OU 2011 applicants Forum

[patrickd139]

Patrick, I'mma PM you a question.

Fire away.

Bro, that was like 5 weeks ago. I assume it was about my GULC alumnus interview.

Touché. This is why you should pay attention to the post date, kids. Hope it went well.

[isaiah6v8]

Moot court is over, and finals are about to begin, if you have any questions for the current 1L's now is the time. Patrick usually has the answers everyone seeks though, so ask him. How many on here are planning on attending in the fall? Look forward to meeting you!

[IHaveLawyers]

I got a question. Why are they taking so long with my app? FML!

[nomames]

How can there be so few people talking about OU? You'd think no one was planning on attending this school. Does anyone know how this school places in Texas? More specifically, would it be a better choice to attend this school rather than the one T3 and many T4s all over texas?

[patrickd139]

How can there be so few people talking about OU? You'd think no one was planning on attending this school. Does anyone know how this school places in Texas? More specifically, would it be a better choice to attend this school rather than the one T3 and many T4s all over texas?

Do not come to OU if you want to get back to Texas, regardless of what you might hear to the contrary.
Edited for grammar.

[nomames]

How can there be so few people talking about OU? You'd think no one was planning on attending this school. Does anyone know how this school places in Texas? More specifically, would it be a better choice to attend this school rather than the one T3 and many T4s all over texas?

Do not come to OU if you want to get back to Texas. No matter what you might hear otherwise.

Ouch, that bad

[patrickd139]

How can there be so few people talking about OU? You'd think no one was planning on attending this school. Does anyone know how this school places in Texas? More specifically, would it be a better choice to attend this school rather than the one T3 and many T4s all over texas?

Do not come to OU if you want to get back to Texas. No matter what you might hear otherwise.

Ouch, that bad

Not that you can't. Clearly it can be done. But play the odds on this one if you're intending to stay in Texas, especially if you're from Oklahoma.

[nomames]

How can there be so few people talking about OU? You'd think no one was planning on attending this school. Does anyone know how this school places in Texas? More specifically, would it be a better choice to attend this school rather than the one T3 and many T4s all over texas?

Do not come to OU if you want to get back to Texas. No matter what you might hear otherwise.

Ouch, that bad

Not that you can't. Clearly it can be done. But play the odds on this one if you're intending to stay in Texas, especially if you're from Oklahoma.

I get what your saying. I'm sure it also has alot to do with what your looking for and where in Texas. Big law in dallas and houston will be slim, but texas is a big place and middle of nowhere, tx doesnt care where you got your degree from. So why not get a Texas T3 or T4 school degree if it holds as much weight as a T1 or T2 school from another state no one cares about. I just figured OU is so close to texas and the dfw that it would have more clout there.

[patrickd139]

I just figured OU is so close to texas and the dfw that it would have more clout there.

One would think...

[isaiah6v8]

I think Patrick is right, but obviously, if you are from Texas and have good connections in law and to the state, then it changes the approach. However, OU does hold OK pretty strong.

[mrwarre85]

I would think if one was not able to get into UT, SMU, UH, and Baylor, that OU >> TT for Dallas. Or, maybe OU = TT for Dallas. Yeah maybe the last one. I mean OU is actually closer to Dallas than TT -- Lubbuck is right south of bum-fuck Egypt.

In my spot, as a former Dallas resident, I am 1.OU 2.Baylor for Dallas. I know it would be much easier to come from Baylor, but the education would cost me another 110k down there plus I would be much happier in Norman/South OKC for three years. (Sidebar: I was waitlisted at UH-- surprised actually)

If I was top 25% at OU and I networked my ass off with OU alumni in the DFW area you guys think that would work out?

I know top 25% is quite an assumption but lets just let that one slide for arguments sake.

[EmployedAlumni2010]

Please take what any one student says with a grain of salt. I went to OU Law. I graduated May 2010 and I am happily and gainfully employed. Not everyone has the same experience, but I LOVED my time at OU. I found the staff, students, and faculty to be helpful and caring. Of course they want you to get a job, it is bad for them if you don't, so anyone who says otherwise is just crazy. They cannot however GET or GIVE you a job. OU Law promised me the opportunity to earn a law degree and support while doing it. That is all. The jobs you have to go get for yourself. They will help in anyway they can, but at the end of the day, it is your responsibility to go get the job you want. No one is going to hand it to you. Your grades, your attitude, and experience are what will set you apart.

