A Double Bind:Law school v. Debt v. Unemployement

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agentzer0
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Re: A Double Bind:Law school v. Debt v. Unemployement

Postby agentzer0 » Wed Jun 30, 2010 7:09 pm

Rikkugrrl wrote:
bankruptedcasino wrote:
jarofsoup wrote:I would pick a major like finance, business, economics, biology, chemistry, engineering. Something that gives you skills.


ATTENTION UNDERGRADS! TITCR!!

The only majors worth pursuing in college in the New Economy ... EVEN IF you're planning on going to law school:
*A skill or trade (Business, Engineering)
*Pre-med

Take it from me. I graduated four years ago with a PoliSci major when they were handing out jobs like candy. My interviewer for my first job said, "It's okay you majored in PoliSci. All we're looking for is the degree."

Fast forward three years later. My brother graduates college with a Sociology degree. No interviews. Nothing. Nada. Zip. Takes PT retail job to cover student loans and lives with mom and dad. Interviewers ask, "Why sociology? Why didn't you want to major in a skill or trade?"

If working the fryer at Burger King with your Bachelor of Arts sounds like a grand idea, then please continue on with your worthless Roman Literature degree.

For the rest of you UG's that are smart: immediately head to the registrar's office and change your major.


All these majors share a common trait: They're heavy either in math or science. What if you're really bad at both?


I think, honestly, that this is just a reflection of the modern economy and the current valuation of its requisite skills.

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Merr
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Re: A Double Bind:Law school v. Debt v. Unemployement

Postby Merr » Wed Jun 30, 2010 7:11 pm

romothesavior wrote:
bankruptedcasino wrote:ATTENTION UNDERGRADS! TITCR!!

The only majors worth pursuing in college in the New Economy ... EVEN IF you're planning on going to law school:
*A skill or trade (Business, Engineering)
*Pre-med

Take it from me. I graduated four years ago with a PoliSci major when they were handing out jobs like candy. My interviewer for my first job said, "It's okay you majored in PoliSci. All we're looking for is the degree."

Fast forward three years later. My brother graduates college with a Sociology degree. No interviews. Nothing. Nada. Zip. Takes PT retail job to cover student loans and lives with mom and dad. Interviewers ask, "Why sociology? Why didn't you want to major in a skill or trade?"

If working the fryer at Burger King with your Bachelor of Arts sounds like a grand idea, then please continue on with your worthless Roman Literature degree.

For the rest of you UG's that are smart: immediately head to the registrar's office and change your major.


I strongly disagree. The problem isn't that lib arts degrees aren't marketable, its that most lib arts students don't know how to market themselves. Their heads are in the clouds and they don't think about things like internships, networking, etc. I can tell you that I could without a doubt have a job right now if I hadn't gone the law schools route, either in a politician's officer who I interned for or at a Fortune 500 company that I interned for.


+1.

As a person with a lib arts degree it did take me a while to learn the ropes of how to market myself, but I have found some suitable employment for my time between UG and Law school. On top of that had I not chosen to go the law school route I could have secured a fairly nice position w/small salary + split commission in RE.

Pearalegal
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Re: A Double Bind:Law school v. Debt v. Unemployement

Postby Pearalegal » Wed Jun 30, 2010 7:13 pm

Anthropology and Creative Writing major, 4 job offers before graduation. I tire of people blaming their job problems on their lib arts degrees.

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Matthies
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Re: A Double Bind:Law school v. Debt v. Unemployement

Postby Matthies » Wed Jun 30, 2010 7:18 pm

Protip: if your UG major is the only thing you got going for you, you can spin, you can talk about, your entire resume is based upon. GETTING JOB - YOUR DOING IT WRONG. Your major should only be a minor part of your entire employment packaging, you should be talking about what you can do for the employer, not what you lack. Putting the focus on the skills you have learned in the humanities that can translate to any job (and make them focused on the job your applying to, whatever it is), that's what you goota figure out. Scanning the want ads for HUMANITIES GRAD WANTED is not how you do it.

