CU Boulder 2011

Share Your Experiences, Read About Other Experiences. Please keep posts organized by school and expected year of graduation.
ChuckC
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Postby ChuckC » Sat Feb 05, 2011 1:29 pm

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Last edited by ChuckC on Wed May 28, 2014 1:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

ptblazer
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Re: CU Boulder 2011

Postby ptblazer » Sat Feb 05, 2011 1:32 pm

whitman wrote:When are the admitted students days again?


March 4th and April 1st

ptblazer
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Re: CU Boulder 2011

Postby ptblazer » Sat Feb 05, 2011 1:33 pm

ChuckC wrote:165 3.62 please let me in! applied 1/30 :/
I wrote a why CU, straight up saying its my top choice


Good luck!

bananeez
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Re: CU Boulder 2011

Postby bananeez » Sat Feb 05, 2011 1:42 pm

chrisbru wrote:Love you all, congrats to all that got in... Let's still hang out even if we go to "rival" Colorado law schools.



Awwww... We love you too.

And I'll still "hang." PM me to stay in touch-- I'll probably be in Colorado around both times. And I won't even call you a douchie.

bananeez
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Re: CU Boulder 2011

Postby bananeez » Sat Feb 05, 2011 1:45 pm

ChuckC wrote:165 3.62 please let me in! applied 1/30 :/
I wrote a why CU, straight up saying its my top choice


You have my numbers, and I got in early January, so it's looking good... Good luck!

krad
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Re: CU Boulder 2011

Postby krad » Sat Feb 05, 2011 1:53 pm

OMGgg chrisbru I'm so sorry :( I was really rooting for you!!! Sounds like you're gonna ride the WL but probably not attend if it's sticker? I'm sorry dude.

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stlisforlovers
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Re: CU Boulder 2011

Postby stlisforlovers » Sat Feb 05, 2011 2:09 pm

bananeez wrote:
And I'll still "hang." PM me to stay in touch-- I'll probably be in Colorado around both times. And I won't even call you a douchie.

Wow so much love. Sorry, chrisbru!! There's still hope though!

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chrisbru
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Re: CU Boulder 2011

Postby chrisbru » Sat Feb 05, 2011 4:54 pm

jayman6 wrote:
Hey man. I just looked into visiting Boulder the morning of March 25th. Turns out they have spring break that weekend and the university is actually closed that day. I might just go walk around myself that morning, or go a day early. They are offering tours on the 24th but there are obviously no classes. I'm not sure yet what I'll do. It sucks.


Fuck dude, you serious? That sucks. I was hoping I could at least meet an adcomm and put a face with my waitlist.


ETA:
krad wrote:OMGgg chrisbru I'm so sorry :( I was really rooting for you!!! Sounds like you're gonna ride the WL but probably not attend if it's sticker? I'm sorry dude.



Yeah, DEFINITELY not at sticker. I can't justify $60k more than Denver and $110k more than St. Thomas. If I'm going anywhere at sticker, it will be Iowa in-state.

Plus, I have a life. I can't exactly wait around until July to decide where I'm going to school :-(

dreakol
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Re: CU Boulder 2011

Postby dreakol » Sat Feb 05, 2011 9:18 pm

WL'd via snail mail today 169 3.67

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fundamentallybroken
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Re: CU Boulder 2011

Postby fundamentallybroken » Sat Feb 05, 2011 9:29 pm

Here is the story of my wait for word from CU:

Nothing.

Then, on another day... nothing.

Today, nothing.

Gah!

(It's like a de facto waitlist.)

JakeL
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Re: CU Boulder 2011

Postby JakeL » Sat Feb 05, 2011 9:44 pm

dreakol wrote:WL'd via snail mail today 169 3.67


Wow. YP?

dreakol
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Re: CU Boulder 2011

Postby dreakol » Sat Feb 05, 2011 9:50 pm

^I dont think so. I've been WL'd everywhere so I am assuming something is wrong with my application. Though, I was pulled of the WL at a higher ranked school a week later after sending the LOCI, the only school I sent a LOCI to.

jayman6
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Re: CU Boulder 2011

Postby jayman6 » Sat Feb 05, 2011 11:19 pm

chrisbru wrote:
Yeah, DEFINITELY not at sticker. I can't justify $60k more than Denver and $110k more than St. Thomas. If I'm going anywhere at sticker, it will be Iowa in-state.

