US NEWS Rankings 2011?

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sibley
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Re: US NEWS Rankings 2011?

Postby sibley » Tue Apr 06, 2010 12:53 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
sibley wrote:ok, whatever. the fact of the matter is some of us are very interested in seeing the new rankings. we've been very logical going through this process and won't let one possibly outlying statistic change our decision. we just want a little more knowledge before we make our final choice.


You should be more interesting in data that actually matters. Like how well there OCI went last year. Instead of a list with a methodology a dumb magazine put in place to tell us what everyone already knew.


I AM more interested in how well their OCI went, how many current students have summer gigs, etc. But I need to know everything before I make my final decision. Everything includes this year's stats.

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T14_Scholly
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Re: US NEWS Rankings 2011?

Postby T14_Scholly » Tue Apr 06, 2010 12:53 pm

sibley wrote: we just want a little more knowledge before we make our final choice.


It doesn't constitute knowledge.

td6624
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Re: US NEWS Rankings 2011?

Postby td6624 » Tue Apr 06, 2010 12:54 pm

FunkyJD wrote:
JOThompson wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
webbylu87 wrote:Does anyone have any idea what time the rankings will come out on the 15th? I have a seat deposit that needs to be postmarked on the 15th and I'd be interested in seeing how the rankings pan out before I send that in.


Why would you possibly do that?

I can see the value in that, especially when you're considering schools that have steadily slipped over the years. If the rate of decrease suddenly intensifies, I'd be justly worried (Iowa).

Which school is going to fall so far as to possibly affect your decision? And how far of a drop would influence your decision?


If GW drops 8 more spots I might worry a bit.

But in all honesty I don't know how much it would affect my decision. Probably not much unless I decide I hate DC.

Oh, also, that would pretty much cement the idea that the rankings are meaningless beyond the T14 or T18 or whatever the hell.
Last edited by td6624 on Tue Apr 06, 2010 12:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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holydonkey
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Re: US NEWS Rankings 2011?

Postby holydonkey » Tue Apr 06, 2010 12:55 pm

Meh. There is some usefulness to the rankings. For example, if you look at W&L, the school used to be ranked #19, but it's declined a few spots each year or so over the last decade and now sits at #30 or so. They just instituted a pretty unique new 3L curriculum which is largely based on externships and clinical stuff in order to get kids out in the world/jobs before the end of school. This could impact its reputational rating in a significant way either positively or negatively (also their Dean is leaving). If W&L holds steady or rises in the rankings, it may be a validation of schools trying out more professionally focused curriculum. If they drop, this is a pretty clear downward trend and even a radical change isn't going to stop it. But I do feel like this is a rare case where the ranking may actually say something about the school's direction.

JOThompson
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Re: US NEWS Rankings 2011?

Postby JOThompson » Tue Apr 06, 2010 12:55 pm

T14_Scholly wrote:
sibley wrote: we just want a little more knowledge before we make our final choice.


It doesn't constitute knowledge.

We might as well entirely do away with the rankings, I suppose. It's not like they serve as even a very rough guide for those making decisions.

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stratocophic
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Re: US NEWS Rankings 2011?

Postby stratocophic » Tue Apr 06, 2010 12:56 pm

T14_Scholly wrote:
JOThompson wrote:
T14_Scholly wrote:
webbylu87 wrote:I never said it would or would not make my decision.


There's an implication when you say you want to wait to see the rankings before mailing your deposit.

Bad inference. It could be one of a dozen factors in her decision.


Suppose the school's rank drops and he/she decides not to go there at the last minute (this is the only reason he/she could possibly want to wait to see the rankings). I'd call that "making" the decision.
Right. If it truly doesn't matter, why not send it in that morning and just look at rankings that night? None of these hypothetical dozen independent factors depend on the rankings, or else they wouldn't be independent. If they aren't independent of the rankings, the decisions is still indirectly being affected by something effectively meaningless.

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webbylu87
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Re: US NEWS Rankings 2011?

Postby webbylu87 » Tue Apr 06, 2010 12:57 pm

Point is, I can't justify to anyone why I want to do this because you're either the kind of person who wants this information or the kind that thinks it'd be stupid to find out. I don't care which kind you are. To each their own. It's not up to you to ridicule how I make my decision. I asked a simple question as to what time the rankings were released. That's all.