Pearalegal
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Re: A Double Bind:Law school v. Debt v. Unemployement

Postby Pearalegal » Wed Jun 30, 2010 7:20 pm

Matthies wrote:Protip: if your UG major is the only thing you got going for you, you can spin, you can talk about, your entire resume is based upon. GETTING JOB - YOUR DOING IT WRONG. Your major should only be a minor part of your entire employment packaging, you should be talking about what you can do for the employer, not what you lack. Putting the focus on the skills you have learned in the humanities that can translate to any job (and make them focused on the job your applying to, whatever it is), that's what you goota figure out. Scanning the want ads for HUMANITIES GRAD WANTED is not how you do it.


Yes. I think the problem with most humanities majors is that they picked their major with no real direction or passion, and that lack of direction and drive translated into them screwing up building their resume and networking efficently before graduation. Then they look at all their engineering friends and figure its simply their Poli Sci degree thats the issue. Boohoo.

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Matthies
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Re: A Double Bind:Law school v. Debt v. Unemployement

Postby Matthies » Wed Jun 30, 2010 7:25 pm

Merr wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
bankruptedcasino wrote:ATTENTION UNDERGRADS! TITCR!!

The only majors worth pursuing in college in the New Economy ... EVEN IF you're planning on going to law school:
*A skill or trade (Business, Engineering)
*Pre-med

Take it from me. I graduated four years ago with a PoliSci major when they were handing out jobs like candy. My interviewer for my first job said, "It's okay you majored in PoliSci. All we're looking for is the degree."

Fast forward three years later. My brother graduates college with a Sociology degree. No interviews. Nothing. Nada. Zip. Takes PT retail job to cover student loans and lives with mom and dad. Interviewers ask, "Why sociology? Why didn't you want to major in a skill or trade?"

If working the fryer at Burger King with your Bachelor of Arts sounds like a grand idea, then please continue on with your worthless Roman Literature degree.

For the rest of you UG's that are smart: immediately head to the registrar's office and change your major.


I strongly disagree. The problem isn't that lib arts degrees aren't marketable, its that most lib arts students don't know how to market themselves. Their heads are in the clouds and they don't think about things like internships, networking, etc. I can tell you that I could without a doubt have a job right now if I hadn't gone the law schools route, either in a politician's officer who I interned for or at a Fortune 500 company that I interned for.


+1.

As a person with a lib arts degree it did take me a while to learn the ropes of how to market myself, but I have found some suitable employment for my time between UG and Law school. On top of that had I not chosen to go the law school route I could have secured a fairly nice position w/small salary + split commission in RE.


This is really an interesting point. I did real estate for eight years before I even got my UG, then a MS then the JD. The skills I learned in real estate, marketing yourself, how to talk to anybody, how to spin the positives, how to listen to people, how to come up with creative solutions and only getting paid if someone you spent every day of the last three weeks with actually BUYS something or you SELL something have done more for me and my legal career than anything I learned in law school. i always found it interesting hat Ken, the founder of the site, left big law for real estate. Interesting because I can totally see how being good at one would make you good at the other. The law is the law, how you sell it and yourself to the judge, the jury or client is what separates lawyers.

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Matthies
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Re: A Double Bind:Law school v. Debt v. Unemployement

Postby Matthies » Wed Jun 30, 2010 7:29 pm

Pearalegal wrote:
Matthies wrote:Protip: if your UG major is the only thing you got going for you, you can spin, you can talk about, your entire resume is based upon. GETTING JOB - YOUR DOING IT WRONG. Your major should only be a minor part of your entire employment packaging, you should be talking about what you can do for the employer, not what you lack. Putting the focus on the skills you have learned in the humanities that can translate to any job (and make them focused on the job your applying to, whatever it is), that's what you goota figure out. Scanning the want ads for HUMANITIES GRAD WANTED is not how you do it.


Yes. I think the problem with most humanities majors is that they picked their major with no real direction or passion, and that lack of direction and drive translated into them screwing up building their resume and networking efficently before graduation. Then they look at all their engineering friends and figure its simply their Poli Sci degree thats the issue. Boohoo.


Its the exact same thing with law grads, they see 2007 when any t14 kid who even druled on himself in the interview could land a 160k job and then when they can't from Idaho law school its becuase they got sucked into the whole law school "scam"Life's tough, some folks get jobs handed to them, others got to work for them. Give yourself better chances by figuring out what "working for them" actually means before your out of work and find out uyou have no idea how to find work.

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Merr
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Re: A Double Bind:Law school v. Debt v. Unemployement

Postby Merr » Wed Jun 30, 2010 7:35 pm

Matthies wrote:
Merr wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
bankruptedcasino wrote:ATTENTION UNDERGRADS! TITCR!!

