Michigan 2011

Share Your Experiences, Read About Other Experiences. Please keep posts organized by school and expected year of graduation.
paulinaporizkova
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Re: Michigan 2011

Postby paulinaporizkova » Sun Jan 23, 2011 4:56 pm

mr_toad wrote:So is any other contract, when it comes down to it. You're getting into law: respect those little, "legally binding" pieces of paper. I'm against ED personally for my own reasons (i.e., I value flexibility and the ability to change my mind easily), but getting into a contract is still getting into a contract. Possible to get out of? Sure. Easy? Probably not, and probably shouldn't be without major extenuating circumstances. Contracts are one of the bases for the rule of law, right?


Yes, this is true. But like FMaze said sometime earlier, they won't let her out of the ED at UM, yet they have SO many other people that want to go there that have similar/better numbers. Does anyone else think this has to do with schools being ranked based on yield? (% attending/%accepted)

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mr_toad
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Re: Michigan 2011

Postby mr_toad » Sun Jan 23, 2011 4:58 pm

Just took a look at the UVA early decision agreement... I HAVE READ THE ABOVE INSTRUCTIONS AND UNDERSTAND the policies and practices that apply to Early Decision admission at the University of Virginia School of Law. The University of Virginia is my first choice, and I wish to be considered as an Early Decision candidate. If admitted under Early Decision provisions, I will enroll at the University of Virginia School of Law. I further agree to withdraw all applications for admission to other law schools, and to initiate no new applications to other law schools if admitted under this program.

Nowhere does it say that this is only valid for this application cycle. But it can't last forever, can it? Oh wait. It's a contract. So.. maybe? As an OL, not qualified to answer this.

paulinaporizkova
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Re: Michigan 2011

Postby paulinaporizkova » Sun Jan 23, 2011 4:59 pm

Yeh, none of us are.

r6_philly
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Re: Michigan 2011

Postby r6_philly » Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:01 pm

mr_toad wrote:Just took a look at the UVA early decision agreement... I HAVE READ THE ABOVE INSTRUCTIONS AND UNDERSTAND the policies and practices that apply to Early Decision admission at the University of Virginia School of Law. The University of Virginia is my first choice, and I wish to be considered as an Early Decision candidate. If admitted under Early Decision provisions, I will enroll at the University of Virginia School of Law. I further agree to withdraw all applications for admission to other law schools, and to initiate no new applications to other law schools if admitted under this program.

Nowhere does it say that this is only valid for this application cycle. But it can't last forever, can it? Oh wait. It's a contract. So.. maybe? As an OL, not qualified to answer this.


I think you argue it is cycle dependent. Not a lawyer yet though. We do contracts at work that is assumed/implied to be annual if not otherwise specified.

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mr_toad
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Re: Michigan 2011

Postby mr_toad » Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:06 pm

From Michigan's app: If I receive an offer from the University of Michigan Law School under this plan, I agree to commit to attend the School beginning May 31, 2011, as well as to withdraw all applications pending at other law schools and not to initiate any new applications.

It's a good question re: Philly's experience with implied/assumed "annual" nature of the contract. It would make sense in this case, especially as UM claims to have student interests' at heart. That said, it'd be nice if they'd include that language explicitly in the contract, i.e., Student agrees to attend the school.... applications. If applicant wishes to withdraw from UM, applicant agrees to not attend any school until Summer/Fall Semester 2012, or something like that.

paulinaporizkova
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Re: Michigan 2011

Postby paulinaporizkova » Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:09 pm

mr_toad wrote:From Michigan's app: If I receive an offer from the University of Michigan Law School under this plan, I agree to commit to attend the School beginning May 31, 2011, as well as to withdraw all applications pending at other law schools and not to initiate any new applications.

It's a good question re: Philly's experience with implied/assumed "annual" nature of the contract. It would make sense in this case, especially as UM claims to have student interests' at heart. That said, it'd be nice if they'd include that language explicitly in the contract, i.e., Student agrees to attend the school.... applications. If applicant wishes to withdraw from UM, applicant agrees to not attend any school until Summer/Fall Semester 2012, or something like that.


