Columbia 2011!

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T6Hopeful
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Re: Columbia 2011!

Postby T6Hopeful » Sun Dec 05, 2010 11:16 pm

cruelestgame wrote:or hoboken since it's out of the city

Touchè, that actually fits the profile perfectly. Hoboken's pretty awesome, I was just there last week.

Apollue
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Re: Columbia 2011!

Postby Apollue » Sun Dec 05, 2010 11:16 pm

T6Hopeful wrote:
Apollue wrote:Didn't anybody tell you? Morningside Heights is Hogwarts.


Does that make Harlem Hogsmeade?


Some would argue that. I think Knockturn Alley would be more analogous. Don't forget your bear mace.


Edit: Should probably mention I'm joking, of course. Harlem's a nice place. You don't need any sort of weaponry to walk around there, and the bad rap it gets is almost entirely undeserved. Manhattan's pretty safe... take care not to get raped in Central Park, though.

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T6Hopeful
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Re: Columbia 2011!

Postby T6Hopeful » Sun Dec 05, 2010 11:20 pm

Apollue wrote:
T6Hopeful wrote:
Apollue wrote:Didn't anybody tell you? Morningside Heights is Hogwarts.


Does that make Harlem Hogsmeade?


Some would argue that. I think Knockturn Alley would be more analogous. Don't forget your bear mace.


Edit: Should probably mention I'm joking, of course. Harlem's a nice place. You don't need any sort of weaponry to walk around there, and the bad rap it gets is almost entirely undeserved. Manhattan's pretty safe... take care not to get raped in Central Park, though.

Well to be fair, it WAS deserved not too long ago. After some gentrification, (rich) people realizing how awesome brownstones can be, and some brilliant community-focused initiatives (see Harlem Children's Zone), things are definitely starting to look good.

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shanemahsa
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Re: Columbia 2011!

Postby shanemahsa » Mon Dec 06, 2010 2:24 am

Apollue wrote:I assure you that I'm every bit as familiar with LSAT and GPA yields as every person who reads these forums is likely to be. Perhaps you think that I'm not well acquainted with these spreads, given my lack of participation on these forums... that'd be a mistake. We all know the spreads, but we don't know each other.
I like to think that communities like TLS are comparable to monasteries. If I were to stroll into my nearest monastery and ask a resident monk, "How do I get into heaven?", I'm sure he'd answer thoughtfully and deliberately. I bet he'd believe what he was saying, too. But this monk could never be certain that he's right because he's not responsible for making that decision. Similarly, it is foolish for a community of law school aspirants to pretend as if they understand what makes and does not make a successful application based on observation of a limited number of cases.

An admissions index will tell you a lot of things. Most importantly, it weeds out candidates who don't demonstrate the measurables that schools are looking for. But it will never tell you about the promise an applicant has, and that is adcoms are really looking for.

What those yields don't tell you is that for every dot on the scatter plot there are ten more that didn't bother to submit their numbers to TLS or LSN. A lot of them have quite different outcomes from their number twins, or whatever jargon you'd prefer to use to describe that situation. Despite what those yields you study might lead you to believe, you are always competing with someone who is identical or nearly identical to you as far as numbers go. Numbers only tell so much.
You should know that the only school that is satisfied with USNWR is Yale. None of the other schools are pleased with their ranking at all, I can guarantee you that much. And while law schools are very considerate of their placement in these rankings, in many cases there are a dozen applicants for one slot who will not alter a school's selectivity measurables (medians, percentiles, etc). This is when those writing samples really stand out. Oh, and as for the reliability of scatter-plots, I'd assume that some of it is because kids who submit their data to TLS and LSN are liable to be highly motivated and spend a lot of time on their essays to begin with. Don't assume that the data is accurate, and don't assume those are the only numbers out there. Conversely, there are a lot of kids with lower measurables who don't bother submitting to these sites - I can't even speculate why they wouldn't, I can't read their minds - who demonstrate a ton of potential that those scatter plots can never and will never convey accurately. Rest assured, adcoms can pick up on that.

