St. Marys, Texas Wesleyan, or South Texas?

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Lucidity
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Re: St. Marys, Texas Wesleyan, or South Texas?

Postby Lucidity » Sun Apr 24, 2011 6:06 pm

You're arguing with yourself here. The law is the law whether you go to UT or Texas Wesleyan. In general, the quality of your legal education won't change much regardless of the school stamped on your diploma.

Texas Wesleyan isn't a "bad school" because they have poor professors or poor graduates. It's simply a mater of return on investment. Wesleyan is an expensive private school that places their graduates well bellow half a dozen other schools in the state. I won't dispute the quality of Wesleyan graduates, or the contention that Wesleyan grads can find jobs. But why the hell would you pay 30k a year to go to Wesleyan only to be overshadowed by just about every other school in Texas?

busted
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Re: St. Marys, Texas Wesleyan, or South Texas?

Postby busted » Sun Apr 24, 2011 6:23 pm

Lucidity wrote:You're arguing with yourself here. The law is the law whether you go to UT or Texas Wesleyan. In general, the quality of your legal education won't change much regardless of the school stamped on your diploma.

Texas Wesleyan isn't a "bad school" because they have poor professors or poor graduates. It's simply a mater of return on investment. Wesleyan is an expensive private school that places their graduates well bellow half a dozen other schools in the state. I won't dispute the quality of Wesleyan graduates, or the contention that Wesleyan grads can find jobs. But why the hell would you pay 30k a year to go to Wesleyan only to be overshadowed by just about every other school in Texas?


Location. Tuition is not much different than South Texas, TSU or St. Mary's, which are also all T4 schools. I plan on practicing in this area so it made a lot more sense to go to school in an area where I could network for both finding jobs and finding clients. My living expenses here are minimal; had I moved to any of the other schools that accepted me I would be eating a lot more in loans to support living expenses.

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kalvano
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Re: St. Marys, Texas Wesleyan, or South Texas?

Postby kalvano » Sun Apr 24, 2011 6:35 pm

busted wrote:
Lucidity wrote:You're arguing with yourself here. The law is the law whether you go to UT or Texas Wesleyan. In general, the quality of your legal education won't change much regardless of the school stamped on your diploma.

Texas Wesleyan isn't a "bad school" because they have poor professors or poor graduates. It's simply a mater of return on investment. Wesleyan is an expensive private school that places their graduates well bellow half a dozen other schools in the state. I won't dispute the quality of Wesleyan graduates, or the contention that Wesleyan grads can find jobs. But why the hell would you pay 30k a year to go to Wesleyan only to be overshadowed by just about every other school in Texas?


Location.



Not a very good argument for the Harvard On The Highway, given that there is another school in the immediate vicinity that places substantially better.

busted
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Re: St. Marys, Texas Wesleyan, or South Texas?

Postby busted » Sun Apr 24, 2011 6:46 pm

kalvano wrote:
busted wrote:
Lucidity wrote:You're arguing with yourself here. The law is the law whether you go to UT or Texas Wesleyan. In general, the quality of your legal education won't change much regardless of the school stamped on your diploma.

Texas Wesleyan isn't a "bad school" because they have poor professors or poor graduates. It's simply a mater of return on investment. Wesleyan is an expensive private school that places their graduates well bellow half a dozen other schools in the state. I won't dispute the quality of Wesleyan graduates, or the contention that Wesleyan grads can find jobs. But why the hell would you pay 30k a year to go to Wesleyan only to be overshadowed by just about every other school in Texas?


Location.



Not a very good argument for the Harvard On The Highway, given that there is another school in the immediate vicinity that places substantially better.


Except I started law school working full time and going to school part time. Given my particular location relative to SMU it would have been impossible to do both in light of traffic. Even if I could have done both I would have spent so much time in traffic I never could have studied. Although I left work to attend full time, it didn't make sense in my situation to transfer out to SMU. If my situation had been different and/or my employment goals were different I would have.

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kalvano
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Re: St. Marys, Texas Wesleyan, or South Texas?

Postby kalvano » Sun Apr 24, 2011 6:54 pm

Fair enough, I suppose. But that's a fairly unique situation. It's pretty rare that Wesleyan would be the appropriate answer for anyone.

Lucidity
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Re: St. Marys, Texas Wesleyan, or South Texas?