JOThompson
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Re: US NEWS Rankings 2011?

Postby JOThompson » Tue Apr 06, 2010 12:57 pm

holydonkey wrote:Meh. There is some usefulness to the rankings. For example, if you look at W&L, the school used to be ranked #19, but it's declined a few spots each year or so over the last decade and now sits at #30 or so. They just instituted a pretty unique new 3L curriculum which is largely based on externships and clinical stuff in order to get kids out in the world/jobs before the end of school. This could impact its reputational rating in a significant way either positively or negatively (also their Dean is leaving). If W&L holds steady or rises in the rankings, it may be a validation of schools trying out more professionally focused curriculum. If they drop, this is a pretty clear downward trend and even a radical change isn't going to stop it. But I do feel like this is a rare case where the ranking may actually say something about the school's direction.

Exactly the sort of situation where the year to year rankings could be enlightening. Again, I wouldn't solely base my decision on that, but it's an extra bit of information.

td6624
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Re: US NEWS Rankings 2011?

Postby td6624 » Tue Apr 06, 2010 12:58 pm

And I know math probably isn't too many people's strong suits here. But the rankings will be posted on midnight of April 14th/15th. There's a freaking countdown.

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T14_Scholly
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Re: US NEWS Rankings 2011?

Postby T14_Scholly » Tue Apr 06, 2010 12:58 pm

JOThompson wrote:
T14_Scholly wrote:
sibley wrote: we just want a little more knowledge before we make our final choice.


It doesn't constitute knowledge.

We might as well entirely do away with the rankings, I suppose. It's not like they serve as even a very rough guide for those making decisions.


Well, it's the year-to-year change that doesn't constitute knowledge.

09042014
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Re: US NEWS Rankings 2011?

Postby 09042014 » Tue Apr 06, 2010 12:59 pm

td6624 wrote:
FunkyJD wrote:
JOThompson wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
Why would you possibly do that?

I can see the value in that, especially when you're considering schools that have steadily slipped over the years. If the rate of decrease suddenly intensifies, I'd be justly worried (Iowa).

Which school is going to fall so far as to possibly affect your decision? And how far of a drop would influence your decision?


If GW drops 8 more spots I might worry a bit.

But in all honesty I don't know how much it would affect my decision. Probably not much unless I decide I hate DC.

Oh, also, that would pretty much cement the idea that the rankings are meaningless beyond the T14 or T18 or whatever the hell.


If GW drops 8 more spots it tells you more about USNWR than it does about GW.

Rankings don't matter inside the T14 either. Boalt still isn't T6.

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Onion
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Re: US NEWS Rankings 2011?

Postby Onion » Tue Apr 06, 2010 12:59 pm

webbylu87 wrote:Does anyone have any idea what time the rankings will come out on the 15th? I have a seat deposit that needs to be postmarked on the 15th and I'd be interested in seeing how the rankings pan out before I send that in.


Poster simply asked what time rankings came out, whats with all the hostility? Why would anyone care how another person made their decision as to what school to attend? Everyone is going to weigh different aspects of the huge decision as to what school to attend (and probably spend large amounts of capital to attend) differently.

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T14_Scholly
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Re: US NEWS Rankings 2011?

Postby T14_Scholly » Tue Apr 06, 2010 1:00 pm

holydonkey wrote:Meh. There is some usefulness to the rankings. For example, if you look at W&L, the school used to be ranked #19, but it's declined a few spots each year or so over the last decade and now sits at #30 or so. They just instituted a pretty unique new 3L curriculum which is largely based on externships and clinical stuff in order to get kids out in the world/jobs before the end of school. This could impact its reputational rating in a significant way either positively or negatively (also their Dean is leaving). If W&L holds steady or rises in the rankings, it may be a validation of schools trying out more professionally focused curriculum. If they drop, this is a pretty clear downward trend and even a radical change isn't going to stop it. But I do feel like this is a rare case where the ranking may actually say something about the school's direction.


Consider that the ranking formula disfavors small schools, and that W&L competitors have been making incremental gains by gaming the formula. Iowa, IUB, and Alabama anyone?

sibley
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Re: US NEWS Rankings 2011?

