OU 2011 applicants

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patrickd139
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Re: OU 2011 applicants

Postby patrickd139 » Fri Dec 03, 2010 12:48 am

OklahomasOK wrote:
patrickd139 wrote:
OklahomasOK wrote:Accepted via phone-call from admissions tonight. Nice to see my alma matter make a personal gesture. Mentioned that scholarship committee will meet soon, this will be crucial for me. Already paid $80,000+ for undergrad, they better pick it up if they want me to stay.

Congrats. If this cycle is anything like mine couple years ago, you should be in for some money.


Music to my ears, I would love to have instate tuition.

Graduating debt free would be a distinct possibility, and would be an incredible feat.

I can't imagine you not getting in-state tuition, based on your numbers, but don't hold me to that. Good luck and I hope it works out for you!

mrwarre85
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Re: OU 2011 applicants

Postby mrwarre85 » Fri Dec 03, 2010 4:48 pm

In today by phone call --2.9 164
Call first said they had a question about my ap, wanted to know if I'd signed up for their EAP and if thats what I wanted. Then when I said yeah it sounded like a good deal, she said ok well you've been accepted into that program.

Not sure if this means I barely snuck in, but sounds cool and I'm excited either way.

Patrick you know anyone by chance who has gone through the EAP?

Boomer Sooner

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patrickd139
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Re: OU 2011 applicants

Postby patrickd139 » Fri Dec 03, 2010 7:45 pm

mrwarre85 wrote:In today by phone call --2.9 164
Call first said they had a question about my ap, wanted to know if I'd signed up for their EAP and if thats what I wanted. Then when I said yeah it sounded like a good deal, she said ok well you've been accepted into that program.

Not sure if this means I barely snuck in, but sounds cool and I'm excited either way.

Patrick you know anyone by chance who has gone through the EAP?

Boomer Sooner

First, congrats. I didn't go through myself, but know lots of people did. What are your specific questions about it?

mrwarre85
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Re: OU 2011 applicants

Postby mrwarre85 » Mon Dec 06, 2010 3:58 pm

hmm yeah I guess like how big is the class and will all the other kids in there have junk GPA's like myself? confused on whether this was a probationary status program or not.. Also whats the curve at OU and will this class be curved any different becuase it is meant to be a confidence booster (according to phone call) for those that are enrolled? I want to try for high grades and hope we wouldn't all get B's in this class.. (from the guy who made C's in undergrad).

But it sounds great because i'd like to get started this summer and getting five credits out of the way sounds nice.

amg131s
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Re: OU 2011 applicants

Postby amg131s » Mon Dec 06, 2010 4:01 pm

mrwarre85 wrote:hmm yeah I guess like how big is the class and will all the other kids in there have junk GPA's like myself? confused on whether this was a probationary status program or not.. Also whats the curve at OU and will this class be curved any different becuase it is meant to be a confidence booster (according to phone call) for those that are enrolled? I want to try for high grades and hope we wouldn't all get B's in this class.. (from the guy who made C's in undergrad).

But it sounds great because i'd like to get started this summer and getting five credits out of the way sounds nice.


what?

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Re: OU 2011 applicants

Postby mrwarre85 » Mon Dec 06, 2010 4:08 pm

Response to post above. sorry for consfusion.

amg131s wrote:
mrwarre85 wrote:hmm yeah I guess like how big is the class and will all the other kids in there have junk GPA's like myself? confused on whether this was a probationary status program or not.. Also whats the curve at OU and will this class be curved any different becuase it is meant to be a confidence booster (according to phone call) for those that are enrolled? I want to try for high grades and hope we wouldn't all get B's in this class.. (from the guy who made C's in undergrad).

But it sounds great because i'd like to get started this summer and getting five credits out of the way sounds nice.


what?