Postby Lucidity » Sun Apr 24, 2011 6:54 pm

But then you're just comparing it to the bottom feeders of the state, and it isn't even the best of the t4s. For example, stcl may be a t4 but it places much better than its t4 status would suggest, thanks to the enormous legal market of Houston.

I'm assuming you have good grades and based on the fact that you have employment for the summer, things are working out ok for you. But that doesn't change the fact that Wesleyan students are taking out 100k in loans to play second fiddle to just about everyone else in a crappy economy. Unless you have a substantial scholarship, going to a t4 in this economy is gambling with shitty odds.

busted
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Re: St. Marys, Texas Wesleyan, or South Texas?

Postby busted » Sun Apr 24, 2011 6:59 pm

Lucidity wrote:But then you're just comparing it to the bottom feeders of the state, and it isn't even the best of the t4s. For example, stcl may be a t4 but it places much better than its t4 status would suggest, thanks to the enormous legal market of Houston.

I'm assuming you have good grades and based on the fact that you have employment for the summer, things are working out ok for you. But that doesn't change the fact that Wesleyan students are taking out 100k in loans to play second fiddle to just about everyone else in a crappy economy. Unless you have a substantial scholarship, going to a t4 in this economy is gambling with shitty odds.


I agree there are lots of reasons not to go to any T4, especially if somebody is going to law school just to get paid. There are much easier ways to earn six figures -- specifically in sales roles -- without putting yourself under any debt. For that matter there are lots of reasons not to go to law school at all...

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kalvano
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Re: St. Marys, Texas Wesleyan, or South Texas?

Postby kalvano » Sun Apr 24, 2011 7:00 pm

Lucidity wrote:But then you're just comparing it to the bottom feeders of the state, and it isn't even the best of the t4s. For example, stcl may be a t4 but it places much better than its t4 status would suggest, thanks to the enormous legal market of Houston.


What's weird is that STCL does well, even with UofH right there, but Wesleyan does pretty poorly as compared to SMU. That says something to me about the school.

nouseforaname123
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Re: St. Marys, Texas Wesleyan, or South Texas?

Postby nouseforaname123 » Sun Apr 24, 2011 7:26 pm

busted wrote:
Not a very good argument for the Harvard On The Highway, given that there is another school in the immediate vicinity that places substantially better.


Except I started law school working full time and going to school part time. Given my particular location relative to SMU it would have been impossible to do both in light of traffic. Even if I could have done both I would have spent so much time in traffic I never could have studied. Although I left work to attend full time, it didn't make sense in my situation to transfer out to SMU. If my situation had been different and/or my employment goals were different I would have.[/quote]

Where is your location? There are plenty of people commuting to SMU PT while working FT from Tarrant County. Current PT students are commuting from Colleyville, Keller, and Lantana.

What are your employment goals?

Edit: Typo
Last edited by nouseforaname123 on Sun Apr 24, 2011 7:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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kalvano
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Re: St. Marys, Texas Wesleyan, or South Texas?

Postby kalvano » Sun Apr 24, 2011 7:28 pm

nouseforaname123 wrote:Current PT students are commuting frmo Lantana.



Full time students as well.

nouseforaname123
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Re: St. Marys, Texas Wesleyan, or South Texas?

Postby nouseforaname123 » Sun Apr 24, 2011 7:44 pm

busted wrote:I have come across several firms, public interest groups and government offices that express a preference for Tex Wes grads than other Texas schools. They tell me our grads are well taught, appreciate the job (even if it is because it is the only option to take) and tend to want to advance within the organization that desperately bouncing from firm to firm to try to squeeze into biglaw. So if you plan on practicing locally in DFW and you are not accepted to SMU, receive a better scholarship to Tex Wes, etc. then it does make sense to go to Tex Wes and spend your time networking. If you want to fly solo in the area it makes just as much sense to go to Tex Wes as it does SMU or any other school that will get you through the bar since you don't have to compete with others for your job.


1. Please name some of these firms, public interest groups and government offices that express a preference for Tex. Wes. grads over other schools (forgive me for being skeptical).

