Emory 2011

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rman1201
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Re: Emory 2011

Postby rman1201 » Tue Mar 15, 2011 3:05 pm

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Last edited by rman1201 on Fri Mar 18, 2011 4:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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law4vus
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Re: Emory 2011

Postby law4vus » Tue Mar 15, 2011 3:16 pm

Just got the Emory email about the rankings.

Pretty much restating what Dean Ethan said already in this thread, but good to have the info nonetheless.

EU223
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Re: Emory 2011

Postby EU223 » Tue Mar 15, 2011 3:16 pm

Full disclosure-Emory Law Grad. The reason for the ranking drop seems to reflect one key stat in the employment data that I have not seen mentioned. US News is reporting over 27% of Emory students are unemployed and "not seeking work at graduation", resulting in the employed at graduation rate in the 60's. US News/ law schools have come under tremendous fire recently about the accuracy of their employment data. As such, the magazine has arbitrarily decided to change the way the calculate employment data. People who are unemployed at graduation but "not seeking work" seem to now be counted as essentially unemployed. To clarify, I am fairly certain "not seeking work" is the category that someone is given if they report that they are studying for the bar full time. This change seems to have crushed Emory, and I think rather unfairly. I agree that employment data for all schools is horribly unrealistic, but I don't think the change better reflects the reality. I assure you all these schools outside the T14 with 95% plus employment at grad aren't reflecting what you think. US news counts ANY job as employed. You can be working at starbucks and count towards the data. I am fairly confident Emory doesn't play those type of games, rather their proud students simply represent themselves as studying for the bar full time, which is true. Since Emory doesn't have a bunch of students claiming to be employed in non legal fields making minimum wage, while other schools do, they were crushed in the rankings.

US news rankings, as much as I hate to admit it, do impact the quality of students a school can attract. Just look at some of the people on these forums dismissing schools because of a drop in ranking. People seem to be really focusing on Emory's employed at grad rate for justification. The reality is, this rate is probably one of the most accurate ones in the entire rankings. Lawyers and grads from all schools are suffering, there is no way 95 percent of students at all these schools are getting legal jobs. But, because their data reflects that they do, Emory has been left behind.

When deciding if Emory is right for you, look at the data that really matters. What recruiters think of Emory, how they place in the Big firms, and who will be interviewing you. Almost every interview I ever went on while in ATL was with an Emory grad. I am not saying employment data doesn't matter, but I don't think it's necessarily accurate to compare Emory's US News data with other similarly ranked schools because you truly have no idea how accurate the data is.
Last edited by EU223 on Tue Mar 15, 2011 3:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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tttlllsss
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Re: Emory 2011

Postby tttlllsss » Tue Mar 15, 2011 3:23 pm

EU223 wrote:Full disclosure-Emory Law Grad. The reason for the ranking drop seems to reflect one key stat in the employment data that I have not seen mentioned. US News is reporting over 27% of Emory students are unemployed and "not seeking work at graduation", resulting in the employed at graduation rate in the 60's. US News/ law schools have come under tremendous fire recently about the accuracy of their employment data. As such, the magazine has arbitrarily decided to change the way the calculate employment data. People who are unemployed at graduation but "not seeking work" seem to now be counted as essentially unemployed. To clarify, I am fairly certain "not seeking work" is the category that someone is given if they report that they are studying for the bar full time and unemployed. This change seems to have crushed Emory, and I think rather unfairly. I agree that employment data for all schools is horribly unrealistic, but I don't think the change better reflects the reality. I assure you all these schools outside the T14 with 95% plus employment at grad aren't reflecting what you think. US news counts ANY job as employed. You can be working at starbucks and count towards the data. I am fairly confident Emory doesn't play those type of games, rather their proud students simply represent themselves as studying for the bar full time, which is true. Since Emory doesn't have a bunch of students claiming to be employed in non legal fields making minimum wage, while other schools do, they were crushed in the rankings.

US news rankings, as much as I hate to admit it, do impact the quality of students a school can attract. Just look at some of the people on these forums dismissing schools because of a drop in ranking. People seem to be really focusing on Emory's employed at grad rate for justification. The reality is, this rate is probably one of the most accurate ones in the entire rankings. Lawyers and grads from all schools are suffering, there is no way 95 percent of students at all these schools are getting legal jobs. But, because their data reflects that they do, Emory has been left behind.

When deciding if Emory is right for you, look at the data that really matters. What recruiters think of Emory, how they place in the Big firms, and who will be interviewing you. Almost every interview I ever went on while in ATL was with an Emory grad. I am not saying employment data doesn't matter, but I don't think it's necessarily accurate to compare Emory's US News data with other similarly ranked schools because you truly have no idea how accurate the data is.