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Re: OU 2011 applicants

Postby WarChief » Mon Dec 06, 2010 5:22 pm

edit
Last edited by WarChief on Fri Apr 04, 2014 10:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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patrickd139
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Re: OU 2011 applicants

Postby patrickd139 » Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:23 pm

mrwarre85 wrote:hmm yeah I guess like how big is the class and will all the other kids in there have junk GPA's like myself? confused on whether this was a probationary status program or not.. Also whats the curve at OU and will this class be curved any different becuase it is meant to be a confidence booster (according to phone call) for those that are enrolled? I want to try for high grades and hope we wouldn't all get B's in this class.. (from the guy who made C's in undergrad).

But it sounds great because i'd like to get started this summer and getting five credits out of the way sounds nice.

Full disclaimer: First, I did NOT enter through the EAP program. Second, the following is based on what I've heard from other students who did go through the program, and observed on my own. Please take the anecdotal information for what it is: anecdotal information. Like everything regarding law school (and life?), do your own research and make an informed decision.

First, I'd like to give a shout out to any admissions committee/admissions staff members who might be reading this. Feel free to jump in and fix any incorrect information. This forum works best with input and participation from both sides to increase the accuracy and transparency of the admissions process. :D

Link to the official information from OU on the EAP program

Class size. It varies. A couple years ago it was around 15; last year almost 30 started.

It is not a "probationary status program," as you are not required to do anything specific during the summer to continue during the fall. However, the LSAT/GPAs from EAP kids are not reported for rankings purposes. Also, you are limited to taking two courses: one has a reputation for being a joke, the other is a legitimate full-fledged criminal law course, taught the last several years by one of the best professors at OU (very much not a joke).

Who do they offer the program to? My understanding is that the program offers three recruiting tools: an early entry program for students who want to start in May as opposed to August (similar to Baylor, but without some important aspects); a way to bring in students who could not otherwise make the cut (see below); and (Full disclosure again: this third one is just my personal plug for the program, not sure if the school actually uses this) a relatively low risk option for those who want to test law school out and not be locked into an entire year of classes.

Curve. The long and short of it is that there is no established curve at OU. This evidently causes problems every year, as it apparently creates disparities among section representation in class rank. For instance, last year, there were four sections of ~50 students. Of the top 10 people overall in the class, my section represented as few as 3, or as many as 6, depending on whose word you took. Since we're not supposed to talk about grades, and since curves are not published, it's useless to argue. Either way, it led to some (not atypical) bickering from sections whose professors allegedly graded on a harder curve. Not sure what to make of it, but that's the word on the street.

Next, a caveat. I took your comment specifically about getting Bs v. Cs to mean that you would be gunning for As in law school. While this is a laudable goal, it's a bit of a laughable one, also. The cutoff for making the Dean's List at OU is a B average. Last year's Fall Dean's List encompassed ~37% of the class. Translation: A- average puts you in about the top 5-7% of the class. That's tough to do, and as the Transfer Forum will tell you, not something you should plan on when making a law school admissions decision.

As for the EAP curve, the professor who taught the course last the couple years applied a pretty lenient curve, IIRC. Keep in mind, though, that your competition in the EAP program is allegedly less intense. My understanding is that most EAP students are usually splitters, reverse splitters, or borderline candidates for admission, though I don't think the school publishes that information. This can translate into a rude awakening when your competition increases during the fall and your grades reflect that.

Overall EAP stuff. The school will be quick to tell you several things about the program. First, they love it. The perception among at least some of the professors is that the EAP provides admission for students who would not otherwise have had the opportunity to go to OU. Depending on what you think personally about increasing access to legal education (a topic well-covered on this forum a million times over), this is either a very good thing, or a very bad thing.

Second, the school points out that you find EAP students at all points on the curve after first year grading is done. I'm sure this is technically true; as they would seemingly have no reason to lie about it. However, I am aware of only a limited number of EAP students on the dean's list from my 1L year. None in the top 10 students overall were EAP, to my recollection. No EAP students AmJur-ed (top score) a class during 1L year, that I know of. Also, I don't remember seeing many EAP kids interview on campus. Again, just observations, no hard facts to back them up (other than the dean's list bit, which is published here).

