Penn State 2011 Applicants Forum

[kartal]

Are any admitted students attending the Open House this weekend?

I'll be there

Any posted impressions would be most welcome--or pm me. I live on the West coast and am having trouble making this decision, and have limited funds available for travel. Penn State seems wonderful online.

The school's location is not attractive. It is in the middle of nowhere. It is not close to any metropolitan area. This creates a huge disadvantage with practical experience opportunities (i.e. externships) during 2L and 3L years along with job opportunities after 3L compared to Pitt Law and Temple Law.

I am not comfortable with the video conferencing idea. I personally would like to be in the same room with the professor lecturing the class.

I am also not happy with Penn State Law for not offering any in-state tuition rate to the taxpayers of PA despite the fact that it carries "State" as part of its name. What is the point of attending Penn State Law while Pitt Law and Temple Law are offering big discount to PA residents?

[jbarl1]

Are any admitted students attending the Open House this weekend?

I'll be there

Any posted impressions would be most welcome--or pm me. I live on the West coast and am having trouble making this decision, and have limited funds available for travel. Penn State seems wonderful online.

The school's location is not attractive. It is in the middle of nowhere. It is not close to any metropolitan area. This creates a huge disadvantage with practical experience opportunities (i.e. externships) during 2L and 3L years along with job opportunities after 3L compared to Pitt Law and Temple Law.

The Carlisle location is very close to Harrisburg and many students leave for the summer months and work in the location they wish to practice in in the future anyway. There are opportunities in State College (I will be working here this summer), but the Carlisle location offers better proximity to a city, so I always suggest that those who are concerned about the "rural" location should consider Carlisle over UP.

I am not comfortable with the video conferencing idea. I personally would like to be in the same room with the professor lecturing the class.

All first year classes are taught in person with a professor who works full time at your location. After your first year you can take some video conferenced classes, but I know people who avoid them altogether and haven't had many issues. The technology for video conferencing makes the experience much less dis-connected than it sounds. I believe most students feel about the same whether the class is conferenced or not, but it is a different classroom experience that some may have a hard time with.

I am also not happy with Penn State Law for not offering any in-state tuition rate to the taxpayers of PA despite the fact that it carries "State" as part of its name. What is the point of attending Penn State Law while Pitt Law and Temple Law are offering big discount to PA residents?

In-state tuition isn't offered because the school is essentially private. Dickinson School of Law is a very old law school that just recently began to associate itself with Penn State. Offering in-state tuition would mean higher tuition rates overall to cover the costs of operation. If you choose to pursue a joint degree, that tuition would likely receive an in-state discount.

I'm sorry that you seem to have had such a negative experience with Penn State Law. I am not attempting to discount your concerns with this post (they are all very valid), I'm only attempting to address them from a student perspective to provide some insight for those who are still considering Penn State and may have the same concerns you do. Good luck in law school!

[hehateme]

OK as a 3L at Penn State Law, UP campus, I hope I can shed some light. This will be my first and last post on this website.

Yes it is different to have two campuses. I've had video-based classes at Carslisle every semester in law school after my 1L year. And I have not regretted any of them. They make no difference to me whatsoever. If I want to take a class, I'm taking it - regardless of whether its in UP or Carlisle.

Second - Penn State Law just became the second highest ranked law school in Pennsylvania. Disclaimer - rankings don't mean much of anything if you are not in the top law schools. Define top law schools for yourself.

I'll tell you what does matter. Personal networking. No matter what school you go to or what activities you join, a known face will always mean more than a piece of paper (resume sent to law firm). This is true especially know given the market place as it is. With that being said, Temple and Pitt are in areas where you can network in their respective cities. However, if you go there you may be more limited to that city than as compared to Penn State. So if you want to keep your options open go to Penn State. If you're sure about practicing in a certain city - go there, even if its a tier three school. Seriously. After your first job, grades, law review, law school alma mater won't get you through the door. Your own two feet will.