By the way, I took a poll, so this is based on some actual research and not just on some disgruntled student's opinion. I have at least 10 classmates working in Texas. There are about 10 more working there from the class before. There are several students clerking in Texas this summer. We invite Texas companies up to interview students on our campus. They do come and they do hire people. I am talking like Baker and Botts. Chesapeake hires attorneys and attorney landmen for their Fort Worth office as well. You can get a job in Texas with an OU Law degree. You can get a job anywhere. We have grads in all 50 states and several countries. You can't just sit around and wait for one though. You have to go get it. I think that is true about any degree, especially in the current job market. Would you rather be applying for jobs with a law degree or without? Exactly!

[EmployedAlumni2010]

I would think if one was not able to get into UT, SMU, UH, and Baylor, that OU >> TT for Dallas. Or, maybe OU = TT for Dallas. Yeah maybe the last one. I mean OU is actually closer to Dallas than TT -- Lubbuck is right south of bum-fuck Egypt.

In my spot, as a former Dallas resident, I am 1.OU 2.Baylor for Dallas. I know it would be much easier to come from Baylor, but the education would cost me another 110k down there plus I would be much happier in Norman/South OKC for three years. (Sidebar: I was waitlisted at UH-- surprised actually)

If I was top 25% at OU and I networked my ass off with OU alumni in the DFW area you guys think that would work out?

I know top 25% is quite an assumption but lets just let that one slide for arguments sake.

That's the right attitude, you have to work for it, not just expect your degree to get you a job.

[OklahomasOK]

I'm planning on OU barring a miracle (aka getting off the WL at either WashU, Hastings, or Davis).

[patrickd139]

By the way, I took a poll, so this is based on some actual research and not just on some disgruntled student's opinion. I have at least 10 classmates working in Texas. There are about 10 more working there from the class before. There are several students clerking in Texas this summer. We invite Texas companies up to interview students on our campus. They do come and they do hire people. I am talking like Baker and Botts. Chesapeake hires attorneys and attorney landmen for their Fort Worth office as well. You can get a job in Texas with an OU Law degree. You can get a job anywhere. We have grads in all 50 states and several countries. You can't just sit around and wait for one though. You have to go get it. I think that is true about any degree, especially in the current job market. Would you rather be applying for jobs with a law degree or without? Exactly!

First, I appreciate your time to come back and post. However, I find that your post is a little misleading, as the vast majority of students on TLS are looking to land biglaw or equivalent jobs, not just any job in Texas.

There are exactly three people who have a shot at Dallas or Houston biglaw in my class of exactly 200. One is the number 1 or 2 person in the class, the other has passed the patent bar with significant patent experience and is URM, and the third has a significant connection at the firm s/he is working at this summer.

There are only two students with an Art. III clerkship in Texas this year from OU, not several. For a point of reference, that's as many clerks in Texas as OU Law usually placed total for next year. The year before that, I'm not sure there were any Art. III clerks from OU.

As for firms from Texas coming to OU to interview for SA positions, there was exactly one firm last year, Thompson and Knight. And they didn't come to OU to interview; students had to go to Texas on our own dime, and I think they pre-screened 4 students. None of them received an offer.

There was also one company, BNSF, which interviewed two students for a non-placing internship in FW. Neither student received an offer. Yes, Chesapeake does occasionally (read: rarely) hire landmen for their FW office. A landman is also a non-legal position, which is neither biglaw nor in-house.

Can you get a degree from OU and still get a job in Texas? Absolutely. For the lucky few with prior connections, membership to the patent bar, or the number 1 or 2 person in the class, you can even snag biglaw. This is all rosy, and exactly the type of stories admissions and career services offices across the country at T2 law schools love to blow out of proportion. But it still doesn't excuse the fact that when you look at it statistically, about 1-2% of graduates have those opportunities available to them from OU.

Especially if you're considering OU at sticker and want to go back to Texas, do you really want to bet thousands of dollars on a 1-2% chance of getting a job which will allow you pay off your student loans and live comfortably?

[patrickd139]

If I was top 25% at OU and I networked my ass off with OU alumni in the DFW area you guys think that would work out?

I know top 25% is quite an assumption but lets just let that one slide for arguments sake.

You'll have to be at least top 25% and one hell of a networker to land biglaw, or probably midlaw, in Dallas. Serious question: when do you see yourself having time to network in Dallas while you're in central Oklahoma going through law school?

