Thomas Jefferson School of Law

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WWAD
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Re: Thomas Jefferson School of Law

Postby WWAD » Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:20 pm

Birdman wrote:They don't seem to answer emails very often, has anyone else noticed this?


I did, I asked for info from 3 people about a scholarship and had to resend the e-mails a few weeks later. I was kind of excited to have to decide between CW and TJ, but TJ took themselves out of it early by not being very into helping. I was real intrigued by the new place. Have you been by there lately?

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Birdman
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Re: Thomas Jefferson School of Law

Postby Birdman » Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:50 pm

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Last edited by Birdman on Sun Mar 04, 2012 7:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

WWAD
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Re: Thomas Jefferson School of Law

Postby WWAD » Thu Jun 03, 2010 10:19 pm

Actually TJ attrition rate is higher, 30% instead of 20%. 22 students dropped from TJ for academics, 28 from CW. I am certainly nervous about it because it is so out of your control when you only get one test, but I am willing to work. I just wanted to try not to leave SD and have as little debt as possible, so it works for me, or I hope it does.

imacpa
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Re: Thomas Jefferson School of Law

Postby imacpa » Thu Jun 03, 2010 10:55 pm

WWAD wrote:Actually TJ attrition rate is higher, 30% instead of 20%. 22 students dropped from TJ for academics, 28 from CW. I am certainly nervous about it because it is so out of your control when you only get one test, but I am willing to work. I just wanted to try not to leave SD and have as little debt as possible, so it works for me, or I hope it does.


I can certainly understand the attrition rate. For the amount of money to spend at a school with such a high rate I would think twice about going there or any other school that flunks out more than 15% of their 1L class. If you're going to attend a school with that kind of attrition, you might be better off going to a mid to lower tier state school with a much cheaper tuition rate.....schools like Southern Illinois, Wyoming, Idaho, Missouri-Kansas City, or North Carolina Central, for example. You can always do your first two years out of state and do your last year as a visiting student in the jurisdiction where you plan to practice.

mattpen
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Re: Thomas Jefferson School of Law

Postby mattpen » Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:56 pm

I've had trouble getting e-mails replied to as well, if I haven't heard anything for a day or two I forward the original e-mail to Dean Kransberger, mention I didn't hear anything back and she usually gets back to me in a day or two. Only way to do it I guess :/

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RayFinkle
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Re: Thomas Jefferson School of Law

Postby RayFinkle » Fri Jun 04, 2010 5:38 pm

I don't go to TJ or CW, nor do I know anything about either of them... but one thing you really need to consider is how well you have to do in order to keep the money you are offered. At some of these smaller schools they have very tough grade requirements (it's one of the ways they keep you there and have you pay higher tuition while allowing them to reallocate money to kids who did well and they want to keep).

Not sure if this point was already made, but just keep it in mind.

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Birdman
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Re: Thomas Jefferson School of Law

Postby Birdman » Fri Jun 04, 2010 7:05 pm

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Last edited by Birdman on Sun Mar 04, 2012 7:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

WWAD
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Re: Thomas Jefferson School of Law

Postby WWAD » Sat Jun 05, 2010 2:33 am

Birdman wrote:Yeah, my scholly is stay in the top 30% after first year and I can keep it for the next year, etc. I got nothing at CW though (thought maybe I'd get some financial aid like Syracuse and Vermont did but nope nothing), that's $64,000 for one year, and if I'm unfortunate enough to fail out that's debt for nothing. I already have $55,000 in debt from UG, it seems insane that in one year I would more than double it. I think in my situation its just not worth it for a slightly better school.


There is no way, which ever offered more is the way to go.

subprimeJD
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Re: Thomas Jefferson School of Law

Postby subprimeJD » Tue Jun 15, 2010 12:15 am

Class of 2009 TJSL grad here:

Graduated with median grades, no law review or moot court. Clerked with solo practitioners during my 2nd and 3rd year (unpaid). Passed the bar on my first try and got admitted to state bar in Dec of 09. Still unemployed. I do some hourly work here and there for a solo practitioner. I owe 90k and if it wasnt for my parents I would be in deep shit. Have sent out 100's of resumes and no responses. The only reason that I even get the 15hrs per week, every other week, is because i referred a PI case to him.

Of the students that did pass the July 09 bar (47%) most of them are either unemployed or are practicing shitlaw like myself on a part time basis. Most of the students that were top law review types are working in Plaintiff's PI firms I kid you not. All those fucking papers on International Patent Law or Int Arbitration, just to call up insurance adjusters and beg for settlements.