That's why I can't stand these sites sometimes. People get on here and talk about percentages this and percentages that. But at the end of the day you make the percentage - because its you who shapes your own path. That is what is done at Penn State Law. That is what is done at other schools. I know a lot of you want to generalize things to make your decision seem like it was better informed. But trust me, going to Penn State was the best decision I could have made given my options in 2008. At the time I got into schools ranked higher than Penn State, some are still ranked higher. But I firmly believed in 2008 as I do now that this school's JD value will appreciate greater than any other JD diploma in the country.

For all those prospective students that have put deposits on several schools and are still weighing their options - my advice is simple - get on the train now before it takes off. I would not get in Penn State had I applied in 2011 instead of 2008. Imagine what Penn State will be when you graduate. Remember Penn State has a reputation to maintain - it will be an embarrassment to the school if Penn State Law turns out to be a bad law school. They will not let it happen.

Penn State has been the best place I've ever lived - and one of the more cheaper places. It was the number one party school in the country in 2008 and the safest metropolitan area (State College) in 2008. These statistics should not go hand in hand. But in Happy Valley they did. From the football to the outdoor opportunities to my friendships built here - this place has been incredible.

Is Penn State Law perfect? No. We still have some things to improve on - as does every law school. But if you choose Penn State your investment will be well worth the risk.

[Velvetvoice06]

HeHateMe...Thank You. I appreciate you*

[HeavenWood]

Is Penn State Law perfect? No. We still have some things to improve on - as does every law school. But if you choose Penn State your investment will be well worth the risk.

This all depends on how much you're investing and what you want to get out of law school. If you're attending Penn State on a scholarship and hope to work in Pennsylvania state government, or else practice in a small- or mid-sized firm in Harrisburg, York, or Lancaster, then Dickinson is the school for you.

If you hope to break into the Philadelphia or Pittsburgh markets, you would be better served attending Temple/Villanova or Pitt. Penn State grads can get jobs in the Eastern and Western edges of the state, but by foregoing the above options for Dickinson, one misses out on the (not insignificant opportunities) of networking and establishing/solidifying ties that attending schools in these cities provides. Going to Penn State is more likely to shut out these options than leave the two of them open.

[philanthropy]

Is Penn State Law perfect? No. We still have some things to improve on - as does every law school. But if you choose Penn State your investment will be well worth the risk.

This all depends on how much you're investing and what you want to get out of law school. If you're attending Penn State on a scholarship and hope to work in Pennsylvania state government, or else practice in a small- or mid-sized firm in Harrisburg, York, or Lancaster, then Dickinson is the school for you.

If you hope to break into the Philadelphia or Pittsburgh markets, you would be better served attending Temple/Villanova or Pitt. Penn State grads can get jobs in the Eastern and Western edges of the state, but by foregoing the above options for Dickinson, one misses out on the (not insignificant opportunities) of networking and establishing/solidifying ties that attending schools in these cities provides. Going to Penn State is more likely to shut out these options than leave the two of them open.

You know this bullsh*t about the jobs and networking etc being better at temple and villanova and pitt is simply that, bullsh*t.
Pitt and Temple are about to lose their beloved instate tuition and then we'll see how they compete with Penn State for students. Temple is in one of the worst neighborhoods I've ever been in... Pitt is a joke. And who the heck knows what's going on with Nova... they'll lie about it to US News, the ABA and, yes, even you. Penn State is the only school growing and improving every year.

Look at the employment statistics. PSU does as well or better than thoses other schools and places throughout the eastern seaboard and the country. This troll for Pitt and Temple is crazy.

If you want a top education in a beautiful place with a school that continues to improve and move up every year, you should go to Penn State.

This fool(Heaven Wood) has no idea what he's talking about. Zero. None. His unsubstantiated bs is just that.

[HeavenWood]

You know this bullsh*t about the jobs and networking etc being better at temple and villanova and pitt is simply that, bullsh*t.
Pitt and Temple are about to lose their beloved instate tuition and then we'll see how they compete with Penn State for students.

We don't know how much tuition will rise. Penn State will lose their in-state tuition as well, they've just chosen not to offer a discount to in-state law school students in the past (Dickinson Law could very well see an increase in their tuition as well).