This seems to be implicit with the date "May 31, 2011"

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mr_toad
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Re: Michigan 2011

Postby mr_toad » Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:14 pm

New suggestion: OP should call UM and ask them directly [edit: OP need not identify him/herself]. Implicitness will not win arguments unless stipulated or agreed to somehow. But that's why it surprises me that it is not EXplicitly stated on the contract, otherwise there's so much room for interpretation. But I agree that fundamentally a student should not be bound with some symbolic signature in blood made by a misunderstanding. And yet, our system is full of those things, like student loans you can't get rid of even though you "didn't really know what you were getting into." So I'm not arguing anything, really, except be careful and in this case, OP should find out from the horse's mouth what s/he really signed up for and how "binding" binding ED really is.

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AreJay711
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Re: Michigan 2011

Postby AreJay711 » Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:20 pm

You could also just not pay the deposit and just have Michigan give your spot away.

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Bildungsroman
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Re: Michigan 2011

Postby Bildungsroman » Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:26 pm

AreJay711 wrote:You could also just not pay the deposit and just have Michigan give your spot away.


What's the difference? Either way you're explicitly violating the terms of your ED agreement. Withdrawing is functionally the same as not paying your deposit by the deadline.

socraticmethodman
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Re: Michigan 2011

Postby socraticmethodman » Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:27 pm

Has anyone that received "the email" got a decision yet?

paulinaporizkova
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Re: Michigan 2011

Postby paulinaporizkova » Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:30 pm

Bildungsroman wrote:
AreJay711 wrote:You could also just not pay the deposit and just have Michigan give your spot away.


What's the difference? Either way you're explicitly violating the terms of your ED agreement. Withdrawing is functionally the same as not paying your deposit by the deadline.


BR, what do you think about the "annual" nature of the contract argument?

Saltqjibo
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Re: Michigan 2011

Postby Saltqjibo » Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:34 pm

. oops wrong thread

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AreJay711
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Re: Michigan 2011

Postby AreJay711 » Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:37 pm

Bildungsroman wrote:
AreJay711 wrote:You could also just not pay the deposit and just have Michigan give your spot away.


What's the difference? Either way you're explicitly violating the terms of your ED agreement. Withdrawing is functionally the same as not paying your deposit by the deadline.

It just seems more defensible than saying I never intended to go. I mean the deposit is only $300 so it isn't that great but it is different than I just wanted to go somewhere else. Reading the excerpt maybe that isn't as good as it seems. From what I've always read ED just means you won't apply anywhere else and only counts for one year but maybe not.

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mr_toad
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Re: Michigan 2011

Postby mr_toad » Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:39 pm

For an entertaining discussion on breaking (undergrad) ED contracts... you won't learn anything "real", but you'll learn something, probably.
I've only made it through the first 8 pages... but there's a [supposed, but I believe it due to the posts] lawyer who keeps posting after doing research on the matter, which might make it interesting to some here.

http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/col ... ision.html

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AreJay711
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Re: Michigan 2011

Postby AreJay711 » Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:43 pm

mr_toad wrote:For an entertaining discussion on breaking (undergrad) ED contracts... you won't learn anything "real", but you'll learn something, probably.
I've only made it through the first 8 pages... but there's a [supposed, but I believe it due to the posts] lawyer who keeps posting after doing research on the matter, which might make it interesting to some here.

http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/col ... ision.html


A coworker's son applied ED to a undergrad and she asked her lawyer how binding it was and he said that it wasn't really at all. I doubt that is as true with a highly colluding group of lawyers though.

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mr_toad
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Re: Michigan 2011

Postby mr_toad » Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:46 pm

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/daninreallife

For an example of how this worked in practice.

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AreJay711
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Re: Michigan 2011

Postby AreJay711 » Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:48 pm

mr_toad wrote:http://lawschoolnumbers.com/daninreallife

For an example of how this worked in practice.

Right, but that is in the same cycle. Scary though.

paulinaporizkova
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Re: Michigan 2011

Postby paulinaporizkova » Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:51 pm

mr_toad wrote:http://lawschoolnumbers.com/daninreallife

For an example of how this worked in practice.


Baha, I love the last two posts, after this guy's rant. People are so much meaner over the internet.

paulinaporizkova
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Re: Michigan 2011

Postby paulinaporizkova » Sun Jan 23, 2011 6:00 pm

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=142375

different school, same rules?