Postby sibley » Tue Apr 06, 2010 1:01 pm

T14_Scholly wrote:
holydonkey wrote:Meh. There is some usefulness to the rankings. For example, if you look at W&L, the school used to be ranked #19, but it's declined a few spots each year or so over the last decade and now sits at #30 or so. They just instituted a pretty unique new 3L curriculum which is largely based on externships and clinical stuff in order to get kids out in the world/jobs before the end of school. This could impact its reputational rating in a significant way either positively or negatively (also their Dean is leaving). If W&L holds steady or rises in the rankings, it may be a validation of schools trying out more professionally focused curriculum. If they drop, this is a pretty clear downward trend and even a radical change isn't going to stop it. But I do feel like this is a rare case where the ranking may actually say something about the school's direction.


Consider that the ranking formula disfavors small schools, and that W&L competitors have been making incremental gains by gaming the formula.


it isn't a shock that w&l is sinking. they've definitely been doing things to make themselves accessible, but it's just not that easy to participate in clinics if you have to drive over an hour to do it. etc.

td6624
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Re: US NEWS Rankings 2011?

Postby td6624 » Tue Apr 06, 2010 1:02 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
td6624 wrote:
If GW drops 8 more spots I might worry a bit.

But in all honesty I don't know how much it would affect my decision. Probably not much unless I decide I hate DC.

Oh, also, that would pretty much cement the idea that the rankings are meaningless beyond the T14 or T18 or whatever the hell.


If GW drops 8 more spots it tells you more about USNWR than it does about GW.

Rankings don't matter inside the T14 either. Boalt still isn't T6.


I just meant that certain distinctions seem valuable while others seem almost meaningless. It's probably fair to say that attending HYS is better than MVBPD. And probably fair to say that MVBPD is better than Texas/UCLA/Vandy/WUSTL. But GW and IU-B? Notre Dame and Iowa? BU and BC? W&M and W&L? DePaul and LUC? What's even the point, really?

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FunkyJD
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Re: US NEWS Rankings 2011?

Postby FunkyJD » Tue Apr 06, 2010 1:03 pm

Onion wrote:
webbylu87 wrote:Does anyone have any idea what time the rankings will come out on the 15th? I have a seat deposit that needs to be postmarked on the 15th and I'd be interested in seeing how the rankings pan out before I send that in.


Poster simply asked what time rankings came out, whats with all the hostility? Why would anyone care how another person made their decision as to what school to attend? Everyone is going to weigh different aspects of the huge decision as to what school to attend (and probably spend large amounts of capital to attend) differently.

Poster asked and provided a justification for her interest. What's wrong with questioning the justification the poster provided?

JOThompson
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Re: US NEWS Rankings 2011?

Postby JOThompson » Tue Apr 06, 2010 1:05 pm

FunkyJD wrote:
Onion wrote:
webbylu87 wrote:Does anyone have any idea what time the rankings will come out on the 15th? I have a seat deposit that needs to be postmarked on the 15th and I'd be interested in seeing how the rankings pan out before I send that in.


Poster simply asked what time rankings came out, whats with all the hostility? Why would anyone care how another person made their decision as to what school to attend? Everyone is going to weigh different aspects of the huge decision as to what school to attend (and probably spend large amounts of capital to attend) differently.

Poster asked and provided a justification for her interest. What's wrong with questioning the justification the poster provided?

The inquiry into her justification has been an excuse for needless hostility, for a couple of the posters.

Pearalegal
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Re: US NEWS Rankings 2011?

Postby Pearalegal » Tue Apr 06, 2010 1:07 pm

T14_Scholly wrote:
Pearalegal wrote:
they might have some interest in seeing if a school that has been on the rise lately continues.



No, because they're not dumb enough to think that a slight rankings increase equates to being "on the rise."


Which is not what I said. But I agree with you. Obviously.

Fixed your quotes, too, haha, so its easier to read.

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askhos
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Re: US NEWS Rankings 2011?

Postby askhos » Tue Apr 06, 2010 1:12 pm

I think Cooley is going to be number 1. I hear they've decided to install more library chairs.

09042014
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Re: US NEWS Rankings 2011?