Finally, the only real negative stigma for EAP kids among fall matriculants is that EAP students have one fewer class/exam in the spring, since they take one additional class/exam the summer before. I personally think this is petty, but some students think this "makes it easier" for EAP students during the spring semester when everyone is doing graded LRW, brief-writing, moot court, classes, trying to find a summer internship, etc. Like I said in the previous paragraph, the unofficial anecdotal numbers don't seem to back up any significant advantage, but it's there nonetheless.

If anyone has more specific questions about the program, feel free to fire away or PM me and I'll do my best and/or try to find someone willing to answer them who actually went through the program.

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Re: OU 2011 applicants

Postby mrwarre85 » Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:34 pm

Awesome info Patrick thanks a bunch. Sounds like a great program for me and I hope to see you next year at OU. Wish me luck in getting those B+'s.

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Re: OU 2011 applicants

Postby mrwarre85 » Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:16 pm

Received a nice scholly from TU in the mail. New question. The published data on first year employment shows that one can expect to earn significantly more with a TU degree than an OU--I believe it was 70,000 vs 57,500. I know TU law is on the rise (just moved into the third tier) but OU has always been considered ones best bet in Oklahoma. OU is in the second tier, and shows a 159 median LSAT vs a 155 median LSAT for TU from last year.

How accurate are these employment figures? I would have imagined that both schools would have reported an average salery of around 57,500, and I was suprised when I read the higher figure for the University of Tulsa.

Any other comments on OU vs TU from the board?

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patrickd139
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Re: OU 2011 applicants

Postby patrickd139 » Fri Dec 10, 2010 2:04 pm

mrwarre85 wrote:Received a nice scholly from TU in the mail. New question. The published data on first year employment shows that one can expect to earn significantly more with a TU degree than an OU--I believe it was 70,000 vs 57,500. I know TU law is on the rise (just moved into the third tier) but OU has always been considered ones best bet in Oklahoma. OU is in the second tier, and shows a 159 median LSAT vs a 155 median LSAT for TU from last year.

How accurate are these employment figures? I would have imagined that both schools would have reported an average salery of around 57,500, and I was suprised when I read the higher figure for the University of Tulsa.

Any other comments on OU vs TU from the board?

General perception (limited only to law students at OU):

OU>>>>>TU>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>OCU

OU is the flagship law school in the state. If you want to practice in Oklahoma (practice=midlaw, but especially if you want to be a DA) I can't imagine anyone telling you to go to any other school outside the T14 or UT. If you can't get in to OU, and you want to practice in Tulsa or eastern Oklahoma, then TU might not be a bad choice.

If you can't get into OU, and you want to practice in Oklahoma City, or you have a full-time job and cannot afford to 3 years off to go to OU, then OCU might be worth it with significant scholarship.

Again, that's just the impression I've gotten as an OOS law student at OU. I'll happily defer to others who know more specifically about Oklahoma job market. As for TU being "on the rise," not so sure about that. I think it will "rise" only as far as the lower T2, if at all. No way it surpasses OU in prestige or numbers unless Tulsa somehow turns into a powerhouse legal market. Extremely unlikely.

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Re: OU 2011 applicants

Postby amg131s » Fri Dec 10, 2010 2:35 pm

patrickd139 wrote:
mrwarre85 wrote:Received a nice scholly from TU in the mail. New question. The published data on first year employment shows that one can expect to earn significantly more with a TU degree than an OU--I believe it was 70,000 vs 57,500. I know TU law is on the rise (just moved into the third tier) but OU has always been considered ones best bet in Oklahoma. OU is in the second tier, and shows a 159 median LSAT vs a 155 median LSAT for TU from last year.

How accurate are these employment figures? I would have imagined that both schools would have reported an average salery of around 57,500, and I was suprised when I read the higher figure for the University of Tulsa.

Any other comments on OU vs TU from the board?

General perception (limited only to law students at OU):

OU>>>>>TU>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>OCU

OU is the flagship law school in the state. If you want to practice in Oklahoma (practice=midlaw, but especially if you want to be a DA) I can't imagine anyone telling you to go to any other school outside the T14 or UT. If you can't get in to OU, and you want to practice in Tulsa or eastern Oklahoma, then TU might not be a bad choice.