Look at it from the perspective of a simple cost/benefit analysis. Law schools are offering you a spot in their class, which can be exceedingly valuable at certain institutions. They want to admit kids who will provide them some benefits down the road. They want to admit kids who are going to succeed in their respective fields. They want to admit movers and shakers of society - not just the type of kids who are gonna contribute hefty sums of money to an already-sizable endowment, but end up in positions of power promoting their school. HLS adores the publicity that a President-alumni gives them. I know you guys think that Harvard admissions are almost entirely a function of numbers, but I can assure you that they'd take a 174/3.9 over a 3.95/176 any day of the week if that 174 kid shows an incredible amount of promise in his personal statement and LOR. They want endowment money, yeah, powerful alumni will do much more for their rankings in the long run than a slight bump in their selectivity (Tell Stanford that, perenially sniffing Harvard's ass on those rankings despite their selectivity).

I just want you to know that this essay made you sound very smart and knowledgable. It was definitely worth creating a TLS profile just so you can share it with us. I learned something today! :roll:

Edit: BTW trc332 hasn't written me back yet.

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s0ph1e2007
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Re: Columbia 2011!

Postby s0ph1e2007 » Mon Dec 06, 2010 2:41 am

Columbia over Michigan?
Why?

(please don't respond with simply 'because NYC is awesome and everyone should want to live here')

Curry

Re: Columbia 2011!

Postby Curry » Mon Dec 06, 2010 4:49 am

s0ph1e2007 wrote:Columbia over Michigan?
Why?

(please don't respond with simply 'because NYC is awesome and everyone should want to live here')


Job. Prospects.

Apollue
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Re: Columbia 2011!

Postby Apollue » Mon Dec 06, 2010 5:27 am

shanemahsa wrote:
Apollue wrote:I assure you that I'm every bit as familiar with LSAT and GPA yields as every person who reads these forums is likely to be. Perhaps you think that I'm not well acquainted with these spreads, given my lack of participation on these forums... that'd be a mistake. We all know the spreads, but we don't know each other.
I like to think that communities like TLS are comparable to monasteries. If I were to stroll into my nearest monastery and ask a resident monk, "How do I get into heaven?", I'm sure he'd answer thoughtfully and deliberately. I bet he'd believe what he was saying, too. But this monk could never be certain that he's right because he's not responsible for making that decision. Similarly, it is foolish for a community of law school aspirants to pretend as if they understand what makes and does not make a successful application based on observation of a limited number of cases.

An admissions index will tell you a lot of things. Most importantly, it weeds out candidates who don't demonstrate the measurables that schools are looking for. But it will never tell you about the promise an applicant has, and that is adcoms are really looking for.

What those yields don't tell you is that for every dot on the scatter plot there are ten more that didn't bother to submit their numbers to TLS or LSN. A lot of them have quite different outcomes from their number twins, or whatever jargon you'd prefer to use to describe that situation. Despite what those yields you study might lead you to believe, you are always competing with someone who is identical or nearly identical to you as far as numbers go. Numbers only tell so much.
You should know that the only school that is satisfied with USNWR is Yale. None of the other schools are pleased with their ranking at all, I can guarantee you that much. And while law schools are very considerate of their placement in these rankings, in many cases there are a dozen applicants for one slot who will not alter a school's selectivity measurables (medians, percentiles, etc). This is when those writing samples really stand out. Oh, and as for the reliability of scatter-plots, I'd assume that some of it is because kids who submit their data to TLS and LSN are liable to be highly motivated and spend a lot of time on their essays to begin with. Don't assume that the data is accurate, and don't assume those are the only numbers out there. Conversely, there are a lot of kids with lower measurables who don't bother submitting to these sites - I can't even speculate why they wouldn't, I can't read their minds - who demonstrate a ton of potential that those scatter plots can never and will never convey accurately. Rest assured, adcoms can pick up on that.

Look at it from the perspective of a simple cost/benefit analysis. Law schools are offering you a spot in their class, which can be exceedingly valuable at certain institutions. They want to admit kids who will provide them some benefits down the road. They want to admit kids who are going to succeed in their respective fields. They want to admit movers and shakers of society - not just the type of kids who are gonna contribute hefty sums of money to an already-sizable endowment, but end up in positions of power promoting their school. HLS adores the publicity that a President-alumni gives them. I know you guys think that Harvard admissions are almost entirely a function of numbers, but I can assure you that they'd take a 174/3.9 over a 3.95/176 any day of the week if that 174 kid shows an incredible amount of promise in his personal statement and LOR. They want endowment money, yeah, powerful alumni will do much more for their rankings in the long run than a slight bump in their selectivity (Tell Stanford that, perenially sniffing Harvard's ass on those rankings despite their selectivity).