Plus, I have a life. I can't exactly wait around until July to decide where I'm going to school :-(


So I realize your reservations about going to CU at sticker, but they do report a median starting salary for law firms at $107k, where DU only reports $70k. I know that these numbers can be fudged, but what does anyone think about the possibility of CU being worth paying sticker and passing up a good scholly from Denver?

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Pufer
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Re: CU Boulder 2011

Postby Pufer » Sun Feb 06, 2011 2:30 am

jayman6 wrote:So I realize your reservations about going to CU at sticker, but they do report a median starting salary for law firms at $107k, where DU only reports $70k. I know that these numbers can be fudged, but what does anyone think about the possibility of CU being worth paying sticker and passing up a good scholly from Denver?


From CU, you can get access to just about any of the $70k firms where DU is placing, plus have a better chance at the higher-paying firms (i.e., the upper-echelon of the mid-law Denver firms), which are what boosts CU's median salary. That's deceptive, though, because a huge proportion of CU's class has been going into clerkships these last couple of years, and there really isn't that huge a number of firm jobs that people are getting right out of school.

There are probably a higher number of folks getting firm jobs out of DU, but that's because of the larger DU alumni presence in small Colorado firms and the fact that CU tends to disproportionately dominate the more prestigious clerkships, which forces more of the upper-parts of DU's class into calling upon such alumni contacts.

In other words, I'd say that both schools have a small number of individuals working at massive-paycheck jobs propping up their median figures. However, whereas CU doesn't pump enough folks into lower-paying firm jobs to drag their number down (because of clerkships), DU pumps a hell of a large number of folks into of lower-paying firm jobs, which drags their median firm salary a lot lower than CU's.


When I was making the scholly vs. full-price decision, I took the worst case scenario view. While I didn't even apply to DU, when weighing CU (with $$$) against Boston College, Iowa, etc., I figured that I'd have my scholly first year, then would be the 49th percentile GPA person the second year.

At CU, this would mean I had a free first year, then would lose my scholly. However, with the all-but-automatic in-state tuition for 2L and 3L years, would pay ~$47k total for tuition (around $56k under current tuition rates).

At DU (similar to what I was looking at with BC), as the 49th percentile person, you'd have your scholly first year, then would lose it and pay full price 2L and 3L year, costing you around $73k (plus whatever wasn't covered by your scholarship 1L year) at current rates for tuition.

I'll emphasize that this is not an insubstantial risk. Because of curve grading at law schools, everybody is bunched tightly around the median. The difference between being like the 80th ranked person at CU and being the 90th ranked person and losing your scholarship (to be clear, CU doesn't rank anyone outside of the top-third, but, because of the way the curve works, the middle person in the class has to have damn close to a median GPA) could be the difference between getting an A- as opposed to a B+ in a single class. DU is not any different in this, as far as I'm aware, except that you have like 300 more people to compete against in the same curve, nor are most other law schools.


I made my financial decision—and I think I did so the proper way—based on the idea that I would lose my scholarship after 1L year, just like 50% of every class does. Fortunately, the worst-case didn't come to fruition for me: I kept my scholarship, and am now in pretty solid shape (I even picked up another scholarship). That said—and this can be verified by rekopter and others here—a good friend of mine came to CU fully expecting to be in the top half of the class, and keep a nice scholarship. The actual result: a below-median performance 1L year, and not enough money or borrowing power to continue on with school minus the scholarship. Now my friend is living back at home with the parents—sans all pre-law school savings in the ol' bank account—paying off 1.5 years of living expenses and partial tuition without a JD. If this can happen at the relatively cheap CU, I really don't like the risk at a BC or a DU. Of course, this may just be me.

Now, assuming a ~$20k first year scholarship from DU compared to full price at CU all three years, DU still wins using my way of comparing costs of education. However, if you're getting less than $20k for 1L year at DU, I'd argue that you have much more of a decision to make. Nobody can be sure of how well they're going to do in law school, no matter where you're going.

-Pufer

ptblazer
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Re: CU Boulder 2011

Postby ptblazer » Sun Feb 06, 2011 11:52 am

Pufer-

Thanks, you bring up a very interesting analysis. I was wondering if you could comment on CU's tendencies for offering scholarships, both to 0L and after the first year.

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whitman
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Re: CU Boulder 2011

Postby whitman » Sun Feb 06, 2011 12:13 pm

Pufer wrote:
jayman6 wrote:So I realize your reservations about going to CU at sticker, but they do report a median starting salary for law firms at $107k, where DU only reports $70k. I know that these numbers can be fudged, but what does anyone think about the possibility of CU being worth paying sticker and passing up a good scholly from Denver?