2. I disagree with the second part of your paragraph. The vast majority of people entering law school should be looking to maximize their future options. The average law student changes his mind about what he wants to do with his career approximately a bazillion times in the course of law school. Attending Tex Wes over some other schools in the state will all but close off certain options for a future law grad. Same goes for SMU or any other school not named Y, H, or S. Choosing to attend Tex. Wes over, say, Baylor would close the doors that Baylor might be able to open to a future grad. While there are some students who simply aren't a position to chase any available school (particularly non-trads, like myself) it is wrong to advise any 0L to choose Tex. Wes. if planning on practicing in DFW.

For example, I would tell a 0L to choose OU over Tex. Wes. Costs are roughly the same, the degree is just as competitive in DFW as Tex. Wes. and there is the added bonus of access to the OKC legal market (admittedly small). For the same cost the OU grad comes out with the roughly same DFW options as the TW grad and has more options in OKC.

kid charlemagne
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Re: St. Marys, Texas Wesleyan, or South Texas?

Postby kid charlemagne » Mon May 16, 2011 3:10 pm

Go to South Texas. It's really cheap for a private school and you have a great chance and getting a really good job in the state of Texas. It's the oldest law school in Houston and the third oldest in the state of Texas I believe. They have a pretty good alumni group. For a fourth tier school, you've got a great shot at doing well. Throw Texas Wesleyan in the dumpster....and forget about St. Mary's.

bango
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Re: St. Marys, Texas Wesleyan, or South Texas?

Postby bango » Thu May 26, 2011 4:09 pm

Just to add my two cents:

First of all, many students at Texas Wesleyan are like me, they attend because they already have a job, mortgage, and family in the area and they are not willing or able to uproot everybody and everything to go to a school like Baylor or UH, even though they may have the resume to gain acceptance to those schools.

As far as SMU goes, with two kids under the age of four, I'm not willing to make that sacrifice to make the commute. Further, the cost of SMU is significantly higher than the cost at TW, which is the second cheapest private school in the U.S. (according to TW, I've never independently verified).

Another attraction for TW is the redistribution of scholarship money after the first year to students finishing in the top 10% of their class. This gives many students an opportunity to get on scholarship who didn't take care of their academics prior to deciding to attend law school and can obviously significantly reduce the cost to those who want to work hard for it. Other schools may do this, but I'm unaware of it if they do.

I also believe that a lot of TW employment statistics are skewed because a majority of the part-time students are unable to work summer internships due to job commitments. This makes it difficult for them to land the "big firm" jobs because they never get that 2L summer auditioning for them.

I can tell you, as somebody who has been out in the big old world that some of you who put so much weight into what University a degree says rather than the person holding the degree are going to be in for a rude awakening when you get into the "real" world. That University cachet may help you land the first job out of the blocks, but in my experience that is about all it's good for. After that it's what kind of work you produce and who you know, and not necessarily in that order.

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holliebell
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Re: St. Marys, Texas Wesleyan, or South Texas?

Postby holliebell » Thu May 26, 2011 5:04 pm

In this legal market so many people are having trouble finding any jobs as lawyers. There aren't enough jobs for all the SMU grads so what makes you think the TW grads will all have jobs? You make it sound like everyone will be receiving a job upon graduation and that it's up to everyone to work hard. That's simply not the case. It's supply and demand. There isn't a lot of supply for lawyer jobs, and TW does not place anywhere near as well in the DFW market as SMU. I know you don't want class rank to matter, but it does and it would behoove you to learn that now rather than when you are 6 figures in debt and can't get a job.

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kalvano
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Re: St. Marys, Texas Wesleyan, or South Texas?

Postby kalvano » Thu May 26, 2011 11:19 pm

I'm working with people from Wesleyan right now. I can tell you that, far and away, SMU has vastly better opportunities. They were shocked at some of the stuff that appears on my Symplicty versus their career services opportunities.

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kalvano
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Re: St. Marys, Texas Wesleyan, or South Texas?

Postby kalvano » Thu May 26, 2011 11:20 pm

bango wrote:I can tell you, as somebody who has been out in the big old world that some of you who put so much weight into what University a degree says rather than the person holding the degree are going to be in for a rude awakening when you get into the "real" world. That University cachet may help you land the first job out of the blocks, but in my experience that is about all it's good for. After that it's what kind of work you produce and who you know, and not necessarily in that order.