Temple is in one of the worst neighborhoods I've ever been in...

And this is relevant how?

Pitt is a joke.

What a detailed, well-thought argument against Pitt Law.

And who the heck knows what's going on with Nova... they'll lie about it to US News, the ABA and, yes, even you.

This will make little to no difference in local hiring, at least in the short-term.

Penn State is the only school growing and improving every year.

Look at the employment statistics. PSU does as well or better than thoses other schools and places throughout the eastern seaboard and the country. This troll for Pitt and Temple is crazy.

Not acccording to these lovely charts (compiled right here on TLS):

http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 1&t=150681

(The stats are slightly outdated, but still provide a clear picture as to relative law school strength)

I'm too lazy/busy to post point-by-point how Temple and Pitt have better employment prospects than Penn State (the poster didn't include Villanova in his list), but I'll use salaries and full-time statistics as an indicator. Under 10% of Penn State grads are making over $50,000 a year in the private sector. Under 60% have full time jobs. By comparison, 20% of Temple grads make over $80,000 a year in the private sector. 80% have full time jobs. Just over 15% of Pitt grads are making over $62,000 a year in the private sector. 75% have full time jobs.

If you want a top education in a beautiful place with a school that continues to improve and move up every year, you should go to Penn State.

Improve in the rankings, sure.

This fool(Heaven Wood) has no idea what he's talking about. Zero. None. His unsubstantiated bs is just that.

My father conducts hiring at a Philadelphia midlaw. He will tell you firsthand that Temple and Villanova are markedly better schools for the Eastern Pennsylvania legal market. He's told me the score numerous times. If you choose not to take the opinions of a 20+ year attorney seriously, that's your business.

PS: The fact you have to resort to ad hominem attacks and make childish stabs at humor doesn't do much to make your case.

[jayman6]

I have actually accepted my scholarship offer at Penn State and plan to attend the UP campus, at least for my first year. So, on a lighter note, I'd like information about parking. Is there a parking pass to purchase? Does the law school have its own lot? Is there generally open parking, or am I better off using public transportation?

Thanks

[alexanderhamilton]

From an unnamed source of a un-named source:

My friend who is the law prof at Penn thinks that is the best option. She said this:

"Of those 3, I think his best bet would be Penn State. Penn State has been constantly going up in the rankings whereas Rutgers has been pretty stagnant or even has gone down in recent years. The students are actually doing pretty good on the job front. But, if he does choose Penn State, make sure he chooses the University park campus and not the Carlisle campus. The new professors that have been stolen from top schools around the country are all at the University park campus."

[HeavenWood]

From an unnamed source of a un-named source:

My friend who is the law prof at Penn thinks that is the best option. She said this:

"Of those 3, I think his best bet would be Penn State. Penn State has been constantly going up in the rankings whereas Rutgers has been pretty stagnant or even has gone down in recent years. The students are actually doing pretty good on the job front. But, if he does choose Penn State, make sure he chooses the University park campus and not the Carlisle campus. The new professors that have been stolen from top schools around the country are all at the University park campus."

What three? Penn State, Rutgers (which campus), and what else? Also, for what market?

[alexanderhamilton]

Rutgers Camden (10k 3.5 stip), Villanova (20k stip unknown), Penn State (unknown status) for the NJ and PA market (Philadelphia particularly)

[trayball23]

I like what I am hearing about PSU leaning there very hard

[jbarl1]

You know this bullsh*t about the jobs and networking etc being better at temple and villanova and pitt is simply that, bullsh*t.
Pitt and Temple are about to lose their beloved instate tuition and then we'll see how they compete with Penn State for students.

We don't know how much tuition will rise. Penn State will lose their in-state tuition as well, they've just chosen not to offer a discount to in-state law school students in the past (Dickinson Law could very well see an increase in their tuition as well).

A note about tuition: The Dean has said numerous times that the class size we have now and the tuition rate we have now is the correct balance to cover the expenses we need to cover, so we should not expect significant tuition fluctuations.