Postby 09042014 » Tue Apr 06, 2010 1:12 pm

askhos wrote:I think Cooley is going to be number 1. I hear they've decided to install more library chairs.


That joke wasn't funny in 2006, and isn't now.

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romothesavior
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Re: US NEWS Rankings 2011?

Postby romothesavior » Tue Apr 06, 2010 1:18 pm

JOThompson wrote:
T14_Scholly wrote:
sibley wrote: we just want a little more knowledge before we make our final choice.


It doesn't constitute knowledge.

We might as well entirely do away with the rankings, I suppose. It's not like they serve as even a very rough guide for those making decisions.


Sorry, but this is flat out false. Many, many firms and companies only hire within certain "tiers." I spoke with an attorney who said they only hire within the top 20, which means going to WUSTL or going to UIUC would have an impact on me, if I wanted to work there down the road.

Also, while I agree that the fluctuations in the rankings from year to year are virtually meaningless, trends can be established that help students with their decision. The employment numbers, degree of portability, and overall "prestige" also seem to drop off significantly at certain points. I'm not saying the rankings are the end-all and be-all, but they certainly do serve as a rough guide.

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Campagnolo
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Re: US NEWS Rankings 2011?

Postby Campagnolo » Tue Apr 06, 2010 1:19 pm

I'm surprised no one has tipped NYU to overtake Columbia.

Think of all the quality faculty acquisitions they've made this year.

Pearalegal
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Re: US NEWS Rankings 2011?

Postby Pearalegal » Tue Apr 06, 2010 1:20 pm

To clarify, heres what I mean:

Boston University-

2000: 32
2010: 20

Emory-

2000: 26
2010: 20

Washington and Lee-

2000: 20
2010: 30

The rankings over the past 10 years in the T25 have mostly stayed consistent, but there have been some big changes. You think hiring committees don't pay attention to that? As flawed as any rankings system is, there is usually a reason for such changes. And my associates and partners do discuss know the rankings, though not as obsessively as us.

Obviously a fall or rise for a year or two isn't going to be a decision maker (or it shouldn't be)--but wondering if W&L will return to its 25th ranking it had in 2009 after falling to 30 in 2010? I mean, its not crazy to be interested in seeing that. Rankings do matter, its what the legal world is driven by.

I'll completely agree that making a decision based off of small flucations in law schools is completely stupid, but thats not what the poster was saying AT ALL.

JOThompson
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Re: US NEWS Rankings 2011?

Postby JOThompson » Tue Apr 06, 2010 1:22 pm

romothesavior wrote:
JOThompson wrote:
T14_Scholly wrote:
sibley wrote: we just want a little more knowledge before we make our final choice.


It doesn't constitute knowledge.

We might as well entirely do away with the rankings, I suppose. It's not like they serve as even a very rough guide for those making decisions.


Sorry, but this is flat out false. Many, many firms and companies only hire within certain "tiers." I spoke with an attorney who said they only hire within the top 20, which means going to WUSTL or going to UIUC would have an impact on me, if I wanted to work there down the road.

Also, while I agree that the fluctuations in the rankings from year to year are virtually meaningless, trends can be established that help students with their decision. The employment numbers, degree of portability, and overall "prestige" also seem to drop off significantly at certain points. I'm not saying the rankings are the end-all and be-all, but they certainly do serve as a rough guide.

I was being sarcastic in the quoted post. Overall, I agree with you. Rankings aren't anything to sacrifice your firstborn for, but they do offer some enlightenment. While the minor year to year changes may not be hugely important, they can establish a general trend. A large drop one year is certainly something to pay attention to, even if we conclude that USNWR's methodology is faulty IMO.
Last edited by JOThompson on Tue Apr 06, 2010 1:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

09042014
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Re: US NEWS Rankings 2011?

Postby 09042014 » Tue Apr 06, 2010 1:22 pm

Pearalegal wrote:To clarify, heres what I mean:

Boston University-

2000: 32
2010: 20

Emory-

2000: 26
2010: 20

Washington and Lee-

2000: 20
2010: 30

The rankings over the past 10 years in the T25 have mostly stayed consistent, but there have been some big changes. You think hiring committees don't pay attention to that?


No, I really don't. Do you have hiring stats to back your claim up?




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