If you can't get into OU, and you want to practice in Oklahoma City, or you have a full-time job and cannot afford to 3 years off to go to OU, then OCU might be worth it with significant scholarship.

Again, that's just the impression I've gotten as an OOS law student at OU. I'll happily defer to others who know more specifically about Oklahoma job market. As for TU being "on the rise," not so sure about that. I think it will "rise" only as far as the lower T2, if at all. No way it surpasses OU in prestige or numbers unless Tulsa somehow turns into a powerhouse legal market. Extremely unlikely.


being from the midwest, i've never heard anyone put tu and okc on the same level as ou, or mizzou, or arkansas, or ku, or... well, you get the point. tu has always been for the kids that couldn't get in elsewhere. there, i said it. not trying to hurt anyone's feelings, it's just the truth.

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Re: OU 2011 applicants

Postby amg131s » Fri Dec 10, 2010 2:47 pm

patrick: i'm thinking about attending ou law. interested in the emphasis placed on native american law. my research area during graduate school has been on the economics of legalized gambling, with a lot of that centered around indian reservation casinos. any thoughts on the native american studies at ou?

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Re: OU 2011 applicants

Postby mrwarre85 » Fri Dec 10, 2010 4:16 pm

So I guess those employement figures are off then..

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patrickd139
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Re: OU 2011 applicants

Postby patrickd139 » Fri Dec 10, 2010 4:32 pm

amg131s wrote:patrick: i'm thinking about attending ou law. interested in the emphasis placed on native american law. my research area during graduate school has been on the economics of legalized gambling, with a lot of that centered around indian reservation casinos. any thoughts on the native american studies at ou?

First, a disclaimer: I do not condone choosing a law school based on a school's "specialization." If nothing else, you may change your mind later and not be able to get the job opportunities you want. It makes even less sense to choose a law school based on an area of research interest, especially when you already have graduate experience in the area as a background before law school.

That said, OU seems to have a fairly strong curriculum in Native American studies. I don't know how much of that is based on the gambling industry as opposed to just the separate, parallel legal system Tribes have in general. Browsing the course descriptions on their main site, I see courses on Federal Indian law, a Federal Indian Law Externship placement, Native American Natural Resources, and Tribal Courts/Tribal Law. Here's the link. I don't think that's exactly what you're looking for, but it describes the gist of the courses offered right now. There's not a formal Native American Law "specialization" that I'm aware of, although the website touts some sort of JD/MA in American Indian Studies. (Not sure what that is, would suggest calling Susan Wilson in admissions if you're interested.)

Overall, it sounds like you've got an area of interest for research, and possible scholarship (in the writing, not $$, sense). Sure, it's based on Native American aspects due to the intersection of legalized gambling and Tribe casinos. But it also (presumably) intersects with federal gambling law, economics, business, etc. OU is strong (maybe stronger than other schools, who knows, really) in the NA aspect about that, but not necessarily the other areas.

I would suggest you go to the best law school you can. If that's OU, great. If not, you're hardly at a disadvantage. More than half the courses (torts, evidence, crim pro, etc.) are going to be the same at any law school. You can always target your research and on the specific area you've identified. What other schools are you considering?

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Re: OU 2011 applicants

Postby patrickd139 » Fri Dec 10, 2010 4:42 pm

mrwarre85 wrote:So I guess those employement figures are off then..

Other than the fact that one is from 2007 and one is from 2008, I'm not sure. Employment statistics are a) self-reported, and b) notoriously gamed. I wouldn't put much stock, if any, in them.

Anecdotally, I can't imagine the true statistics, aggregated over the last 10 years or so, for each school are going to show that Tulsa grads make more than OU grads. But I suppose it's possible. If those are the actual statistics, they could also be a one year anomaly, or just a typo. Bullet point: don't base your decision of which law school to attend on salary numbers at the bottom of TLS's profiles ;)

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Re: OU 2011 applicants

Postby OklahomasOK » Sat Dec 11, 2010 3:46 pm

Got my admissions packet today.