[HeavenWood]

You know this bullsh*t about the jobs and networking etc being better at temple and villanova and pitt is simply that, bullsh*t.
Pitt and Temple are about to lose their beloved instate tuition and then we'll see how they compete with Penn State for students.

We don't know how much tuition will rise. Penn State will lose their in-state tuition as well, they've just chosen not to offer a discount to in-state law school students in the past (Dickinson Law could very well see an increase in their tuition as well).

A note about tuition: The Dean has said numerous times that the class size we have now and the tuition rate we have now is the correct balance to cover the expenses we need to cover, so we should not expect significant tuition fluctuations.

I stand corrected.

[jbarl1]

I have actually accepted my scholarship offer at Penn State and plan to attend the UP campus, at least for my first year. So, on a lighter note, I'd like information about parking. Is there a parking pass to purchase? Does the law school have its own lot? Is there generally open parking, or am I better off using public transportation?

Thanks

As a first year student you cannot park at the law school lot (it is reserved for faculty, staff, 2Ls and 3Ls). You can purchase a commuter parking pass and park by the stadium and then (1) walk to the law school (10-15 mins), (2) take the shuttle to the law school (kind of a long ride because it only makes a loop around campus one way) (3) take a bus to about a block away from the law school and walk from there (5 minute walk). The majority of students walk from the commuter lot. The majority of those who live in the White Course Apartments on campus take a free bus to about a block away from the school and walk from there. There is open parking in the law school lot after 4pm and on weekends. There are 4 buses and 1 shuttle that run for free all around campus, so once you are on campus, it is easy to get anywhere you need to go. Also, many apartments come with bus passes and you can easily take a short bus ride from an off campus apartment to the campus and then walk to the school. Hope this helps!

[jbarl1]

You know this bullsh*t about the jobs and networking etc being better at temple and villanova and pitt is simply that, bullsh*t.
Pitt and Temple are about to lose their beloved instate tuition and then we'll see how they compete with Penn State for students.

We don't know how much tuition will rise. Penn State will lose their in-state tuition as well, they've just chosen not to offer a discount to in-state law school students in the past (Dickinson Law could very well see an increase in their tuition as well).

A note about tuition: The Dean has said numerous times that the class size we have now and the tuition rate we have now is the correct balance to cover the expenses we need to cover, so we should not expect significant tuition fluctuations.

I stand corrected.

I in no way mean to get in the middle of the debate you two have going on, as you have both made valid points, I just want to inject some facts where I can to clear up any misconceptions.

[HeavenWood]

I in no way mean to get in the middle of the debate you two have going on, as you have both made valid points, I just want to inject some facts where I can to clear up any misconceptions.

I appreciate you clearing that up, actually. It helps me give better advice in the future.

[jbarl1]

I in no way mean to get in the middle of the debate you two have going on, as you have both made valid points, I just want to inject some facts where I can to clear up any misconceptions.

I appreciate you clearing that up, actually. It helps me give better advice in the future.

That's what I like to hear!

[trayball23]

Wheres the best place for PSU law students to live... kinda late but any advice would be nice

[kartal]

Is Penn State Law perfect? No. We still have some things to improve on - as does every law school. But if you choose Penn State your investment will be well worth the risk.

This all depends on how much you're investing and what you want to get out of law school. If you're attending Penn State on a scholarship and hope to work in Pennsylvania state government, or else practice in a small- or mid-sized firm in Harrisburg, York, or Lancaster, then Dickinson is the school for you.

If you hope to break into the Philadelphia or Pittsburgh markets, you would be better served attending Temple/Villanova or Pitt. Penn State grads can get jobs in the Eastern and Western edges of the state, but by foregoing the above options for Dickinson, one misses out on the (not insignificant opportunities) of networking and establishing/solidifying ties that attending schools in these cities provides. Going to Penn State is more likely to shut out these options than leave the two of them open.