I just want you to know that this essay made you sound very smart and knowledgable. It was definitely worth creating a TLS profile just so you can share it with us. I learned something today! :roll:

Edit: BTW trc332 hasn't written me back yet.


If you needed any further proof that an excellent academic record isn't fully demonstrative of ability, you just provided it yourself. I'm sure you did excellent on the LSAT, but those impeccable patterns of inference you meet some sort of limit past the realm of standardized testing. They're just games, you know. What I mean by this is if you're going to accuse me of creating this account to 'impress' you, a moment's glance at my profile would have been sufficient to disprove that hypothesis. And while I have no doubt that you might have excelled at picking out main points from passages on your LSATs, you weren't able to repeat the feat here.

I'm not sure why you think that I posted so that I'd, er, "sound very smart and knowledgable [sic]". Please; I don't need to comfort myself by 'impressing' pre-law kids. I'm disappointed you'd even think that was the point of my post to begin with. I know where you guys are coming from, really, and a hyper-inflated ego is par for the course in this level of the law admissions game. I don't mean for that to be interpreted as a pithy insult, and it's certainly not directed at any individual or group in particular - kids with good grades and good test scores often extrapolate their academic success to things that they probably shouldn't.

Are you sure you'd be happy at a school like Columbia? I say this with some hesitation because I'm not sure what your academic background is, but if you discount any advice that goes your way because it sounds too academic... well, I'll let you find out for yourself. I've learned my lesson about sending a message to you, so I'll let experience do the work for me.

I'm getting wordy, and frankly I don't have the time to write novellas on here when they're being interpreted as ego-stroking to begin with. I didn't write that to impress you. I wrote it to give you some advice. If you think otherwise, you're missing the point. If you don't take it, you're making the admissions process easier for someone who might. Numbers are important, because they demonstrate raw academic potential. Writing is important because it demonstrates character. Good law schools look for both. The first is comparatively easy to come by, and your precious scatter-plots don't accurately depict the amount of competition you're facing. You're right in saying that there's a trend to be found in them, but there's no way I can possibly convey to you just how important other admissions factors are in teasing out potential from an application. Don't believe me? Go ahead, that's fine.

Sophie, I'm afraid the answer you're looking for is difficult for anyone else to answer. Where do you see yourself in ten years? A Columbia degree's probably more valuable in the NYC market, but Michigan's sort of removed from those markets and consequently has some portability... but when you're making a decision the degree should be the least of your worries. What do you want out of your law education? Do you see yourself doing research, participating in journals/reviews? Are you someone who would be able to take advantage of close interaction with your professors? All of these things are going to sway your decision a hell of a lot more than a few spots on the USNWR rankings, and there's no objective way to answer it.
Don't underestimate location, either. I'm not trying to sway you towards Columbia when I say that; plenty of people have trouble adjusting to the city atmosphere and would prefer to go elsewhere. You'll want to take into consideration whether you think you could be happy where you're going to school. It's not the most important thing to consider, but don't rule it out altogether.

Someone else mentioned jobs while I was writing this... keep in mind that placement's taken a hit almost everywhere as a result of economic conditions, and that will probably change as you're getting out of school. Columbia will always help you more than Michigan with regard to placement in NYC firms. If you excel at Michigan, there's no reason that you shouldn't compete with any Columbia grad elsewhere. On the whole it would probably be a little easier to do well at Michigan, so there's that too. I think the prestige that Columbia can afford will be offset entirely by a (slightly) less competitive class at Michigan, and thus your decision should reflect personal preference.
With that said, Columbia has an exceptionally low student:faculty ratio in a big-city, big-University environment that prides itself on research. And it's the best school in the history of the world. You wanted biased perspective, right?

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Deuce
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Re: Columbia 2011!

Postby Deuce » Mon Dec 06, 2010 5:30 am

tl;dr

all of you.