From CU, you can get access to just about any of the $70k firms where DU is placing, plus have a better chance at the higher-paying firms (i.e., the upper-echelon of the mid-law Denver firms), which are what boosts CU's median salary. That's deceptive, though, because a huge proportion of CU's class has been going into clerkships these last couple of years, and there really isn't that huge a number of firm jobs that people are getting right out of school.

There are probably a higher number of folks getting firm jobs out of DU, but that's because of the larger DU alumni presence in small Colorado firms and the fact that CU tends to disproportionately dominate the more prestigious clerkships, which forces more of the upper-parts of DU's class into calling upon such alumni contacts.

In other words, I'd say that both schools have a small number of individuals working at massive-paycheck jobs propping up their median figures. However, whereas CU doesn't pump enough folks into lower-paying firm jobs to drag their number down (because of clerkships), DU pumps a hell of a large number of folks into of lower-paying firm jobs, which drags their median firm salary a lot lower than CU's.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but that isn't how median works. That would affect the mean, but not the median. If that median is accurate, it means the middle income person makes exactly $107,000, but it doesn't say anything at all about the incomes of students making more and less than that. They might be all making $107,000, or some might be making 0 and some $40,000, some $107,000, and some $140,000.

ptblazer
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Re: CU Boulder 2011

Postby ptblazer » Sun Feb 06, 2011 12:42 pm

whitman wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but that isn't how median works. That would affect the mean, but not the median. If that median is accurate, it means the middle income person makes exactly $107,000, but it doesn't say anything at all about the incomes of students making more and less than that. They might be all making $107,000, or some might be making 0 and some $40,000, some $107,000, and some $140,000.


You're right about the median vs. mean. But I think the issue he was bringing up is that at CU a large portion of students do clerkships, which are not factored into this number (if I'm understanding it correctly). At DU a large portion get into small law firms, which would decrease the median.

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Pufer
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Re: CU Boulder 2011

Postby Pufer » Sun Feb 06, 2011 4:50 pm

ptblazer wrote:Pufer-

Thanks, you bring up a very interesting analysis. I was wondering if you could comment on CU's tendencies for offering scholarships, both to 0L and after the first year.


For 0Ls, admissions really does try to give as many people as much as they can (hence the late scholly notifications - they want the maximum amount of donations/interest in this year's scholarship account, plus all those who don't think highly enough of CU to hang in there to drop out of the running, so that they can give every possible cent out to those who deserve/want/will actually use it). Once you're in, every year there's a list of one hell of a lot of individually endowed scholarships (I'd put it in the 50-70 range, most of which give money to multiple students each year) that you apply for en masse towards the end of every year.

That said, admissions is somewhat limited by alumni donation practices out here. Up until the early 2000s, in-state CU Law tuition was among the most heavily subsidized in the nation, with tuition costing more like $7k/yr than the current $29K (think University of New Mexico-style in-state price tags). Back then, there wasn't all that much giving to the endowment funds because everyone knew that school was already so cheap.

Since then, however, state subsidies have fallen to something like 2% of CU Law's budget (which actually gives the school a fair bit of leverage - the threat that we leave the CU system instead of complying with X crazy state-imposed policy is not idle), and CU Law decided to actually try and compete in the rankings game, which is an oppressively expensive proposition (given that law school expenditures are one of the heaviest-weighted determinants of ranking). Many alums and firms are still under the impression that we're dealing with $10k tuition and are not willing to donate quite as willingly as, say, DU's alums are (DU always being about as expensive as it is now). This has resulted in a moderately underfunded endowment compared to our peer schools, along with a bunch of old endowed scholarships that are geared more towards giving ten people a couple grand each rather than giving four people the brand of substantial tuition cut that was originally intended by the folks doing the endowing. While admissions tries its best to make it seem like none of this is going on, and alumni are beginning to get the message, scholarships are not as big here as they are at DU, or many other schools. Of course, in state tuition after the first year is like an instant $14k scholarship right there, so the impact of this is somewhat lessened.

ptblazer wrote:
whitman wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but that isn't how median works. That would affect the mean, but not the median. If that median is accurate, it means the middle income person makes exactly $107,000, but it doesn't say anything at all about the incomes of students making more and less than that. They might be all making $107,000, or some might be making 0 and some $40,000, some $107,000, and some $140,000.