You know this bullsh*t about the jobs and networking etc being better at temple and villanova and pitt is simply that, bullsh*t.
Pitt and Temple are about to lose their beloved instate tuition and then we'll see how they compete with Penn State for students. Temple is in one of the worst neighborhoods I've ever been in... Pitt is a joke. And who the heck knows what's going on with Nova... they'll lie about it to US News, the ABA and, yes, even you. Penn State is the only school growing and improving every year.

Look at the employment statistics. PSU does as well or better than thoses other schools and places throughout the eastern seaboard and the country. This troll for Pitt and Temple is crazy.

If you want a top education in a beautiful place with a school that continues to improve and move up every year, you should go to Penn State.

This fool(Heaven Wood) has no idea what he's talking about. Zero. None. His unsubstantiated bs is just that.

You call Pitt Law joke? You cannot be serious!! I would take Pitt Law over Penn State Law without hesitation. My friend, it is LOCATION, LOCATION, and LOCATION!

Good luck with having valuable internships/externships and job prospects in University Park. Is there even a court in UP? Yes, maybe there is one for charging drunk undergrad kids of nation's #1 party school.

[jayman6]

I'm too lazy/busy to post point-by-point how Temple and Pitt have better employment prospects than Penn State (the poster didn't include Villanova in his list), but I'll use salaries and full-time statistics as an indicator. Under 10% of Penn State grads are making over $50,000 a year in the private sector. Under 60% have full time jobs. By comparison, 20% of Temple grads make over $80,000 a year in the private sector. 80% have full time jobs. Just over 15% of Pitt grads are making over $62,000 a year in the private sector. 75% have full time jobs.

I just want to point out that this is not necessarily true. Keep in mind that the survey says graduates KNOWN to be making a given salary. 10% of grads who responded to the survey are making over $50,000, but it's important to note that 55% are in the "public sectors+unemployed+unknown" sector. The first graph gives a much clearer picture. It shows that approximately 8% of respondents indicate they are unemployed. It seems that higher percentage of respondents indicated what type of job they have, but it also seems that a bunch of people just decided not to report their salary. Now, it would be easy to say that this is because they are making a low salary and are embarrassed to report it. However, I think there are probably a lot of people who think it's nobody's business but their own how much money they make. We don't really know enough to make conclusions and with the given data we can't draw those types of conclusions with much accuracy.

Also, it is not necessarily true that under 60% have full time jobs, and if it is true it is not necessarily a bad thing. First, the data only indicates that 20% of individuals report being employed part time. That is a large figure, but there is also 8% of graduates whose full/part time employment status is unknown. 6% are seeking another degree. So for those 6%, I wouldn't say that not being employed full time is necessarily a bad thing as they are pursuing other interests. I realize that the best possible outcome still leaves the number at about 70% for those employed full-time, but without knowing each individual situation who are we to say that part-time employment isn't what a particular individual was seeking in the first place?

I just think we're trying to draw too many conclusions from these numbers when there are still plenty of unknowns.

[jbarl1]

Is Penn State Law perfect? No. We still have some things to improve on - as does every law school. But if you choose Penn State your investment will be well worth the risk.

This all depends on how much you're investing and what you want to get out of law school. If you're attending Penn State on a scholarship and hope to work in Pennsylvania state government, or else practice in a small- or mid-sized firm in Harrisburg, York, or Lancaster, then Dickinson is the school for you.

If you hope to break into the Philadelphia or Pittsburgh markets, you would be better served attending Temple/Villanova or Pitt. Penn State grads can get jobs in the Eastern and Western edges of the state, but by foregoing the above options for Dickinson, one misses out on the (not insignificant opportunities) of networking and establishing/solidifying ties that attending schools in these cities provides. Going to Penn State is more likely to shut out these options than leave the two of them open.

You know this bullsh*t about the jobs and networking etc being better at temple and villanova and pitt is simply that, bullsh*t.
Pitt and Temple are about to lose their beloved instate tuition and then we'll see how they compete with Penn State for students. Temple is in one of the worst neighborhoods I've ever been in... Pitt is a joke. And who the heck knows what's going on with Nova... they'll lie about it to US News, the ABA and, yes, even you. Penn State is the only school growing and improving every year.