The only majors worth pursuing in college in the New Economy ... EVEN IF you're planning on going to law school:
*A skill or trade (Business, Engineering)
*Pre-med

Take it from me. I graduated four years ago with a PoliSci major when they were handing out jobs like candy. My interviewer for my first job said, "It's okay you majored in PoliSci. All we're looking for is the degree."

Fast forward three years later. My brother graduates college with a Sociology degree. No interviews. Nothing. Nada. Zip. Takes PT retail job to cover student loans and lives with mom and dad. Interviewers ask, "Why sociology? Why didn't you want to major in a skill or trade?"

If working the fryer at Burger King with your Bachelor of Arts sounds like a grand idea, then please continue on with your worthless Roman Literature degree.

For the rest of you UG's that are smart: immediately head to the registrar's office and change your major.


I strongly disagree. The problem isn't that lib arts degrees aren't marketable, its that most lib arts students don't know how to market themselves. Their heads are in the clouds and they don't think about things like internships, networking, etc. I can tell you that I could without a doubt have a job right now if I hadn't gone the law schools route, either in a politician's officer who I interned for or at a Fortune 500 company that I interned for.


+1.

As a person with a lib arts degree it did take me a while to learn the ropes of how to market myself, but I have found some suitable employment for my time between UG and Law school. On top of that had I not chosen to go the law school route I could have secured a fairly nice position w/small salary + split commission in RE.


This is really an interesting point. I did real estate for eight years before I even got my UG, then a MS then the JD. The skills I learned in real estate, marketing yourself, how to talk to anybody, how to spin the positives, how to listen to people, how to come up with creative solutions and only getting paid if someone you spent every day of the last three weeks with actually BUYS something or you SELL something have done more for me and my legal career than anything I learned in law school. i always found it interesting hat Ken, the founder of the site, left big law for real estate. Interesting because I can totally see how being good at one would make you good at the other. The law is the law, how you sell it and yourself to the judge, the jury or client is what separates lawyers.


I credit my limited time in Real Estate for 90% of my networking and marketing skills. Working on 100% commission, or even what I was offered (which would have been largely contingent on my ability to convert leads) can be brutal though.

jarofsoup
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Re: A Double Bind:Law school v. Debt v. Unemployement

Postby jarofsoup » Wed Jun 30, 2010 8:20 pm

I would say that if you did a liberal arts degree, you should try to intern atleast. What I meant about a liberal art degree is that it often lacks the focus that other degrees do.


I am not blaming it. I just regret doing it.

yo!
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Re: A Double Bind:Law school v. Debt v. Unemployement

Postby yo! » Wed Jun 30, 2010 8:52 pm

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Last edited by yo! on Fri May 11, 2012 12:36 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Matthies
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Re: A Double Bind:Law school v. Debt v. Unemployement

Postby Matthies » Wed Jun 30, 2010 9:01 pm

jarofsoup wrote:I would say that if you did a liberal arts degree, you should try to intern atleast. What I meant about a liberal art degree is that it often lacks the focus that other degrees do.


I am not blaming it. I just regret doing it.


Agree with this, other degrees will get you a job simply based on the name of the degree, with a liberal arts degree you just have to work harder to find a job because of the name of the degree.

Pearalegal
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Re: A Double Bind:Law school v. Debt v. Unemployement

Postby Pearalegal » Wed Jun 30, 2010 9:17 pm

Ugh. I still don't understand why anyone is surprise why a general lib arts degree doesn't automatically open doors. How many people meet someone who calls themselves a political scientist at a bar that isn't a struggling grad student desperate to get laid? Anyone with a brain knows an engineering or nursing or business (sometimes) student is going to have a heck of an easier time finding a job than a sociology major...in this economy or any other. Fact of life. Its also a fact of life that most college students graduate with a liberal arts degree. Most do just fine. Even those wacky MFAs who actually know whats up.

You should intern no matter what degree you're going for, at the least. How is that even a statement and not just an obvious fact that doesn't need to be said?

Hey-O
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Re: A Double Bind:Law school v. Debt v. Unemployement

Postby Hey-O » Wed Jun 30, 2010 11:59 pm

Matthies wrote:
jarofsoup wrote:I would say that if you did a liberal arts degree, you should try to intern atleast. What I meant about a liberal art degree is that it often lacks the focus that other degrees do.


