Fordham, Cardozo, and NY Schools other than NYU or Columbia

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Jacobt
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Fordham, Cardozo, and NY Schools other than NYU or Columbia

Postby Jacobt » Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:14 am

Does anyone here think that Cardozo is a special case? especially for IP? Fordham seems connected with the private firms in NYC and all but Cardozo seems more like a place interested in studying the law, involving the humanities (law and lit, philosophy) in the experience, the idea of public service, etc... They got a Supreme Court clerkship a bit ago; they are obviously taking aim at Fordham's ranking by spending a ton of money on scholarships and they just hired their new dean from Fordham a year ago which might also help with getting as connected as Fordham is with the firms; I think they have jumped about 10 places in the ranking in the last 10 years; they get a lot of great professors coming through there even if these people are just visiting or often using Cardozo as a stepping stone to more prestigious schools, the Cardozo campus is nicer too. Does Fordham really offer that much more than Cardozo beyond 20 or so places in the US News rankings? I am not convinced it is a better place to study than Cardozo despite these rankings, and I am not entirely convinced a degree from Fordham opens more doors or that, if it does, the difference will be as big in 3 years. Brooklyn is obviously making strides to improve as well. Fordham sometimes seems to be resting on the fact that is as close to Columbia or NYU as you might be able to get based on tradition and ranking.

blsingindisguise
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Re: Fordham, Cardozo, and NY Schools other than NYU or Columbia

Postby blsingindisguise » Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:12 am

No.

Money being equal, Fordham is a better place to study than Cardozo because its US News ranking is much higher, its reputation is better, its placement is better, etc. It doesn't matter whether Cardozo is "more into the humanities" or has a #4 ranked law and literature program or whatever. Virtually any top professor would rather teach at Fordham than Cardozo (again, money being equal) and rather publish in Fordham's Law Review than Cardozo's Law Review. Again, that's with money being equal - the difference probably isn't worth a huge amount of debt, but it's real.

The improvement story is a Cardozo admissions line - yes, it's nice that they're ranked where they are after being open 34 years, but they are not going to come anywhere near Fordham's rank unless either something disastrous happens to Fordham (and all the law schools in between) or Cardozo suddenly gets a gigantic endowment that allows it to outspend everyone else in the law school arms race.

Jacobt
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Re: Fordham, Cardozo, and NY Schools other than NYU or Columbia

Postby Jacobt » Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:08 am

blsingindisguise wrote:No.

Money being equal, Fordham is a better place to study than Cardozo because its US News ranking is much higher, its reputation is better, its placement is better, etc. It doesn't matter whether Cardozo is "more into the humanities" or has a #4 ranked law and literature program or whatever. Virtually any top professor would rather teach at Fordham than Cardozo (again, money being equal) and rather publish in Fordham's Law Review than Cardozo's Law Review. Again, that's with money being equal - the difference probably isn't worth a huge amount of debt, but it's real.

The improvement story is a Cardozo admissions line - yes, it's nice that they're ranked where they are after being open 34 years, but they are not going to come anywhere near Fordham's rank unless either something disastrous happens to Fordham (and all the law schools in between) or Cardozo suddenly gets a gigantic endowment that allows it to outspend everyone else in the law school arms race.


okay, I am more than willing to consider this but what are you basing it on? did you conduct interviews of professors? did you talk to the people who do the ranking at US News? and from what I can tell Cardozo does have a pretty significant endowment, no?

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Re: Fordham, Cardozo, and NY Schools other than NYU or Columbia

Postby blsingindisguise » Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:18 am

If you look at the USNews rankings from the last decade, Cardozo basically just bounces up and down in between 50 and 60. Some years you would think it was "on the rise", others you would think it was "in decline" but it just floats around the same area.

Every school I applied to claimed it was "on the rise" - the thing is the USNews rankings are an arms race and every school is doing everything it can to maintain its position or gain. Most schools tend to stay just about where they are as a result.