Curry

Re: Columbia 2011!

Postby Curry » Mon Dec 06, 2010 5:32 am

You really really really don't know what you are talking about. Columbia places better than Michigan. Period. It places better in CA. In Florida. In Texas. In every big legal market. It places better than Columbia.

Apollue
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Re: Columbia 2011!

Postby Apollue » Mon Dec 06, 2010 5:53 am

curryinaninstant wrote:You really really really don't know what you are talking about. Columbia places better than Michigan. Period. It places better in CA. In Florida. In Texas. In every big legal market. It places better than Columbia.



:lol:
I'm glad to hear that. Say, did you happen to read that little ditty about smart kids extrapolating their intelligence far more than they rightfully should?
Again, I have no doubt that you're quite intelligent. This is just rash conjecture on my part, but I've always believed that being more intelligent than your peers means that you get, well, a false sense of security. Bear with me. I think that you've been proven -right- so many times in the past that you've become conditioned to give responses with more certainty than you probably should.
I'm very familiar with the worth of a Columbia JD, thank you. And I believe the question that I was responding to dealt with whether Sophie should choose Michigan or Columbia. Therefore, if Sophie is take my advice at all she will first have to be admitted to both and presented with a choice. While I said that Columbia and Michigan both have merits - and I stand by that - I never argued that Columbia was less selective. Columbia is more selective than Michigan, and hence if she gets accepted to both it's reasonable to assume she's a bright girl - in fact, probably a stronger student academically than most of the kids at Michigan. Remember that the LSAT is a predictor of law school performance, and Columbia has a higher median GPA and LSAT than Michigan. A Columbia-caliber student is going to excel more than a Michigan-caliber student whether they attend Columbia or Michigan.
Let me re-iterate more clearly. My advice was only meant to be taken if Sophie's fortunate enough to be accepted at both institutions. If she is accepted at both, it is reasonable to assume that her academic performance was better - and, given that the LSAT is a predictor - will be better in law school than her peers who were accepted only to Michigan. This is why I said it would be easier to excel at Michigan than at Columbia in my previous post, and why I mentioned that Columbia's prestige would be offset by this.
The disparity in placement is marginal between Columbia and Michigan, though you're right in saying that it exists. Do those placement charts you've been reading compare how someone in the top 25% of their class at Columbia places in comparison to a student who is in the top 10% at Michigan? No? Well, then they aren't valid for analyzing how well Sophie would place. By being accepted at both Columbia and Michigan - and consequently attending the less-selective of the two - Sophie becomes a big fish in the Michigan pond.

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Deuce
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Re: Columbia 2011!

Postby Deuce » Mon Dec 06, 2010 5:57 am

Curious- why are you guys up this late arguing for no reason?

Apollue
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Re: Columbia 2011!

Postby Apollue » Mon Dec 06, 2010 6:03 am

Deuce wrote:Curious- why are you guys up this late arguing for no reason?


I should be doing other things, but I have a tendency to get side-tracked easily.
You raise a good point, though. I'm gonna shove off shortly, but sleep's gonna have to wait until I manage to get some shit done (not happening when I'm defending a dissertation to pre-law students). Good night, guys.

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St.Remy
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Re: Columbia 2011!

Postby St.Remy » Mon Dec 06, 2010 6:39 am

Apollue wrote: The disparity in placement is marginal between Columbia and Michigan, though you're right in saying that it exists. Do those placement charts you've been reading compare how someone in the top 25% of their class at Columbia places in comparison to a student who is in the top 10% at Michigan? No? Well, then they aren't valid for analyzing how well Sophie would place. By being accepted at both Columbia and Michigan - and consequently attending the less-selective of the two - Sophie becomes a big fish in the Michigan pond.



curryinaninstant wrote:You really really really don't know what you are talking about.


Vaulting over an additional 15% of your classmates by attending Michigan instead of Columbia= lolololololololololololololol.

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shanemahsa
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Re: Columbia 2011!

Postby shanemahsa » Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:07 am

@Apollue: dude relax I was kidding (I knew I should have used the winking smiley lol). But on a side note, you're kinda annoying. And please stop writing such long posts--they're unnecessary.