You're right about the median vs. mean. But I think the issue he was bringing up is that at CU a large portion of students do clerkships, which are not factored into this number (if I'm understanding it correctly). At DU a large portion get into small law firms, which would decrease the median.


Indeed; that is exactly what I was trying to convey. If you don't get a high-paying, OCI-type job at CU, you will traditionally give up, wait until the last minute, then get a judicial clerkship getting paid $50k/yr (CU students' reputation is that we're the most passive, lazy bunch of people on earth when it comes to getting jobs, which is totally true).

At DU, if you miss out on the OCI jobs, there's less of a clear conduit into anything other than trial court clerkships than there is at CU, so you start networking, and you get a job at a small firm full of DU alums in Wheat Ridge getting paid $50k/yr.

There are a lot of lower-paying government jobs and clerkships that are easier to get (i.e., you can submit your application packet at 11 PM from your couch) than the lower-paying firm jobs (where you'd have to actually make some sort of real effort to network your way into). Since we at CU generally ignore the existence of the latter category, folks either get a high-paying firm job, or they work somewhere other than a firm. At DU, everybody gets a firm job.

Our $50k earners drag down our government and clerkship medians (of course, this isn't noticeable because that's what everyone gets paid in such job categories), whereas DU's $50k earners drag down their firm median, simply because they are counted in that category as opposed to some other category.

When looking at our employment numbers, it's a good idea to keep all of this in mind. Simply because the economy goes to hell, we don't work any harder to get jobs, and our employment numbers suffer when jobs don't fall into our laps like they used to. If you actually want to network and stuff, the sheer novelty of a CU person actively lobbying for a job would probably get you a lot of second looks.

-Pufer

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queenlizzie13
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Re: CU Boulder 2011

Postby queenlizzie13 » Sun Feb 06, 2011 5:22 pm

Pufer, do you know if CU tends to be more generous with $ for in-state students or out of state students?

I just need a little $$ from CU to go...OSU gave me 7.5k a year...would I be able to negotiate a similar offer from CU?

ptblazer
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Re: CU Boulder 2011

Postby ptblazer » Sun Feb 06, 2011 6:39 pm

good stuff, thanks.

Hopefully we all get enough money to make the decision to go to CU easier (and soon).

Oh and Go Packers!

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whitman
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Re: CU Boulder 2011

Postby whitman » Sun Feb 06, 2011 8:11 pm

Pufer wrote:
ptblazer wrote:Pufer-

Thanks, you bring up a very interesting analysis. I was wondering if you could comment on CU's tendencies for offering scholarships, both to 0L and after the first year.


For 0Ls, admissions really does try to give as many people as much as they can (hence the late scholly notifications - they want the maximum amount of donations/interest in this year's scholarship account, plus all those who don't think highly enough of CU to hang in there to drop out of the running, so that they can give every possible cent out to those who deserve/want/will actually use it). Once you're in, every year there's a list of one hell of a lot of individually endowed scholarships (I'd put it in the 50-70 range, most of which give money to multiple students each year) that you apply for en masse towards the end of every year.

That said, admissions is somewhat limited by alumni donation practices out here. Up until the early 2000s, in-state CU Law tuition was among the most heavily subsidized in the nation, with tuition costing more like $7k/yr than the current $29K (think University of New Mexico-style in-state price tags). Back then, there wasn't all that much giving to the endowment funds because everyone knew that school was already so cheap.

Since then, however, state subsidies have fallen to something like 2% of CU Law's budget (which actually gives the school a fair bit of leverage - the threat that we leave the CU system instead of complying with X crazy state-imposed policy is not idle), and CU Law decided to actually try and compete in the rankings game, which is an oppressively expensive proposition (given that law school expenditures are one of the heaviest-weighted determinants of ranking). Many alums and firms are still under the impression that we're dealing with $10k tuition and are not willing to donate quite as willingly as, say, DU's alums are (DU always being about as expensive as it is now). This has resulted in a moderately underfunded endowment compared to our peer schools, along with a bunch of old endowed scholarships that are geared more towards giving ten people a couple grand each rather than giving four people the brand of substantial tuition cut that was originally intended by the folks doing the endowing. While admissions tries its best to make it seem like none of this is going on, and alumni are beginning to get the message, scholarships are not as big here as they are at DU, or many other schools. Of course, in state tuition after the first year is like an instant $14k scholarship right there, so the impact of this is somewhat lessened.

ptblazer wrote:
whitman wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but that isn't how median works. That would affect the mean, but not the median. If that median is accurate, it means the middle income person makes exactly $107,000, but it doesn't say anything at all about the incomes of students making more and less than that. They might be all making $107,000, or some might be making 0 and some $40,000, some $107,000, and some $140,000.