Fordham job placement stats are still better than Cardozo, they're still more likely to produce a SCOTUS clerk, they're still more likely to produce academics, etc. Yes I have seen numbers and this is all common knowledge. I would take Cardozo with a substantial scholarship over Fordham at full price, but to choose Cardozo at sticker over Fordham at sticker would be psychopathic.

jitsrenzo
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Re: Fordham, Cardozo, and NY Schools other than NYU or Columbia

Postby jitsrenzo » Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:21 am

Dude, you seem pretty convinced you're right, so why are you even asking for a second opinion? I mean, what are you basing your claims on - Cardozo's admissions brochure?

All I know is there's a big disparity in placement stats even for a difference in US News rankings of 5 spots, let alone a difference of 20. Seriously, as Abovethelaw would say, CHECK YOU FIRM PLACEMENT STATS

Jacobt wrote:okay, I am more than willing to consider this but what are you basing it on? did you conduct interviews of professors? did you talk to the people who do the ranking at US News? and from what I can tell Cardozo does have a pretty significant endowment, no?

Jacobt
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Re: Fordham, Cardozo, and NY Schools other than NYU or Columbia

Postby Jacobt » Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:40 am

jitsrenzo wrote:Dude, you seem pretty convinced you're right, so why are you even asking for a second opinion? I mean, what are you basing your claims on - Cardozo's admissions brochure?

All I know is there's a big disparity in placement stats even for a difference in US News rankings of 5 spots, let alone a difference of 20. Seriously, as Abovethelaw would say, CHECK YOU FIRM PLACEMENT STATS


Based on visits to the school, people I know who have gone to Cardozo. I don't look at the brochures too much and I also try not to base things too much on US News rankings. I am not trying to be aggressively confrontational. I would not have posted this if I had made up my mind but I do find myself leaning toward Cardozo. However a lot of people say things similar to what you are saying. I am just curious if there are others that have an impression similar to mine. So far I have not encountered many. Thanks for the tip on abovethelaw. I will check that out.

blsingindisguise
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Re: Fordham, Cardozo, and NY Schools other than NYU or Columbia

Postby blsingindisguise » Mon Mar 22, 2010 12:01 pm

"Visits" are no better than brochures - you're just getting the marketed view of the school. And people who are current students there are invested in believing the hype, drinking the koolaid, etc.

Keep in mind that this is a professional school, which makes it very different from the process for choosing a college -- or at least it should. You have to put your job prospects first and ignore all the meaningless BS about "the #6 ranked entertainment law program" or whatever. Law and literature is a highly specialized field primarily relevant to academia, and Cardozo just doesn't produce academics at a significant rate -- you pretty much need top 6 to have a reasonable shot at academia.

Also keep in mind that your job search starts ONE YEAR after you start law school. Do you really think Cardozo is going to overtake Fordham in a year? In three years? If it could happen at all it would take decades.

You SHOULD place stock in USNews rankings, because they are a good - though imperfect - rough approximation of reputation and placement. I mean the #20 school might not always be a better choice than the #30 school if the second one is the top school in its market and the first one is competing with better ranked schools in its market. But a much higher ranked school in the same market (NYC) is per se a better choice, money being equal.

Jacobt
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Re: Fordham, Cardozo, and NY Schools other than NYU or Columbia

Postby Jacobt » Mon Mar 22, 2010 12:41 pm

Yeah from graduates the opinion seems to be a pretty even split between there not being a difference and choosing Fordham for the name, But I have been told the name does not really carry a ton of weight outside of NY. But along these lines, does everyone think there is a significant difference between GW and Fordham in terms of career prospects for people who want to be in NY?

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evilgenius
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Re: Fordham, Cardozo, and NY Schools other than NYU or Columbia

Postby evilgenius » Mon Mar 22, 2010 12:51 pm

Jacobt wrote:Yeah from graduates the opinion seems to be a pretty even split between there not being a difference and choosing Fordham for the name, But I have been told the name does not really carry a ton of weight outside of NY. But along these lines, does everyone think there is a significant difference between GW and Fordham in terms of career prospects for people who want to be in NY?


Yes there's a big difference. Aside from the T14, Fordham offers the best career prospects for those that want to practice in NYC. I'd even argue that they offer better prospects than some lower T14's (especially Duke & Northwestern) in NYC.