Look at the employment statistics. PSU does as well or better than thoses other schools and places throughout the eastern seaboard and the country. This troll for Pitt and Temple is crazy.

If you want a top education in a beautiful place with a school that continues to improve and move up every year, you should go to Penn State.

This fool(Heaven Wood) has no idea what he's talking about. Zero. None. His unsubstantiated bs is just that.

You call Pitt Law joke? You cannot be serious!! I would take Pitt Law over Penn State Law without hesitation. My friend, it is LOCATION, LOCATION, and LOCATION!

Good luck with having valuable internships/externships and job prospects in University Park. Is there even a court in UP? Yes, maybe there is one for charging drunk undergrad kids of nation's #1 party school.

There are a lot of great internship/externship/clinical opportunities available to Penn State students. Many of these work out of Harrisburg, which is close to the Carlisle campus. There are opportunities in University Park as well and students have been successful in finding opportunities in fields that they are interested in.

I know there is a lot of debate about which PA schools offer the best employment opportunities. The opinions on that subject are really based on where someone wants to work, the connections they may have and what field they want to go into. No one school is right for every student. I hope we can move this thread back to a more mature discussion for people who are applying to Penn State.

[PSULawAdmissionsDean]

I really encourage positive discourse in this forum. Many of the points above have some validity. Much of it is about perspective. Pitt, Temple, Villanova and Penn State all offer quality programs with overlap in job prospects and opportunities. Each school has strengths and weaknesses that may resonate with any particular individual. Each school is also the perfect school for someone. It's important to know what is important to you. We expect you to choose the school that you believe will best facilitate your future success. Law school is a huge investment and making the right choice for you is paramount.

Obviously, I believe that Penn State is a great choice for many applicants. I don't quite get why posters who've obviously decided to go elsewhere feel it's necessary to come in to this forum to denegrate Penn State, but I respect their right to do so.

I wouldn't put too much weight on any set of statistics or a particular comment. As one of the posters indicates above much of your success later in your career will be determined by how well you do in law school, where you want to be, and what you want to do. I don't think it's fair to say or even imply that our graduates are stuck in central Pennsylvania. It's simply not true. Penn State aspires to serve a national market and has made significant investments and strides in doing so. So, while your impression may be that we won't place well in Philadelphia or Pittsburgh, we certainly place students in great jobs in those markets and many others.

It is a difficult time to secure legal employment no matter where you go to school and I am sure that many law students at all of the schools listed above are struggling and worried. The fact is if they apply themselves to their studies and their job search, they will be successful coming out of any of these schools.

It's very easy in an anonymous forum to be inconsiderate of others. I hope that we can maintain a respect for those who have made an informed and justifiable choice even if it differs from our own.

Jay Shively
Dean for Admissions and Financial Aid
Penn State Law

[alexanderhamilton]

So a general question, how necessary is having a car on campus? Particularly if you want to travel between Carlisle and Harrisburg for an internship? Is there any public transport available?

[jayman6]

I have actually accepted my scholarship offer at Penn State and plan to attend the UP campus, at least for my first year. So, on a lighter note, I'd like information about parking. Is there a parking pass to purchase? Does the law school have its own lot? Is there generally open parking, or am I better off using public transportation?

Thanks

As a first year student you cannot park at the law school lot (it is reserved for faculty, staff, 2Ls and 3Ls). You can purchase a commuter parking pass and park by the stadium and then (1) walk to the law school (10-15 mins), (2) take the shuttle to the law school (kind of a long ride because it only makes a loop around campus one way) (3) take a bus to about a block away from the law school and walk from there (5 minute walk). The majority of students walk from the commuter lot. The majority of those who live in the White Course Apartments on campus take a free bus to about a block away from the school and walk from there. There is open parking in the law school lot after 4pm and on weekends. There are 4 buses and 1 shuttle that run for free all around campus, so once you are on campus, it is easy to get anywhere you need to go. Also, many apartments come with bus passes and you can easily take a short bus ride from an off campus apartment to the campus and then walk to the school. Hope this helps!

How much is the commuter parking pass? Thanks.