No one here disputes that. But getting that first job is kind of important.

renee88
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Re: St. Marys, Texas Wesleyan, or South Texas?

Postby renee88 » Fri May 27, 2011 12:34 am

bango wrote:Just to add my two cents:

First of all, many students at Texas Wesleyan are like me, they attend because they already have a job, mortgage, and family in the area and they are not willing or able to uproot everybody and everything to go to a school like Baylor or UH, even though they may have the resume to gain acceptance to those schools.

As far as SMU goes, with two kids under the age of four, I'm not willing to make that sacrifice to make the commute. Further, the cost of SMU is significantly higher than the cost at TW, which is the second cheapest private school in the U.S. (according to TW, I've never independently verified).

Another attraction for TW is the redistribution of scholarship money after the first year to students finishing in the top 10% of their class. This gives many students an opportunity to get on scholarship who didn't take care of their academics prior to deciding to attend law school and can obviously significantly reduce the cost to those who want to work hard for it. Other schools may do this, but I'm unaware of it if they do.

I also believe that a lot of TW employment statistics are skewed because a majority of the part-time students are unable to work summer internships due to job commitments. This makes it difficult for them to land the "big firm" jobs because they never get that 2L summer auditioning for them.

I can tell you, as somebody who has been out in the big old world that some of you who put so much weight into what University a degree says rather than the person holding the degree are going to be in for a rude awakening when you get into the "real" world. That University cachet may help you land the first job out of the blocks, but in my experience that is about all it's good for. After that it's what kind of work you produce and who you know, and not necessarily in that order.


Although I understand the responses to his post, I really think what he's saying is important to remember. We get the details about what students are doing at graduation, or 9 months out, and what their salaries are at that point...and those things are important, to some extent. But that is such a small snapshot of post-grad life, and people really blow it out of proportion.

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TT09
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Re: St. Marys, Texas Wesleyan, or South Texas?

Postby TT09 » Fri May 27, 2011 10:17 am

kalvano wrote:
bango wrote:I can tell you, as somebody who has been out in the big old world that some of you who put so much weight into what University a degree says rather than the person holding the degree are going to be in for a rude awakening when you get into the "real" world. That University cachet may help you land the first job out of the blocks, but in my experience that is about all it's good for. After that it's what kind of work you produce and who you know, and not necessarily in that order.



No one here disputes that. But getting that first job is kind of important.


+1. Just a bit... :wink:

boxer demon
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Re: St. Marys, Texas Wesleyan, or South Texas?

Postby boxer demon » Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:58 pm

I picked STCL with cash over UofH. Mostly on the advice of UofH alums and everyone plus their mama being STCL alums in oil and gas. There's a pretty good network there.

Corporate America, ho!

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romothesavior
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Re: St. Marys, Texas Wesleyan, or South Texas?

Postby romothesavior » Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:49 pm

boxer demon wrote:I picked STCL with cash over UofH. Mostly on the advice of UofH alums and everyone plus their mama being STCL alums in oil and gas. There's a pretty good network there.

Corporate America, ho!

wut

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hookem7
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Re: St. Marys, Texas Wesleyan, or South Texas?

Postby hookem7 » Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:16 pm

I've lived in Houston my entire life and know many, many people in the oil and gas industry. First, I can tell you that well over 50% of lawyers in these fields (in-house council) are from UT (majority) or UofH. The people from STCL are the ones who got the job through connections (read: nepotism), which I believe skews their data. I'm sorry to burst anyone's bubble but unless you know some pretty high up people, STCL is not going to get you nearly as far as UT (obviously), UofH or Tulane.

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deadpanic
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Re: St. Marys, Texas Wesleyan, or South Texas?

Postby deadpanic » Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:10 pm

hookem7 wrote:I've lived in Houston my entire life and know many, many people in the oil and gas industry. First, I can tell you that well over 50% of lawyers in these fields (in-house council) are from UT (majority) or UofH. The people from STCL are the ones who got the job through connections (read: nepotism), which I believe skews their data. I'm sorry to burst anyone's bubble but unless you know some pretty high up people, STCL is not going to get you nearly as far as UT (obviously), UofH or Tulane.


This is correct.

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romothesavior
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Re: St. Marys, Texas Wesleyan, or South Texas?

Postby romothesavior » Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:27 pm

STCL = BIGENURGYLAWL




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