Jacobt
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Re: Fordham, Cardozo, and NY Schools other than NYU or Columbia

Postby Jacobt » Mon Mar 22, 2010 1:15 pm

evilgenius wrote:Yes there's a big difference. Aside from the T14, Fordham offers the best career prospects for those that want to practice in NYC. I'd even argue that they offer better prospects than some lower T14's (especially Duke & Northwestern) in NYC.


What do you think about Fordham prospects outside of NY, like DC or the West Coast? as relates to GW? or at all for that matter?

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evilgenius
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Re: Fordham, Cardozo, and NY Schools other than NYU or Columbia

Postby evilgenius » Mon Mar 22, 2010 1:23 pm

In DC, GW is definitely stronger than Fordham. I'm not certain about the West Coast, but neither GW nor Fordham are national. If I had to take a guess I'd say GW has a little more name recognition than Fordham. However, Fordham is an up-and-coming school so perhaps in the next few years, especially if they are able to crack T25 their reputation will increase as will the employment prospects of their graduates.

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Fordham, Cardozo, and NY Schools other than NYU or Columbia

Postby OperaSoprano » Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:15 pm

I saw this earlier, and finally have a chance to respond. I don't know Blsingindisguise, but this person knows what he or she is talking about. This, in particular:
blsingindisguise wrote:Keep in mind that this is a professional school, which makes it very different from the process for choosing a college -- or at least it should. You have to put your job prospects first


I applied and was admitted to Cardozo with a fairly generous scholarship, which I declined. I don't think the school is a bad place to learn the law, nor can I fault it for the strength of its academics. I have a visiting prof from Cardozo right now, and I quite like him. However, law school is not merely an exercise in academic enrichment. I chose Fordham because I was happy with the school's career statistics-- in particular, the response and salary reporting rates.

Here are Fordham's response rates, with salary breakdown: http://law.fordham.edu/career-planning/17281.htm

98.93% reported employment status. 96.13% were employed within 9 months, and 93.02% reported salary information. 50.85% of the class reported employment at firms of 101+ attorneys. Not all of these people were making market, but the breakdown is listed, and the salary numbers come from the 95.38% of the attorneys in private practice who reported salary data.

Here are Cardozo's: http://www.cardozo.yu.edu/MemberContent ... ntid=10310

96.89% reported employment status. 91.5% were employed within 9 months. Doing the math, 55.58% of 63.97%, or 35.7% of the class reported employment at firms of 101+ attorneys. Again, not all were making market, but this is enough of a difference that is should be reviewed. Note that at both schools, these are percentages of those who responded. Only 80.81% of employed Cardozo grads reported salary data, so the numbers on the website are not as accurate.

If we assume that most of the non responding grads were unemployed, likely around 10 or 11% of Cardozo grads didn't find jobs within 9 months of graduation, and that number is probably in the 5% ballpark for Fordham.

Historically speaking (reviewing NLJ records from 2005), Fordham placed about one third of that year's class in NLJ250 firms, while Cardozo placed about 12%.

On to a few QoL issues: Cardozo does have a gorgeous building. Fordham has a new law school building in the works, which should be complete some time in 2012 or 2013. I wish I could see it, but I know it will bring attention (and hopefully donations) to the school. Cardozo also has a larger endowment than Fordham, which means the school can offer attractive scholarships in an attempt to buy students with higher numbers. Fordham cannot afford to buy students, and the majority of my classmates are here because they really want to be here. I am all for schools giving scholarships, and I wish my school had more to give, but it should be noted that nearly all Cardozo's scholarships come with GPA stipulations. Mine required me to be in the top 40% if I wanted to keep the money. According to an adcomm there, around 70% of admits get scholarship offers, and all but a few do come with stipulations. In practical terms, that means that a sizable number of people will lose all or part of their scholarships every year.

Fordham doesn't have a ton to give, but no one has ever lost their scholarship here for failure to stay in the top 40%. I know this is standard practice at many T2 (and lower T1) schools, but my school does not play games like that, and it never would. Scholarship stipulations are reprehensible in practice, and schools should not promise more aid than they can afford to maintain, especially since students are enticed away from schools with better placement.