I am not blaming it. I just regret doing it.


Agree with this, other degrees will get you a job simply based on the name of the degree, with a liberal arts degree you just have to work harder to find a job because of the name of the degree.


+1 and the real point is that a lot of students don't know this. You're saying that you got jobs from your skills NOT from your degree. Which is the whole point. A liberal arts degree is basically neutral. It isn't going to keep from getting a job, but its not going to help you that much either. You have to do a lot more.

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romothesavior
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Re: A Double Bind:Law school v. Debt v. Unemployement

Postby romothesavior » Thu Jul 01, 2010 8:37 am

Hey-O wrote:
Matthies wrote:
jarofsoup wrote:I would say that if you did a liberal arts degree, you should try to intern atleast. What I meant about a liberal art degree is that it often lacks the focus that other degrees do.


I am not blaming it. I just regret doing it.


Agree with this, other degrees will get you a job simply based on the name of the degree, with a liberal arts degree you just have to work harder to find a job because of the name of the degree.


+1 and the real point is that a lot of students don't know this. You're saying that you got jobs from your skills NOT from your degree. Which is the whole point. A liberal arts degree is basically neutral. It isn't going to keep from getting a job, but its not going to help you that much either. You have to do a lot more.


This.

The Fortune 500 (more like Fortune 50, I believe) company I am interning with barely even looks at your degree for most jobs. They simply don't care. They want people who can write, critically think, work efficiently, and act professionally. There are poly sci majors working in just about every department in the company.

The problem is that 1) there is a defeatest attitude among lib arts majors and 2) lib arts majors don't go about job searching and networking the right way. Is it ia marketable degree? Eh... not really. But it isn't nearly as bad as music or art where you aren't learning how to write and think. If you are a lib arts major and you can write, communicate effectively, and come off like you know what the hell you're doing, then getting a job isn't impossible. (Hard to do in this economy, absolutely... but not nearly as difficult as some of you make it out to be.)

Hey-O
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Re: A Double Bind:Law school v. Debt v. Unemployement

Postby Hey-O » Thu Jul 01, 2010 5:54 pm

romothesavior wrote:
Hey-O wrote:
Matthies wrote:
jarofsoup wrote:I would say that if you did a liberal arts degree, you should try to intern atleast. What I meant about a liberal art degree is that it often lacks the focus that other degrees do.


I am not blaming it. I just regret doing it.


Agree with this, other degrees will get you a job simply based on the name of the degree, with a liberal arts degree you just have to work harder to find a job because of the name of the degree.


+1 and the real point is that a lot of students don't know this. You're saying that you got jobs from your skills NOT from your degree. Which is the whole point. A liberal arts degree is basically neutral. It isn't going to keep from getting a job, but its not going to help you that much either. You have to do a lot more.


This.

The Fortune 500 (more like Fortune 50, I believe) company I am interning with barely even looks at your degree for most jobs. They simply don't care. They want people who can write, critically think, work efficiently, and act professionally. There are poly sci majors working in just about every department in the company.

The problem is that 1) there is a defeatest attitude among lib arts majors and 2) lib arts majors don't go about job searching and networking the right way. Is it ia marketable degree? Eh... not really. But it isn't nearly as bad as music or art where you aren't learning how to write and think. If you are a lib arts major and you can write, communicate effectively, and come off like you know what the hell you're doing, then getting a job isn't impossible. (Hard to do in this economy, absolutely... but not nearly as difficult as some of you make it out to be.)


Credited, but I still encourage people (especially people without clear goals) to get into majors that have more clear career paths. Or go to trade school. A liberal arts degree should not be the, I guess I'll waste four years option that most people take.

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gdane
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Re: A Double Bind:Law school v. Debt v. Unemployement

Postby gdane » Thu Jul 01, 2010 6:19 pm

Would marketing or broadcast journalism be better in your opinion? Reason I ask is because many liberal arts majors choose to be liberal arts majors because they suck at math, science or both. I wanted to be a biology major, but when I saw how much advanced math was involved, I decided against it. So, by default (also cause I thought you needed polsci for law school) I chose Political Science. Looking back I wouldve definitely have done something else.