TJSL is a horrible law school and will leave your life in ruins. If you fully finance it you might as well hang yourself as the student loans are nondischargeable in bankruptcy court. Oh and for those on scholarships, good luck keeping them. After the first year they will grade you down and you will be forced to rack up the loans.


You have been warned.

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Birdman
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Re: Thomas Jefferson School of Law

Postby Birdman » Tue Jun 15, 2010 2:05 am

subprimeJD wrote:Class of 2009 TJSL grad here:

Graduated with median grades, no law review or moot court. Clerked with solo practitioners during my 2nd and 3rd year (unpaid). Passed the bar on my first try and got admitted to state bar in Dec of 09. Still unemployed. I do some hourly work here and there for a solo practitioner. I owe 90k and if it wasnt for my parents I would be in deep shit. Have sent out 100's of resumes and no responses. The only reason that I even get the 15hrs per week, every other week, is because i referred a PI case to him.

Of the students that did pass the July 09 bar (47%) most of them are either unemployed or are practicing shitlaw like myself on a part time basis. Most of the students that were top law review types are working in Plaintiff's PI firms I kid you not. All those fucking papers on International Patent Law or Int Arbitration, just to call up insurance adjusters and beg for settlements.

TJSL is a horrible law school and will leave your life in ruins. If you fully finance it you might as well hang yourself as the student loans are nondischargeable in bankruptcy court. Oh and for those on scholarships, good luck keeping them. After the first year they will grade you down and you will be forced to rack up the loans.


You have been warned.


What type of law job were you aiming for? Did you specialize in any type of law during school? You mention that you didn't do moot court or law review, did you participate in any other activities? Just curious.

subprimeJD
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Re: Thomas Jefferson School of Law

Postby subprimeJD » Tue Jun 15, 2010 5:29 am

Birdman:

Wasnt really concerned about specializing in any specific field. The elective courses I took were your bread and butter law practice such as: cal civ pro, family law, community property, labor law, immigration, trial practice. I was looking into being a litigator, a trial guy that would handle business, personal injury, and labor disputes.

With regards to law review and moot court, when you get in these programs you always put them on your resume. I participated in some small groups but the important things are LR and MC.

Im not trying to be an asshole and the last thing I would have ever of thought upon graduating is that I would be on TLS forums talking crap on my old law school. However, I feel like I got scammed. 3 yrs of school, so much money, time, stress, mpre, bar exam, moral character application, fees, fees, fees!!! It truly is frustrating bro, I believed that I would have improved by life by going to law school. I was dead wrong.

I know how you are feeling right now, its June and you start school in 2 months. I know your all excited, nervous, and anxious. I felt the same way back in the summer of 2006. But take my word for it because ive done it and im telling you its not pretty on the other side. Back then I believed that law school would be worth the investment and mind you this was before the economy tanked. In the beginning of my 3rd year I learned how truly nasty it was for tier 4 grads, especially tier 4 grads that dont make the top 10%. Pre-crisis it was "possible" to get a mediocre job with good grades and strong connections coming out of a tier 4. However, even before the crash of 2008 many tier 4 grads never found full time legal employment. Many of them would practice part time but since they couldnt get by they drifted off into other fields, many of them being fields they worked in BEFORE they went to law school. Dont be fooled by the anecdotal stories of how "this grad drives a porsche" or how "this other alum is a big crim guy". What you NEED to see is real, hard data of employment stats and salaries. And so you know, law schools blatantly lie about these stats to lure in unsuspecting 0L's.

Today things are outright brutal. Too many law schools and too many JD's getting pumped out every year. For example, my bar number is in the 268,000's. One of my buddies got admitted in dec 2003 and his bar number is at 227,000! That's 40,000 attorneys in 6 years. A 17.6% increase in the amount of California attorneys in 6 yrs? Where is the ABA when you really need them?

Conclusion: too many lawyers, not enough clients. There just is no demand for tier 4 boys in the legal profession.

Peace

ps
If you want to talk hit me up on PM and ill give you my info. Ill give you some insight scoops on the class of 09, where they work, and how many of them are languishing with student loans in deferrment or forebearance.