To sum up, I don't think Cardozo is a bad school, and someone receiving a large scholarship that is guaranteed for all three years ought to consider it. He or she should do so with full knowledge and ability to compare career placement. All schools massage statistics, but a bit of digging will turn up numbers that can reasonably be compared.

(Edit: someone can check my math to be absolutely certain. I'm not Rayiner, so I can't do this stuff in my head. :lol: )

Jacobt
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Re: Fordham, Cardozo, and NY Schools other than NYU or Columbia

Postby Jacobt » Tue Mar 23, 2010 7:20 am

So you guys pretty much have me convinced but I do think it is interesting that no one tried to say that Fordham is just as interdisciplinary as Cardozo or does just as good a job bringing humanities into the education, or that Fordham is flat out a better education. The Fordham Forum on Law, Culture, and Society is pretty cool and the law school has seems to have made a significant commitment to international human rights... but I guess I am to believe all this stuff is just trade dressing. Career placement is important as is money but when you consider how many lawyers are unhappy in their jobs and that we are using this job placement as a rubric for the school's value then I think that has to give one pause. But maybe Fordham grads are happier in their jobs and that is why they have such a great alumni network. In any case, I really appreciate you guys offering your opinions and the info, best of luck to you.

blsingindisguise
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Re: Fordham, Cardozo, and NY Schools other than NYU or Columbia

Postby blsingindisguise » Tue Mar 23, 2010 8:24 am

Jacobt wrote:So you guys pretty much have me convinced but I do think it is interesting that no one tried to say that Fordham is just as interdisciplinary as Cardozo or does just as good a job bringing humanities into the education, or that Fordham is flat out a better education. The Fordham Forum on Law, Culture, and Society is pretty cool and the law school has seems to have made a significant commitment to international human rights... but I guess I am to believe all this stuff is just trade dressing. Career placement is important as is money but when you consider how many lawyers are unhappy in their jobs and that we are using this job placement as a rubric for the school's value then I think that has to give one pause. But maybe Fordham grads are happier in their jobs and that is why they have such a great alumni network. In any case, I really appreciate you guys offering your opinions and the info, best of luck to you.


I understand what you're saying here, but law school just doesn't work the way undergrad does - it's not as much a time to explore things. Your whole first year is going to be the same load of courses almost anywhere (Torts, Crim, Property, Con Law, Contracts, Civil Procedure), and those courses are generally taught in a standard way in order that you learn the foundation for law practice. The same can be said for a large percentage of upper level classes that most people take (Corporations, Tax, Evidence, Crim Pro, etc.) Things like seminars are often icing because you're trying to cram in all this material that you expect you might need in whatever kind of practice you want to do and/or for the bar exam. Studying law "for its own sake" is nice but highly secondary - it's a little like studying anatomy "for its own sake" in medical school - you're trying to train yourself to know how to diagnose diseases and make the right incisions in surgery and you don't want to get too carried away with fanciful ideas. This is not to say it's never intellectually interesting of course.

In other words if you take one or two interdisciplinary courses in law school that's great and it will enhance your understanding. But if you're focusing on them you're probably missing out on crucial subject areas that you will need familiarity with. So I don't see it as a major reason to choose (unless you're looking at academia and choosing between top top schools). And for the record, Fordham's faculty is pretty much guaranteed to be high level because it's a highly ranked school and law academia is extremely competitive. Money being equal, most professors will choose Fordham over Cardozo because it's higher profile and will draw higher level students on average. I know the whole numbers game can be frustrating, but that's just the way the law school world works.

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Re: Fordham, Cardozo, and NY Schools other than NYU or Columbia

Postby justdoit2410 » Tue Mar 23, 2010 8:34 am

I am curious about these two schools as well. You say all things being equal one should go to Fordham over Cardozo. I was offered full tuition no strings at Cardozo. I was also accepted to Fordham PT but I would have to pay sticker. In this situation should Cardozo win out, or is Fordham still the better choice? Sorry for the ramble.