[mrwarre85]

If I was top 25% at OU and I networked my ass off with OU alumni in the DFW area you guys think that would work out?

I know top 25% is quite an assumption but lets just let that one slide for arguments sake.

You'll have to be at least top 25% and one hell of a networker to land biglaw, or probably midlaw, in Dallas. Serious question: when do you see yourself having time to network in Dallas while you're in central Oklahoma going through law school?

Dear Ms. Debbie Downer,

The summer?

Sincerely,

Lost and confused 0L

[amg131s]

If I was top 25% at OU and I networked my ass off with OU alumni in the DFW area you guys think that would work out?

I know top 25% is quite an assumption but lets just let that one slide for arguments sake.

You'll have to be at least top 25% and one hell of a networker to land biglaw, or probably midlaw, in Dallas. Serious question: when do you see yourself having time to network in Dallas while you're in central Oklahoma going through law school?

Dear Ms. Debbie Downer,

i have to agree here patrick. while your comments are extremely insightful, they do have a very negative tone. i don't know if you're having a difficult time in the summer employment market or trouble forming meaningful connections in the ok legal market, but you seem slightly disgruntled, generally speaking.
i'll be attending ou in the fall. i'm very excited about starting this journey and i hope this "debbie downer" attitude doesn't rub off on me.

[byronmullens]

I think Patrick has the correct perspective betting on long odds is not smart, however if you are comfortable in OKC or Tulsa practicing then OU is a great choice. Don't expect to land a Texas job from OU, its really hard when you are at a school out of the market. The mobility of law degrees in general are rather limited, I think its better to be realistic going in than be disappointed on the way out. Hiring in recent years has changed, a good example is federal govt. legal positions even in Oklahoma are now hiring UT, Duke, Vandy, and Michigan grads where in years past it was TU, OU and OCU grads for entire offices. That said at least OU in the Oklahoma legal community is held far above TU and OCU.

[Flips88]

I think Patrick has the correct perspective betting on long odds is not smart, however if you are comfortable in OKC or Tulsa practicing then OU is a great choice. Don't expect to land a Texas job from OU, its really hard when you are at a school out of the market. The mobility of law degrees in general are rather limited, I think its better to be realistic going in than be disappointed on the way out. Hiring in recent years has changed, a good example is federal govt. legal positions even in Oklahoma are now hiring UT, Duke, Vandy, and Michigan grads where in years past it was TU, OU and OCU grads for entire offices. That said at least OU in the Oklahoma legal community is held far above TU and OCU.

^
Listen to him. He plays for the Thunder

[gbpackerbacker]

If I was top 25% at OU and I networked my ass off with OU alumni in the DFW area you guys think that would work out?

I know top 25% is quite an assumption but lets just let that one slide for arguments sake.

You'll have to be at least top 25% and one hell of a networker to land biglaw, or probably midlaw, in Dallas. Serious question: when do you see yourself having time to network in Dallas while you're in central Oklahoma going through law school?

Dear Ms. Debbie Downer,

i have to agree here patrick. while your comments are extremely insightful, they do have a very negative tone. i don't know if you're having a difficult time in the summer employment market or trouble forming meaningful connections in the ok legal market, but you seem slightly disgruntled, generally speaking.
i'll be attending ou in the fall. i'm very excited about starting this journey and i hope this "debbie downer" attitude doesn't rub off on me.

It was just realistic, practical advice. Haha I didn't see at as being "negative" at all...

[mrwarre85]

It was just realistic, practical advice. Haha I didn't see at as being "negative" at all...

I was just bein silly. The funny thing is that it was both. Both realistic and practical, and negative.

[patrickd139]

(Sorry for taking so long to respond. Finals and all that.)

An important implicit assumption that apparently was not clear: I only want to caution people to think twice about OU if you want access to Texas biglaw. OU is a fine and reputable school for the state of Oklahoma and places as well (or better) as any T2 does in its home market. Another implicit assumption: there is no biglaw, in the TLS sense, in Oklahoma, only large law firms.

@mrwarre85: I don't disagree that OU might be a better value than Baylor, especially at those prices. However, neither is going to (statistically) give you a good shot at Dallas biglaw, no matter how good your networking skills are. Will you be able to land a job in Dallas from OU? Probably. But I've been saying that from square one. I was very careful in saying that you'll need at least 25% and some fantastic networking (read: pulling strings) for biglaw or midlaw in Dallas, a point I have no problem standing by. I also seriously doubt you'll be able to network your way to a job all in one summer. Out of sight, out of mind, you know?