Edit: Oh and good luck to everyone this week!!!!!!

Apollue
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Re: Columbia 2011!

Postby Apollue » Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:13 am

shanemahsa wrote:@Apollue: dude relax I was kidding (I knew I should have used the winking smiley lol). But on a side note, you're kinda annoying. And please stop writing such long posts--they're unnecessary.

Edit: Oh and good luck to everyone this week!!!!!!


Good luck in law school and beyond, my friend.

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shanemahsa
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Re: Columbia 2011!

Postby shanemahsa » Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:33 am

Apollue wrote:
shanemahsa wrote:@Apollue: dude relax I was kidding (I knew I should have used the winking smiley lol). But on a side note, you're kinda annoying. And please stop writing such long posts--they're unnecessary.

Edit: Oh and good luck to everyone this week!!!!!!


Good luck in law school and beyond, my friend.

Thx, u2! :)

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WhatSarahSaid
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Re: Columbia 2011!

Postby WhatSarahSaid » Mon Dec 06, 2010 12:34 pm

You should know that the only school that is satisfied with USNWR is Yale. None of the other schools are pleased with their ranking at all, I can guarantee you that much. And while law schools are very considerate of their placement in these rankings, in many cases there are a dozen applicants for one slot who will not alter a school's selectivity measurables (medians, percentiles, etc). This is when those writing samples really stand out.


I'm just glad that I argued for Dr. Benally instead of that garbage floozy other doctor, then.

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jd2014!
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Re: Columbia 2011!

Postby jd2014! » Mon Dec 06, 2010 12:42 pm

WhatSarahSaid wrote:
You should know that the only school that is satisfied with USNWR is Yale. None of the other schools are pleased with their ranking at all, I can guarantee you that much. And while law schools are very considerate of their placement in these rankings, in many cases there are a dozen applicants for one slot who will not alter a school's selectivity measurables (medians, percentiles, etc). This is when those writing samples really stand out.


I'm just glad that I argued for Dr. Benally instead of that garbage floozy other doctor, then.


To be fair, I think (s)he is referring to personal statements, not LSAT writing sections...

Curry

Re: Columbia 2011!

Postby Curry » Mon Dec 06, 2010 12:49 pm

St.Remy wrote:
Apollue wrote: The disparity in placement is marginal between Columbia and Michigan, though you're right in saying that it exists. Do those placement charts you've been reading compare how someone in the top 25% of their class at Columbia places in comparison to a student who is in the top 10% at Michigan? No? Well, then they aren't valid for analyzing how well Sophie would place. By being accepted at both Columbia and Michigan - and consequently attending the less-selective of the two - Sophie becomes a big fish in the Michigan pond.



curryinaninstant wrote:You really really really don't know what you are talking about.


Vaulting over an additional 15% of your classmates by attending Michigan instead of Columbia= lolololololololololololololol.


My point exactly.

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vertex
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Re: Columbia 2011!

Postby vertex » Mon Dec 06, 2010 12:54 pm

IN! Got the email this morning. 3.74/172.

Today's the big day!!

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piccolittle
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Re: Columbia 2011!

Postby piccolittle » Mon Dec 06, 2010 12:56 pm

vertex wrote:IN! Got the email this morning. 3.74/172.

Today's the big day!!


CONGRATULATIONS!!! :)
Last edited by piccolittle on Mon Dec 06, 2010 1:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.

4102011
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Re: Columbia 2011!

Postby 4102011 » Mon Dec 06, 2010 12:56 pm

vertex wrote:IN! Got the email this morning. 3.74/172.

Today's the big day!!


Congrats!!!

Curry

Re: Columbia 2011!

Postby Curry » Mon Dec 06, 2010 12:57 pm

Nice! Congrats!!

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shanemahsa
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Re: Columbia 2011!

Postby shanemahsa » Mon Dec 06, 2010 12:58 pm

vertex wrote:IN! Got the email this morning. 3.74/172.

Today's the big day!!

Winnar!!!!!

Ghost
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Re: Columbia 2011!

Postby Ghost » Mon Dec 06, 2010 1:08 pm

.
Last edited by Ghost on Wed Aug 31, 2011 12:02 am, edited 1 time in total.




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