You're right about the median vs. mean. But I think the issue he was bringing up is that at CU a large portion of students do clerkships, which are not factored into this number (if I'm understanding it correctly). At DU a large portion get into small law firms, which would decrease the median.


Indeed; that is exactly what I was trying to convey. If you don't get a high-paying, OCI-type job at CU, you will traditionally give up, wait until the last minute, then get a judicial clerkship getting paid $50k/yr (CU students' reputation is that we're the most passive, lazy bunch of people on earth when it comes to getting jobs, which is totally true).

At DU, if you miss out on the OCI jobs, there's less of a clear conduit into anything other than trial court clerkships than there is at CU, so you start networking, and you get a job at a small firm full of DU alums in Wheat Ridge getting paid $50k/yr.

There are a lot of lower-paying government jobs and clerkships that are easier to get (i.e., you can submit your application packet at 11 PM from your couch) than the lower-paying firm jobs (where you'd have to actually make some sort of real effort to network your way into). Since we at CU generally ignore the existence of the latter category, folks either get a high-paying firm job, or they work somewhere other than a firm. At DU, everybody gets a firm job.

Our $50k earners drag down our government and clerkship medians (of course, this isn't noticeable because that's what everyone gets paid in such job categories), whereas DU's $50k earners drag down their firm median, simply because they are counted in that category as opposed to some other category.

When looking at our employment numbers, it's a good idea to keep all of this in mind. Simply because the economy goes to hell, we don't work any harder to get jobs, and our employment numbers suffer when jobs don't fall into our laps like they used to. If you actually want to network and stuff, the sheer novelty of a CU person actively lobbying for a job would probably get you a lot of second looks.

-Pufer


Pufer or anyone else,

I know Colorado Law touts its environmental law program. I am interested in the field, but I understand that environmental law often means litigation on behalf of a corporation against, for examle, the EPA. Do you know anything about Colorado's environmental law program and what kind of careers graduates often enter after getting their JD? Is there much environmental law work in Denver?

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Pufer
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Re: CU Boulder 2011

Postby Pufer » Mon Feb 07, 2011 1:07 am

queenlizzie13 wrote:Pufer, do you know if CU tends to be more generous with $ for in-state students or out of state students?

I just need a little $$ from CU to go...OSU gave me 7.5k a year...would I be able to negotiate a similar offer from CU?


No idea. Based on people I know from the cycle three years ago, I'd say that more $$$ is probably going to out-of-staters to offset out-of-state tuition 1L year, but I really don't know much about how it's going nowadays (back then, you got scholarship info with your acceptance letter, and they weren't quite so concerned with giving out every dollar available to them - it's a whole new world now).

whitman wrote:I know Colorado Law touts its environmental law program. I am interested in the field, but I understand that environmental law often means litigation on behalf of a corporation against, for examle, the EPA. Do you know anything about Colorado's environmental law program and what kind of careers graduates often enter after getting their JD? Is there much environmental law work in Denver?


I answered a very similar question back somewhere in the first few pages of this topic (from oldhippie, if I remember correctly). I'll just refer back to what I said there. :)

-Pufer

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oldhippie
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Re: CU Boulder 2011

Postby oldhippie » Mon Feb 07, 2011 10:02 am

you did indeed :) waaay back on page 2 he talked about enviro law...
thanks for all the help along the way!

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LeDique
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Re: CU Boulder 2011

Postby LeDique » Mon Feb 07, 2011 10:19 am

So, I had finally decided on skiing at Copper after ASD in March. Turns out they're hosting the Colorado Special Olympics then. Anyone have know how much an impact this has on Copper? I'm thinking I'm probably better going somewhere else because of it.

krad
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Re: CU Boulder 2011

Postby krad » Mon Feb 07, 2011 10:56 am

Pufer- your contributions to TT are REALLY appreciated!

I love how TT always bounces from serious LS stuff to questions about skiing :mrgreen: LeDique I've actually never ridden Copper but I'd have to guess that having any kind of event like that will crowd the area and limit ski/ride able terrain... I'll see if I can't get an answer out of my friends that do ski/ride Copper!

E: Although it looks like they're only up there on that Sunday... --LinkRemoved--




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