OU is the only school that has thus far stepped to the plate and reached out to me. My alma mater is pushing awfully hard for another 3 years of my money.

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Re: OU 2011 applicants

Postby mrwarre85 » Wed Dec 15, 2010 5:52 pm

just got an email from DU telling me that I have a full tuition scholarship. would rather go to OU but its going to be hard to be able to turn down that money. this whole law school thing is going to be such a hard decision...

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Re: OU 2011 applicants

Postby mrwarre85 » Thu Dec 16, 2010 3:17 pm

Any OU vs DU preferences or thoughts from the board? I feel like both are regional, but with ties to Oklahoma should be able to come back and find work if they would like.

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Re: OU 2011 applicants

Postby patrickd139 » Thu Dec 16, 2010 9:29 pm

mrwarre85 wrote:Any OU vs DU preferences or thoughts from the board? I feel like both are regional, but with ties to Oklahoma should be able to come back and find work if they would like.

Get a full-time, non-mid-law job? Maybe. Get a SA position if you're not in the top 5% of DU's class? Doubtful.

Both are definitely regional. Check with the career services office (not the admissions office) at DU and see where they place their summer students. Ask them specifically how many and where they placed students in Oklahoma. Be persistent: there's a difference between "Do you place well in Oklahoma?" and "How many students found paid summer work in Oklahoma, and with whom did they work?

Also, I would imagine it's easier to get a job in Oklahoma coming from DU with ties than it would be to get a job in Denver coming from OU with no ties; but I have not statistics to back up that assertion.

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Re: OU 2011 applicants

Postby mrwarre85 » Sun Dec 19, 2010 1:25 pm

patrickd139 wrote:
mrwarre85 wrote:Any OU vs DU preferences or thoughts from the board? I feel like both are regional, but with ties to Oklahoma should be able to come back and find work if they would like.

Get a full-time, non-mid-law job? Maybe. Get a SA position if you're not in the top 5% of DU's class? Doubtful.

Both are definitely regional. Check with the career services office (not the admissions office) at DU and see where they place their summer students. Ask them specifically how many and where they placed students in Oklahoma. Be persistent: there's a difference between "Do you place well in Oklahoma?" and "How many students found paid summer work in Oklahoma, and with whom did they work?

Also, I would imagine it's easier to get a job in Oklahoma coming from DU with ties than it would be to get a job in Denver coming from OU with no ties; but I have not statistics to back up that assertion.


I don't think DU places anyone in Oklahoma-- it is more regional that OU because OU does place in northern Texas, and frankly gives you some minute chance in a mid-sized/small firm everywhere because everyone has heard of it (a big thank you to the football team). My girlfriends parents live in central Texas and had never heard of the University of Denver, but OU had the same name recognition as their own Universities in Texas. My girlfriend also wouldn't mind living in Dallas and she hates Denver/cold weather.

I'm wondering if the subjective (read feminine) will comprise my objectively better deal in Denver.

If only OU would offer me some mulah..

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Re: OU 2011 applicants

Postby amg131s » Sun Dec 19, 2010 4:14 pm

got my acceptance call on friday.

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BigBuckey
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Re: OU 2011 applicants

Postby BigBuckey » Mon Dec 20, 2010 6:05 pm

I have been waitlisted via email.

LSAT: 156
LSDAS GPA: 3.81

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CSCS Trainer
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Re: OU 2011 applicants

Postby CSCS Trainer » Mon Dec 20, 2010 8:45 pm

Got my rejection today via email. I'll say this, they didn't waste any time, went complete 12/6. Much better than waiting months for these other schools.

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Re: OU 2011 applicants

Postby NU_Jet55 » Tue Dec 21, 2010 1:36 pm

Not going to law school at all > going to Denver on full scholly

There are just too many people that will graduate from Denver and never practice law and end up doing something they could have done with their undergrad degree. Unless you're one of the lucky few, it's a waste of 3 years.

Also, lay prestige matters very little in th legal world. Believe it or not, OU's football team is not going to help you get a legal job.

And lol @ an ou law degree giving you a chance at a firm job "everywhere." Literally lol'd at that one.




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