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Birdman
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Re: Thomas Jefferson School of Law

Postby Birdman » Tue Jun 15, 2010 12:07 pm

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Last edited by Birdman on Sun Mar 04, 2012 7:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

subprimeJD
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Re: Thomas Jefferson School of Law

Postby subprimeJD » Tue Jun 15, 2010 2:03 pm

Trust me, Im not hurting anyones chances of future employment by trashing my school on a web site because they wont get jobs regardless. My hatred for the law school cartel extends beyond TJSL, its all tier 3's and tier 4's. The tuitions continue to rise irrespective of graduates earning potential.

Check out this load of crap

Employed:
Private Practice: 45.7%
Salary Range: $36,000 - $108,000
Average Salary: $64,742

Business: 17.0%
Salary Range: $20,000 - $135,000
Average Salary: $69,449

Government & Public Interest: 12.4%
Salary Range: $59,000 - $95,000
Average Salary: $65,250

Judical Clerkship: 5.9%
Salary Range: $44,100 - $74,000
Average Salary: $56,069

Academic: 5.3%
Salary Range: $60,000 - $60,000
Average Salary: $60,000

Pursuing Advanced Degree: 4.1% Not Seeking Employment: 4.1%
Seeking Employment: 5.5%

These numbers are so cooked its not even funny. Here's some links to prove my point.

This is a blog posting from a law professor, very recent
http://balkin.blogspot.com/2010/06/wake ... rs-to.html

Wake Up, Fellow Law Professors, to the Casualties of Our Enterprise


Brian Tamanaha


It’s grim reading. The observations are raw, bitter, and filled with despair. It is easier to avert our eyes and carry on with our pursuits. But please, take a few moments and force yourself to look at Third Tier Reality, Esq. Never, Exposing the Law School Scam, Jobless Juris Doctor, Temporary Attorney: The Sweatshop Edition, and linked sites. Read the posts and the comments. These sites are proliferating, with thousands of hits.

Look past the occasional vulgarity and disgusting pictures. Don’t dismiss the posters as whiners. To a person they accept responsibility for their poor decisions. But they make a strong case that something is deeply wrong with law schools.

Their complaint is that non-elite law schools are selling a fraudulent bill of goods. Law schools advertise deceptively high rates of employment and misleading income figures. Many graduates can’t get jobs. Many graduates end up as temp attorneys working for $15 to $20 dollars an hour on two week gigs, with no benefits. The luckier graduates land jobs in government or small firms for maybe $45,000, with limited prospects for improvement. A handful of lottery winners score big firm jobs.

And for the opportunity to enter a saturated legal market with long odds against them, the tens of thousands newly minted lawyers who graduate each year from non-elite schools will have paid around $150,000 in tuition and living expenses, and given up three years of income. Many leave law school with well over $100,000 in non-dischargeable debt, obligated to pay $1,000 a month for thirty years.

This dismal situation was not created by the current recession—which merely spread the pain up the chain into the lower reaches of elite schools. This has been going on for years.


Project on law school transparency
http://abovethelaw.com/2010/04/increasi ... o-be-done/

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2009/0202/060.html

sumus romani
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Re: Thomas Jefferson School of Law

Postby sumus romani » Tue Jun 15, 2010 2:18 pm

Birdman wrote:It seems like you're really pissed, and you probably have every right to be. But I would keep in mind that practicing lawyers do visit this site, the reputation of a school can mean a lot when starting out to get a job and trashing the place who's name is on the degree you're trying to get a job with won't do you or your classmates any favors. Now, the employers may already have their minds made up about the school. But a lot may not, especially those who have never heard of the school. TLS threads tend to come up pretty frequently in google searches, would you want posts like yours to be the first things someone reads about your school when they're deciding to hire you? Probably not. In any event, I'm sorry things have been shitty for you since graduation, but if you read other threads on here there are even T14 grads in situations just like yours. I'm not saying you should come on here and lie and paint a rosy picture but being as candid as you are on a public forum isn't going to help your career. I see you posted elsewhere that your goal was to transfer going in and you didn't plan on staying there to begin with, I think this is exactly the reason everyone on here says to not go to a school you wouldn't want to graduate from because the odds are you'll end up in a lot of debt, bitter, and angry...



This code-of-silence bullshit is the reason why the law employment market is so terrible.