Nevertheless, it is Emory's responsibility to keep its ranking high in order to attract top students. If this means gaming the system like the other schools do, so be it. Being #30 will have a real, tangible effect on the sorts of students who choose to attend a school, whether you like it or not

EU223
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Re: Emory 2011

Postby EU223 » Tue Mar 15, 2011 3:25 pm

They wouldn't have had a chance to game them this year, I think US news changed the methodology without telling them. If they had known, they probably would have made sure all those people who listed themselves as studying for the bar didn't also have part time work to count, which many probably did.

username99
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Re: Emory 2011

Postby username99 » Tue Mar 15, 2011 3:31 pm

tttlllsss wrote:
EU223 wrote:Full disclosure-Emory Law Grad. The reason for the ranking drop seems to reflect one key stat in the employment data that I have not seen mentioned. US News is reporting over 27% of Emory students are unemployed and "not seeking work at graduation", resulting in the employed at graduation rate in the 60's. US News/ law schools have come under tremendous fire recently about the accuracy of their employment data. As such, the magazine has arbitrarily decided to change the way the calculate employment data. People who are unemployed at graduation but "not seeking work" seem to now be counted as essentially unemployed. To clarify, I am fairly certain "not seeking work" is the category that someone is given if they report that they are studying for the bar full time and unemployed. This change seems to have crushed Emory, and I think rather unfairly. I agree that employment data for all schools is horribly unrealistic, but I don't think the change better reflects the reality. I assure you all these schools outside the T14 with 95% plus employment at grad aren't reflecting what you think. US news counts ANY job as employed. You can be working at starbucks and count towards the data. I am fairly confident Emory doesn't play those type of games, rather their proud students simply represent themselves as studying for the bar full time, which is true. Since Emory doesn't have a bunch of students claiming to be employed in non legal fields making minimum wage, while other schools do, they were crushed in the rankings.

US news rankings, as much as I hate to admit it, do impact the quality of students a school can attract. Just look at some of the people on these forums dismissing schools because of a drop in ranking. People seem to be really focusing on Emory's employed at grad rate for justification. The reality is, this rate is probably one of the most accurate ones in the entire rankings. Lawyers and grads from all schools are suffering, there is no way 95 percent of students at all these schools are getting legal jobs. But, because their data reflects that they do, Emory has been left behind.

When deciding if Emory is right for you, look at the data that really matters. What recruiters think of Emory, how they place in the Big firms, and who will be interviewing you. Almost every interview I ever went on while in ATL was with an Emory grad. I am not saying employment data doesn't matter, but I don't think it's necessarily accurate to compare Emory's US News data with other similarly ranked schools because you truly have no idea how accurate the data is.


Nevertheless, it is Emory's responsibility to keep its ranking high in order to attract top students. If this means gaming the system like the other schools do, so be it. Being #30 will have a real, tangible effect on the sorts of students who choose to attend a school, whether you like it or not


It's circular too, right? The ranking drop may not reflect a drop in employment statistics, but will surely cause one. Employers go by rankings, plain and simple.

EU223
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Re: Emory 2011

Postby EU223 » Tue Mar 15, 2011 3:35 pm

I'm pretty sure all those partners at K&S, Jones Day, ect. in the ATL market who went to Emory and do the hiring will not stop employing Emory grads when the market picks up because they are now ranked 30. If you want to work in ATL, Emory @30 in the rankings will not be your biggest obstacle, I assure you. Also, do not over look that Emory is ranked 18th among recruiters. I would argue that ranking is more important than the 30 for your employment prospects given those are the people who will be interviewing you.

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tttlllsss
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Re: Emory 2011

Postby tttlllsss » Tue Mar 15, 2011 3:41 pm

EU223 wrote:I'm pretty sure all those partners at K&S, Jones Day, ect. in the ATL market who went to Emory and do the hiring will not stop employing Emory grads when the market picks up because they are now ranked 30. If you want to work in ATL, Emory @30 in the rankings will not be your biggest obstacle, I assure you. Also, do not over look that Emory is ranked 18th among recruiters. I would argue that ranking is more important than the 30 for your employment prospects given those are the people who will be interviewing you.


Drop to #30 --> Certain students choose peer schools instead --> Class stats are lower --> Emory suffers additionally

fetalposition
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Re: Emory 2011

Postby fetalposition » Tue Mar 15, 2011 3:48 pm

This probably isn't completely relevant because it happened for different reasons, but doesn't anyone remember when GW dropped 8 spots from 20 to 28 like two years ago? I'm pretty sure the year after they went back up to #20.

This might be a down year for Emory, but once they figure out how the new methodology works (i.e. how to game the rankings) I'd be willing to bet they'll be back up circa 22-25.

It would be stupid to say that this drop wont have consequences. They are definitely going to have trouble attracting students this year, and that will indeed have a circular and adverse effect on the school. But anyone who thinks Emory will be in the high 20s to low 30s forever is being a bit too pessimistic.

username99
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Re: Emory 2011

Postby username99 » Tue Mar 15, 2011 3:51 pm

How come they are the only school affected by this though? If every single other school figured it out, why is Emory the only one to suffer?

