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Re: What to do to increase chances of a favorable outcome:

Postby fakemoney » Mon Feb 07, 2011 8:29 pm

Obviously the best advice is to retake, but assuming that's not an option, she should just send out a ton of apps with a killer addendum explaining her LSAT scores. Maybe, maybe, a reverse-splitter friendly school might be interested in her for her 3.8 GPA.

subtle
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Re: What to do to increase chances of a favorable outcome:

Postby subtle » Mon Feb 07, 2011 8:54 pm

fakemoney wrote:Obviously the best advice is to retake, but assuming that's not an option, she should just send out a ton of apps with a killer addendum explaining her LSAT scores. Maybe, maybe, a reverse-splitter friendly school might be interested in her for her 3.8 GPA.



What are some reverse-splitter friendly schools in the TT, TTT, and TTTT? I'm really skeptical about her chances in the TT as she's gotten dinged everywhere so far (and some places in TTT and TTTT).

maglialoro
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Re: What to do to increase chances of a favorable outcome:

Postby maglialoro » Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:04 pm

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Last edited by maglialoro on Thu Mar 10, 2011 9:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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tea_drinker
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Re: What to do to increase chances of a favorable outcome:

Postby tea_drinker » Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:12 pm

I think if she has the money for app fee, she should just send app out to all schools in area(s) where she wants to work post graduation. Also, schools with lsat 25% in the low 150s and high 140s are acceptable bets, hoping her GPA will help.

cowgirl_bebop
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Re: What to do to increase chances of a favorable outcome:

Postby cowgirl_bebop » Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:18 pm

maglialoro wrote:
exactly my point. unfortunately for the person in question, the parents are in control of tuition payments. If she stop listening in this case,it may cost her 150K+ in tuition :(


And that is tragic. I dont know this girl, but I am sure if it came down to attending a crappy school or retaking and shooting for a better school next cycle she would do it, because she seems very interested in practicing law. But her parents are really about to push her into a terrible situation which will results in money lost, 3 years lost, and no meaningful employment.

Fortunately, or unfortunately, my dad is in prison and therefore has no money to contribute to my education so he cannot force me to go anywhere or to go to school at a certain time. I sincerely hope this young lady can reason with her parents

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dr123
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Re: What to do to increase chances of a favorable outcome:

Postby dr123 » Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:24 pm

she should tell her parents to fuck off and retake, personally i'd rather graduate with debt at a t2 then from cooley

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DoubleChecks
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Re: What to do to increase chances of a favorable outcome:

Postby DoubleChecks » Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:25 pm

you guys are all assuming she can (or is even willing to) retake the LSAT and get a significantly higher score. it isnt like she is currently in a situation where she can go, "mom, dad, i CAN get into x school for SURE if i wait a yr..." i mean, if she CAN do that, having her parents NOT foot the bill may even make sense (i.e. she suddenly scores in the high 160s and can go to a T14...even then i doubt having taken a yr off, her parents would at THAT point refuse to foot the bill). after all, she studied months and took a class and is still under the median point after two attempts (with the second being lower even).

alas, that is not the case. shouldnt we assume, for the sake of the OP's question, that his friend CANNOT score above a 150 on the real thing? (whether she personally chooses not to or just can't)

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Zabini
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Re: What to do to increase chances of a favorable outcome:

Postby Zabini » Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:33 pm

maglialoro wrote:
Zabini wrote:How did her parents make enough money to afford LS tuition? Unless they're just imbeciles who won the lottery, I refuse to believe they're too thick to be made to see how dumb it is to force their daughter into a TTT over waiting an extra year.



I think this statement is a bit ignorant. I mean, a lot of parents do not understand the difference between t14 and tier3. The fact that I even applied to Michigan elicited negative responses from my parents because they couldnt understand why I would want to go there. Even trying to explain that some LS are better than others doesnt always work because a lot of peoples parents think that the tprestige of being a lawyer from any school is enough to guarentee a job.


I understand that not many people understand law school rankings and the legal economy and etc off the top of the dome, but it should be easy enough to show them the research we're all familiar with that shows how hard/impossible it is to get any sort of legal job (let alone a quality one) out of a third tier school. Parents not understanding/appreciating the differences between HYS/t6/t14/t25/whatever distinction they have trouble with is one thing, not understanding that there is any difference in law schools at all is quite another. If her parents are rational - which I'm assuming you normally have to be to acquire the sort of assets they must have - they should be able to quickly understand that it's a waste of their money and their daughter's time to go to a school like that and that the better investment is a year off + intense LSAT study to get something tier 1.

subtle
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Re: What to do to increase chances of a favorable outcome:

Postby subtle » Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:41 pm

dr123 wrote:she should tell her parents to fuck off and retake, personally i'd rather graduate with debt at a t2 then from cooley



I guess it depends on your goals. There are a lot of lawyers (I say this because the legal community in Detroit is small enough for everyone to know everyone and everything about everyone else and this is what I've been told by both my mother and father who are attorneys) in the Detroit area who graduated from Cooley and Wayne and are doing well, but probably couldn't leave the Detroit area.

I don't understand at all why her parents want her to go right away. They've also said that they'd be willing to let her reapply next year and pay for a private tutor if she goes to a one-year grad program at Wayne. Am I mistaken or would work experience help her chances more than a one year graduate program? I mean, I feel like work experience would be looked on more favorably than a short graduate program even if she can't pull up her LSAT much with a private tutor (and, realistically speaking, I'm not sure she can. She also bombed both the SAT and ACT).

As for not understanding the differences between law schools, I feel like they have to understand. Their other daughter goes to CLS.

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dr123
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Re: What to do to increase chances of a favorable outcome:

Postby dr123 » Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:48 pm

subtle wrote:
dr123 wrote:she should tell her parents to fuck off and retake, personally i'd rather graduate with debt at a t2 then from cooley



I guess it depends on your goals. There are a lot of lawyers (I say this because the legal community in Detroit is small enough for everyone to know everyone and everything about everyone else and this is what I've been told by both my mother and father who are attorneys) in the Detroit area who graduated from Cooley and Wayne and are doing well, but probably couldn't leave the Detroit area.

I don't understand at all why her parents want her to go right away. They've also said that they'd be willing to let her reapply next year and pay for a private tutor if she goes to a one-year grad program at Wayne. Am I mistaken or would work experience help her chances more than a one year graduate program? I mean, I feel like work experience would be looked on more favorably than a short graduate program even if she can't pull up her LSAT much with a private tutor (and, realistically speaking, I'm not sure she can. She also bombed both the SAT and ACT).

As for not understanding the differences between law schools, I feel like they have to understand. Their other daughter goes to CLS.


dude, i know the legal market in detroit pretty well and the only cooley grads ive seen doing well who are recent grads are grads of their parttime program who were already working professionals or graduated near the top of their class. Cooley alum are frequently beat out by Wayne State and MSU grads. I'd say UDM is a better option than cooley




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