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romothesavior
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Re: A Double Bind:Law school v. Debt v. Unemployement

Postby romothesavior » Thu Jul 01, 2010 8:32 pm

One of the smartest, most professional, most respected girls at my UG is still searching for a job. She had almost a 4.0 in business and won the top individual honor at my school. But she is unemployed because she has been very passive in looking for jobs and too narrow in her job search. Meanwhile, I know a few lib arts majors with decent jobs lined up because they put themselves in the right position and hustled.

I know these are just little anecdotes, but I'm sure other people are seeing similar things happen. The economy is messed up, people.

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Matthies
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Re: A Double Bind:Law school v. Debt v. Unemployement

Postby Matthies » Fri Jul 02, 2010 1:55 pm

romothesavior wrote:The Fortune 500 (more like Fortune 50, I believe) company I am interning with barely even looks at your degree for most jobs. They simply don't care. They want people who can write, critically think, work efficiently, and act professionally. There are poly sci majors working in just about every department in the company.


This is EXACTLY it, and this, not the name of your degree is what you highlight. As a liberal arts magor you can THINK, WRITE, ANALYIZE, those are skills that trasfer to any job, so that's what you play UP, and play down the degree name, your resume/cover letter should focus in the skills you have that transfer to a job, not what your degree is in. Uinv of X, Poli Sci, thats it for degree, then in the next sections Skills you highlight the skills you have that fit the employers needs, to many people put thier degree then think that will have some impact on the employer. It might if your applying for a CS job and your degree is in CS, but otherwise you need to show the employer WHY they should hire YOU, not just assume they will figure it out on thier own. Spell it out what skills you have that they need you for this job to the point like your expalning it to a 10 year old. never, never assume an emloyer will look at any degree and think you have X skills, SAY you have X skills and WHY the employer needs them. Crtical thinking, writing, ablity top communciate with people are universal skills needed in ANY job, so focus your lib arts resume on those skills you DO have.

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gdane
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Re: A Double Bind:Law school v. Debt v. Unemployement

Postby gdane » Fri Jul 02, 2010 3:25 pm

Anyne want to share their PoliSci resume that downgrades their degree and focuses on skills? Id love to see one for ideas.

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Matthies
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Re: A Double Bind:Law school v. Debt v. Unemployement

Postby Matthies » Fri Jul 02, 2010 3:36 pm

gdane5 wrote:Anyne want to share their PoliSci resume that downgrades their degree and focuses on skills? Id love to see one for ideas.


To be honst ever resume is going to be very diffrent. The best thing to do would be to google "resume tips" and pick up a book on resumes/cover letters. Its the same with your law degree, if you went to yale, you make that the focus, if you went to state TTT you focus on your skills/experince. Writuing a good resume and cover letter is a learned skill, you have to read about it, research about it, and do it to get it. For LS resumes pick up the Gurrlia Tactics book, for other jobes What Color is your Parachute used to be the go to book, not sure if its been update though so check amazon. Really "how to get a job, write a resume and cover letter: should be a required corse in every UG program and in law school. but its not, so you will be way above the computition if you take the time to self teach yourself on how to do it right.

cr073137
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Re: A Double Bind:Law school v. Debt v. Unemployement

Postby cr073137 » Fri Jul 02, 2010 4:54 pm

gdane5 wrote:Anyne want to share their PoliSci resume that downgrades their degree and focuses on skills? Id love to see one for ideas.


Your resume shoudlnt downgrade anything, it should show everything you have to offer. I studied Public Policy, almost as vague as poli sci, my school is by no means a "top school" and I had several offers before even graduating in the midst of the recession. I agree with many people here, you need to write well, that is so important. I screened resumes at my job for my replacement and so many well-qualified people with shitty cover letters didnt get a call, and the ones that did, we already had in the back of our head that they have poor writing skills, none got hired.

People who are good at getting jobs will always be good, even graduating from a TTT school. It takes a lot more than GPA and the prestige of your school. I cant comment on Law firms because unlike most ppl here, I can admit that 0L,1L, and even some 3Ls are not really that qualified to comment on how to land a job in a law firm. We all based our opinions from data we know for a fact is not 100% accurate.

How to get a job was almost a course at my school. The career services would prepare you from how to dress/eat/have small-talk to writing and tailoring resumes and mock interviews. I think that law schools should put more emphasis in how to train their students in landing jobs instead of focusing on how to play the numbers so they could have 100% employment rate.




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