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Birdman
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Re: Thomas Jefferson School of Law

Postby Birdman » Tue Jun 15, 2010 9:54 pm

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Last edited by Birdman on Sun Mar 04, 2012 7:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

subprimeJD
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Re: Thomas Jefferson School of Law

Postby subprimeJD » Wed Jun 16, 2010 12:44 am

Mr. Birdman:

I dont have a legal career, and am afraid that I will never have a legal career alongside thousands of other TTT grads. My gf works at a call center as a manager. The company put an add for salespeople. Three attorneys applied for the sales position. Because the owner of the company is my friend, I asked him to interview one of the attorneys that was from the class of 2005. When he asked her why she was applying for a sales position as an attorney, she replied that she was never able to obtain full time legal employment. At the time she was doing a few appearances a month for other attorneys. Of course she didnt get the salesjob as she was "overqualified".

I will leave you with this: 13 months since graduation and im still unemployed. Were I employed in the legal field, making a decent wage after all the hard work, time and money invested, I would be on this forum telling you guys how I got my job, and how others in my graduating class were faring. Unfortunately, many TJSL 2009 grads are suffering just like me. This is the truth. Consider it a great service I am providing you all by giving you this very important first hand information. Unlike you no TJSL grad gave me such a warning. You have now been put on actual notice.

Below are some great blogs that are fighting the great battle against the law school scam.

Subprimejd.blogspot.com
http://jdunderdog.blogspot.com/
http://butidideverythingrightorsoithought.blogspot.com/
http://temporaryattorney.blogspot.com/
http://T14 Paradise.blogspot.com/
--LinkRemoved--
--LinkRemoved--

Peace

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Birdman
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Re: Thomas Jefferson School of Law

Postby Birdman » Wed Jun 16, 2010 8:01 pm

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Last edited by Birdman on Sun Mar 04, 2012 7:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Nicholasnickynic
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Re: Thomas Jefferson School of Law

Postby Nicholasnickynic » Thu Jun 17, 2010 10:25 am

Birdman wrote:It seems like you're really pissed, and you probably have every right to be. But I would keep in mind that practicing lawyers do visit this site, the reputation of a school can mean a lot when starting out to get a job and trashing the place who's name is on the degree you're trying to get a job with won't do you or your classmates any favors. Now, the employers may already have their minds made up about the school. But a lot may not, especially those who have never heard of the school. TLS threads tend to come up pretty frequently in google searches, would you want posts like yours to be the first things someone reads about your school when they're deciding to hire you? Probably not. In any event, I'm sorry things have been shitty for you since graduation, but if you read other threads on here there are even T14 grads in situations just like yours. I'm not saying you should come on here and lie and paint a rosy picture but being as candid as you are on a public forum isn't going to help your career. I see you posted elsewhere that your goal was to transfer going in and you didn't plan on staying there to begin with, I think this is exactly the reason everyone on here says to not go to a school you wouldn't want to graduate from because the odds are you'll end up in a lot of debt, bitter, and angry...



So yeah the fact that they have never heard of a school already means you chances are shot

subprimeJD
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Re: Thomas Jefferson School of Law

Postby subprimeJD » Thu Jun 17, 2010 3:14 pm

Birdman:


Response to your question: here is a first hand lesson in law. The term "recently" is probably being applied vague and ambiguously. Did the list specifically state when these externships happened? Because I wouldnt be surprised that they took the last 5 yrs of classes worth of externships and put them on the list. Also, I worked for the solos because i couldnt get a internship anywhere else. Not that I had a problem with the solos, they were cool guys, I worked the hours that I wanted and got great hands on experience. Other students were writing letters and filing court docs while I was writing crazy motions, such as MSJ's JOTP's, Mo to Compel, propounding and responding to discovery, attended settlement conferences, mediations, arbitrations, and even helped write a few trial briefs. I learned how to evict people, defend asset forfeiture claims, the entire personal injury process from beginning to end, and did some biz law. What amazed me was the fact that NOT ONE FUCKING law firm considered any of my experience based on 2 factors: (1) TJSL isnt prestigious enough and (2) they wanted someone with "firm" experience. Despite the fact that I was and am still doing the same work that other associates are doing at other midlaw firms, its the prestige factor that kills me. I wish it wasnt how things are friend but thats how it is. There is too much talent flying around there.

A great example: me and 9 other applicants (09 grads mind you) apply for position with ABC, LLP. ABC has 9 lawyers and is seeking new associate. Were all entry level more or less. 4 applicants are Tier 4 grads, 3 are tier 3 grads, and the other three are tier 2 grads. Even though I have a bit more experience that the other applicants, the firm will pick one of the two tier 2 applicants. They reason to themselves: this subprime guy looks pretty good, and he wont need as much training as the others. However, these two applicants went to pepperdine, drake, chapman, whatever. They are going to pick them over me/us. It just looks better for business in their minds I guess.