EU223
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Re: Emory 2011

Postby EU223 » Tue Mar 15, 2011 3:57 pm

I didn't look at every single school, but of the ones I saw, none of them reported anywhere near the number of students "not seeking work" (ie studying for the bar). The answer as to why is any ones guess..are their peers really doing that much better then Emory in one of the worst legel environments of our lifetime or were they reporting their data differently. As I said before, I am pretty confident Emory doesn't encourage its students to report minimum wage jobs in their employment data. Instead, they truthfully say they are studying for the bar. Other schools may be including a lot more non legal jobs in their data. Up until this year, people not looking for work didn't count in the data, suddenly they do. Emory could not have anticipated this change. If US news really wanted to make a fair and accurate change, they would only count jobs that require or prefer a JD. If they did this, I am all but certain Emory's data would be far more competitive.
Last edited by EU223 on Tue Mar 15, 2011 4:01 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Grizz
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Re: Emory 2011

Postby Grizz » Tue Mar 15, 2011 3:58 pm

username99 wrote:Employers go by rankings, plain and simple.

lol

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bergg007
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Re: Emory 2011

Postby bergg007 » Tue Mar 15, 2011 4:05 pm

This drop in rankings changes nothing. Emory is the same school it was yesterday. They still place well on the NLJ 250 and for clerkships. I'd like to see their explanation but I'm still hoping to get accepted and attend. so, yeah if this drop in rankings changes everything for you, you probably were interested in certain schools for the wrong reasons anyway

crit_racer
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Re: Emory 2011

Postby crit_racer » Tue Mar 15, 2011 4:06 pm

Did anyone get the email re: drop in rankings?

sch0123
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Re: Emory 2011

Postby sch0123 » Tue Mar 15, 2011 4:15 pm

crit_racer wrote:Did anyone get the email re: drop in rankings?



I haven't. law4vus 8 posts up or so is the only one to have mentioned receiving it...

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tttlllsss
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Re: Emory 2011

Postby tttlllsss » Tue Mar 15, 2011 4:17 pm

sch0123 wrote:
crit_racer wrote:Did anyone get the email re: drop in rankings?



I haven't. law4vus 8 posts up or so is the only one to have mentioned receiving it...


I got it

krad
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Re: Emory 2011

Postby krad » Tue Mar 15, 2011 4:19 pm

I got the email...

flexityflex86
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Re: Emory 2011

Postby flexityflex86 » Tue Mar 15, 2011 4:21 pm

I got it, but it wasn't re: drop. It just addressed it. Do you think Emory will still non-negotiate scholarships? I just always thought of them as far and away superior to IU: B, which makes it hard to justify spending 60k more for law school.

beachviolet11
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Re: Emory 2011

Postby beachviolet11 » Tue Mar 15, 2011 4:22 pm

i havent received the email either...odd that some are getting it and others arent

fetalposition
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Re: Emory 2011

Postby fetalposition » Tue Mar 15, 2011 4:23 pm

flexityflex86 wrote:I got it, but it wasn't re: drop. It just addressed it. Do you think Emory will still non-negotiate scholarships? I just always thought of them as far and away superior to IU: B, which makes it hard to justify spending 60k more for law school.


+1

maybe they feel like shelling out some more $$$ to make everyone feel better?

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FuManChusco
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Re: Emory 2011

Postby FuManChusco » Tue Mar 15, 2011 4:25 pm

rad law wrote:
username99 wrote:Employers go by rankings, plain and simple.

lol


megalulz. this thread is amazing. I didn't even apply to Emory, but I'm posting just to tag it.

krad
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Re: Emory 2011

Postby krad » Tue Mar 15, 2011 4:26 pm

If they start shelling out more $ I'd seriously consider it! At this point I'm ready to withdraw based on my other offers and Emory's higher cost of attendance :(

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theavrock
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Re: Emory 2011

Postby theavrock » Tue Mar 15, 2011 4:37 pm

krad wrote:If they start shelling out more $ I'd seriously consider it! At this point I'm ready to withdraw based on my other offers and Emory's higher cost of attendance :(


In the same position myself.

I sent a scholarship negotiation letter and although the response was polite and detailed the end game was that they would not negotiate merit based aid.

I told them to please let me know if anything change, but right now I just can't justify an additional 45K in tuition alone.

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tttlllsss
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Re: Emory 2011

Postby tttlllsss » Tue Mar 15, 2011 4:39 pm

theavrock wrote:
krad wrote:If they start shelling out more $ I'd seriously consider it! At this point I'm ready to withdraw based on my other offers and Emory's higher cost of attendance :(


In the same position myself.

I sent a scholarship negotiation letter and although the response was polite and detailed the end game was that they would not negotiate merit based aid.

I told them to please let me know if anything change, but right now I just can't justify an additional 45K in tuition alone.


When did u send?

FGCUguy123
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Re: Emory 2011

Postby FGCUguy123 » Tue Mar 15, 2011 4:47 pm

I think it's safe to assume that not every grad is employed after graduation or after taking the bar. Let's face it, this market stinks. Ok fine, I'll even grant you that some of the statistics are warped due to the USNWR not taking bar-studies as being employed (very reasonable). However, this conjecture and the email sent to us would be much more convincing if it was accompanied by stats provided by Emory that elucidate how many students are unemployed yet waiting to sit for the bar. That's just my opinion of course.




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