@amg131s: My post had a negative tone to avoid influencing someone set on making biglaw in Dallas from coming to OU. Though I'm not Dallas biglaw secure, I do have a market rate SA position this year at a very reputable OK firm, so I'm not having too much trouble forming meaningful connections in the OK legal market (though it was an incredibly uphill battle, you're right). I am, however, disgruntled at the rainbows and unicorns b.s. that many CSO and Admissions offices put out to attract students.

For example: I heard "We routinely place clerks on the 10th Circuit" ("routinely" might be a generous description), and "OU students have jobs in all 50 states" as answers to the question "Will graduating from OU give me a decent shot at getting market pay in Dallas?" When pressed more specifically, I've heard "Dallas is practically the Southern District of Oklahoma." and "We send about a third of our kids to Texas each year." The reality is quite different from the non-answers, as I wrote in my prior post. Just trying to impress on people that there's not truth in admissions. Again, this is all for Dallas (or Houston or Austin) biglaw aspirations.

OU is not by any means the only law school to operate this way. Entire websites have been founded (see, e.g., http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/) on this problem, and this site has done a lot to at least put valuable information out there. But it's still a problem, and one that potential law students have a right to know, but rarely find out until it's way too late to make an informed decision.

Any bitterness on my part comes from not having such information available to me at the time I made my decision to enroll, despite my best efforts to get it. I am extremely fortunate with how my summer has shaped up. But what happened for me is, statistically, an anomaly and my fortune should not be taken to encourage others to try and duplicate my pseudo-success. There's no way I would have made the same decision knowing what I know now. If putting this information out comes across as bitter, but helps a student avoid picking a law school (any law school) for the wrong reason, so be it.

@byronmullens: I agree with your post entirely. I would also like to add that Oklahoma firms are now hiring a disproportionate number of students from out of state, at least for SA positions. Schools like ND, WUSTL, HLS, UT, Duke and Vandy are making regular appearances alongside OU grads at the major firms in numbers not historically seen before. The same goes for Art. III clerkships.

@flips:

@mrwarre85's last post: You're right. Practical reality is often very negative.

[amg131s]

@amg131s: My post had a negative tone to avoid influencing someone set on making biglaw in Dallas from coming to OU. Though I'm not Dallas biglaw secure, I do have a market rate SA position this year at a very reputable OK firm, so I'm not having too much trouble forming meaningful connections in the OK legal market (though it was an incredibly uphill battle, you're right). I am, however, disgruntled at the rainbows and unicorns b.s. that many CSO and Admissions offices put out to attract students.

For example: I heard "We routinely place clerks on the 10th Circuit" ("routinely" might be a generous description), and "OU students have jobs in all 50 states" as answers to the question "Will graduating from OU give me a decent shot at getting market pay in Dallas?" When pressed more specifically, I've heard "Dallas is practically the Southern District of Oklahoma." and "We send about a third of our kids to Texas each year." The reality is quite different from the non-answers, as I wrote in my prior post. Just trying to impress on people that there's not truth in admissions. Again, this is all for Dallas (or Houston or Austin) biglaw aspirations.

OU is not by any means the only law school to operate this way. Entire websites have been founded (see, e.g., http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/) on this problem, and this site has done a lot to at least put valuable information out there. But it's still a problem, and one that potential law students have a right to know, but rarely find out until it's way too late to make an informed decision.

Any bitterness on my part comes from not having such information available to me at the time I made my decision to enroll, despite my best efforts to get it. I am extremely fortunate with how my summer has shaped up. But what happened for me is, statistically, an anomaly and my fortune should not be taken to encourage others to try and duplicate my pseudo-success. There's no way I would have made the same decision knowing what I know now. If putting this information out comes across as bitter, but helps a student avoid picking a law school (any law school) for the wrong reason, so be it.

fair enough. i do tend to agree with most everything you say, but sometimes it does seem as though you have little positive to say about ou, maybe law schools in general i should say.
law school isn't all rainbows and unicorns, i guess it's all for the best if someone points it out.
take care.

[mrwarre85]

Withdrew and freed up some money. Hope someone on TLS gets it.