Do yourself a favor man. Take a hard long thought about what you want to do with your life. The entire planet is undergoing change. The US ia broke and will experience some form of sovereign default in the next 5 years. Shit is going to get fucking ugly. If you truly want to be a attorney with all your heart mind and soul, then withdraw from TJSL, retake the LSAT, break a 160 and get into at least a top 50 school.

Observe the latest comment on by blog:

I find it hard to feel bad for these students, when they knew what they were getting into. Sadly, as a July 08 bar passer (first time!) in CA from an out of state TTT, the job prospects are just as bad. I graduated top 15%, law review, publication, etc... and still have had about 4 interviews in the last two years. I have also been turned down for various highschool diploma only required jobs.

The situation here in CA is completely out of control. I'm really glad you are drawing attention to it. Hopefully, others will follow suit.


Feel free to contact me via PM and we can chat. Im there to help.

Peace

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Birdman
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Re: Thomas Jefferson School of Law

Postby Birdman » Thu Jun 17, 2010 3:45 pm

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Last edited by Birdman on Sun Mar 04, 2012 7:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

subprimeJD
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Re: Thomas Jefferson School of Law

Postby subprimeJD » Fri Jun 18, 2010 6:31 pm

California is in serious trouble birdman. Two of my family friends are currently DA's and neither of them could help me get in. They have laid off so many deputy and asistant DA's in the state and it continues to get worse. The PD's office isnt hiring and I dont think they will be for the foreseeable future. Pre-crisis TJSL could have gotten you into the PD's office but now its so tough. Also keep in mind that many tier 1 and tier 2 grads are now trying to get jobs with the DA/PD because they cant find work.

June 10, 2010 article:
Sacramento DA Jan Scully said yesterday that amid a $6.9 million budget cut for the next fiscal year her office will be laying off 50 employees. Those fired include 11 deputy district attorneys whose responsibilities include prosecuting misdemeanors.
http://www.jdjournal.com/2010/06/10/lay ... da-office/
And this:
http://www.examiner.com/x-40581-San-Mat ... le-layoffs

Some other states are doing much better than Cali is. Are you from Cali? I know this sounds entirely lame but North Dakota and South Dakota have unemployment rates of 8% and 9.7%, respectively. Nebraska is at 9.2%, Kansas at 12.1% and Iowa at 12.1%. Oklahoma is at 11.1%. (Based on the U6 measure)
http://www.bls.gov/lau/stalt.htm

Based on the U-6 measure of unemployment (the real one), California is at 21.7%!!!! These are great depression numbers. And dont be fooled by all the bullshit coming out of the gov, the wsj, bloomberg, cnn, etc. The mainstream media is in bed with big gov and wall street. Read this blast from the past from CNN MONEY where Paulson and Bernanke say "US avoiding recession in 2008". Stupid lying bastards, the global financial system fell apart a mere 7 months later lol.
http://money.cnn.com/2008/02/14/news/ec ... /index.htm

Point being, if you want to be a prosecutor then go to the states that are in better financial health. I truly worry that California will turn into a third world/first world hybrid. In many parts of the state, it looks alot like Detriot and it continues to spread. You should really consider going to another state to practice law. If your family and home are here, then we get to live mad max together lol.

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Birdman
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Re: Thomas Jefferson School of Law

Postby Birdman » Fri Jun 18, 2010 6:35 pm

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Last edited by Birdman on Sun Mar 04, 2012 7:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

subprimeJD
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Re: Thomas Jefferson School of Law

Postby subprimeJD » Sat Jun 19, 2010 12:52 pm

Attention everyone: we have a new arrival at the law school scam blogging movement.

Drummm rolllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll...

http://firsttiertoilet.blogspot.com/

Yes, we truly have tier 1 grads blogging away against the law school scam.

Late

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BigA
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Re: Thomas Jefferson School of Law

Postby BigA » Sun Jun 27, 2010 9:38 pm

Just got my LSAT score. I'm wondering if anyone can offer their opinion on what kind of scholarship I might expect to get here with a 3.06, 161? I'd appreciate it

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Mr. Matlock
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Re: Thomas Jefferson School of Law

Postby Mr. Matlock » Sun Jun 27, 2010 9:51 pm

BigA wrote:Just got my LSAT score. I'm wondering if anyone can offer their opinion on what kind of scholarship I might expect to get here with a 3.06, 161? I'd appreciate it

Go to USD.




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