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mr_toad
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Re: Michigan 2011

Postby mr_toad » Sun Jan 23, 2011 6:45 pm

In that link there's a lot of people saying that it's only binding for the year. I'd prefer to see that in writing. Not saying it's not true, it's just not the kind of thing you want to base your decisions off of.

cornhusker
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Re: Michigan 2011

Postby cornhusker » Sun Jan 23, 2011 6:46 pm

A contract, an agreement, verbal or written, exists between 2 or more parties, and is binding, right? If circumstances change, BOTH parties can agree to dissolve the contract at any time. A good amount of confusion exists in the current "cycle" as many schools have wildly varying degrees of obligation written into ED/EA/PT agreements. Assuming the individual involved in this cycle did NOT submit any "new" applications. If a good faith effort can be shown to have been made re: rescinding all outstanding apps. While not a frivolous matter, surely this is not the 1st time UM or any other school has dealt with this situation. It seems there is plenty of "gray area" to be explored, especially considering acceptance, deferral, waitlist and/or rejection notifications being received by personal phone calls, snail mail, email communications, etc.
Nature of the Beast?

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mr_toad
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Re: Michigan 2011

Postby mr_toad » Sun Jan 23, 2011 6:52 pm

cornhusker wrote:A contract, an agreement, verbal or written, exists between 2 or more parties, and is binding, right? If circumstances change, BOTH parties can agree to dissolve the contract at any time. A good amount of confusion exists in the current "cycle" as many schools have wildly varying degrees of obligation written into ED/EA/PT agreements. Assuming the individual involved in this cycle did NOT submit any "new" applications. If a good faith effort can be shown to have been made re: rescinding all outstanding apps. While not a frivolous matter, surely this is not the 1st time UM or any other school has dealt with this situation. It seems there is plenty of "gray area" to be explored, especially considering acceptance, deferral, waitlist and/or rejection notifications being received by personal phone calls, snail mail, email communications, etc.
Nature of the Beast?


And... what are the takeaways from this? Sorry, it's just very confusingly written.

r6_philly
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Re: Michigan 2011

Postby r6_philly » Sun Jan 23, 2011 6:53 pm

mr_toad wrote:
cornhusker wrote:A contract, an agreement, verbal or written, exists between 2 or more parties, and is binding, right? If circumstances change, BOTH parties can agree to dissolve the contract at any time. A good amount of confusion exists in the current "cycle" as many schools have wildly varying degrees of obligation written into ED/EA/PT agreements. Assuming the individual involved in this cycle did NOT submit any "new" applications. If a good faith effort can be shown to have been made re: rescinding all outstanding apps. While not a frivolous matter, surely this is not the 1st time UM or any other school has dealt with this situation. It seems there is plenty of "gray area" to be explored, especially considering acceptance, deferral, waitlist and/or rejection notifications being received by personal phone calls, snail mail, email communications, etc.
Nature of the Beast?


And... what are the takeaways from this? Sorry, it's just very confusingly written.


Where can I find an outline to this???

paulinaporizkova
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Re: Michigan 2011

Postby paulinaporizkova » Sun Jan 23, 2011 6:54 pm

r6_philly wrote:
mr_toad wrote:
cornhusker wrote:A contract, an agreement, verbal or written, exists between 2 or more parties, and is binding, right? If circumstances change, BOTH parties can agree to dissolve the contract at any time. A good amount of confusion exists in the current "cycle" as many schools have wildly varying degrees of obligation written into ED/EA/PT agreements. Assuming the individual involved in this cycle did NOT submit any "new" applications. If a good faith effort can be shown to have been made re: rescinding all outstanding apps. While not a frivolous matter, surely this is not the 1st time UM or any other school has dealt with this situation. It seems there is plenty of "gray area" to be explored, especially considering acceptance, deferral, waitlist and/or rejection notifications being received by personal phone calls, snail mail, email communications, etc.
Nature of the Beast?


And... what are the takeaways from this? Sorry, it's just very confusingly written.


Where can I find an outline to this???


+1

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mr_toad
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Re: Michigan 2011

Postby mr_toad » Sun Jan 23, 2011 6:56 pm

- Contracts may or may not be binding
- Parties can dissolve at any time
- Confusing cycle
- Subordinate clause without purpose
- Subordinate clause linked to previous subordinate clause
- Assumption
- Assertion
- Cry for help




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