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Re: Fordham, Cardozo, and NY Schools other than NYU or Columbia

Postby zapper » Tue Mar 23, 2010 8:49 am

I just wanted to join the conversation to let the OP know that I was/am harboring the same feelings/questions about Cardozo vs. Fordham. Cardozo does sell itself as sort of a progressive, interdisciplinary think-tank, which I personally find very attractive. But I think the responders to this thread are probably right - I especially like the comparison to anatomy/medicine - and I am realizing that I am naive to think that studying the law is tantamount to reading fascinating law review articles that I select based on my interest level in the subject, or diving into the Hart/Dworkin debate for the rest of my career. I mean, I would like to have that academic and intellectual freedom but I am sure I could engage in all of these discussions whether at a Cardozo or at a Fordham. There are interdisciplinary/legal-theoretical/legal-philosophical course offerings at Fordham, probably enough to keep somebody occupied between all of the required material, clinics, interviewing, etc.

So the decision might come down to money. A free Cardozo education, to those who are lucky enough to get the offer, might make it worth "dabbling in the law," since one might not be forced to pursue it if it's just not their thing. But also I feel like going to Fordham is not going to stop anybody from pursuing the study of law (while they're there) for the academic/intellectual sake of it.

What do people think about Cardozo 100% scholarship vs. Fordham 50% scholarship?

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hannah87
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Re: Fordham, Cardozo, and NY Schools other than NYU or Columbia

Postby hannah87 » Tue Mar 23, 2010 8:55 am

zapper wrote:I just wanted to join the conversation to let the OP know that I was/am harboring the same feelings/questions about Cardozo vs. Fordham. Cardozo does sell itself as sort of a progressive, interdisciplinary think-tank, which I personally find very attractive. But I think the responders to this thread are probably right - I especially like the comparison to anatomy/medicine - and I am realizing that I am naive to think that studying the law is tantamount to reading fascinating law review articles that I select based on my interest level in the subject, or diving into the Hart/Dworkin debate for the rest of my career. I mean, I would like to have that academic and intellectual freedom but I am sure I could engage in all of these discussions whether at a Cardozo or at a Fordham. There are interdisciplinary/legal-theoretical/legal-philosophical course offerings at Fordham, probably enough to keep somebody occupied between all of the required material, clinics, interviewing, etc.

So the decision might come down to money. A free Cardozo education, to those who are lucky enough to get the offer, might make it worth "dabbling in the law," since one might not be forced to pursue it if it's just not their thing. But also I feel like going to Fordham is not going to stop anybody from pursuing the study of law (while they're there) for the academic/intellectual sake of it.

What do people think about Cardozo 100% scholarship vs. Fordham 50% scholarship?


i would like opinions too...i have the no-stipulations 100% cardozo offer and 75k at Fordham. i'm pretty sure i want BigLaw, so it has to be Fordham, right? right??

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Re: Fordham, Cardozo, and NY Schools other than NYU or Columbia

Postby starsong » Tue Mar 23, 2010 9:09 am

hannah87 wrote:i would like opinions too...i have the no-stipulations 100% cardozo offer and 75k at Fordham. i'm pretty sure i want BigLaw, so it has to be Fordham, right? right??

Of course, Hannah! Don't sell yourself short, that 40% difference in tuition is totally irrelevant w/a biglaw salary.

But you're going to NYU anyway, so stop worrying :-)

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Re: Fordham, Cardozo, and NY Schools other than NYU or Columbia

Postby blsingindisguise » Tue Mar 23, 2010 9:22 am

Tough call. If you're really sure you want biglaw, go Fordham which at least gives you a reasonable shot at it.

If you're not so sure, no debt is a good feeling to have in an uncertain job market.

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hannah87
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Re: Fordham, Cardozo, and NY Schools other than NYU or Columbia

Postby hannah87 » Tue Mar 23, 2010 9:22 am

starsong wrote:
hannah87 wrote:i would like opinions too...i have the no-stipulations 100% cardozo offer and 75k at Fordham. i'm pretty sure i want BigLaw, so it has to be Fordham, right? right??

Of course, Hannah! Don't sell yourself short, that 40% difference in tuition is totally irrelevant w/a biglaw salary.

But you're going to NYU anyway, so stop worrying :-)


thanks for the vote of confidence, star!!! :mrgreen: fordham (or nyu...) it is!

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hannah87
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Re: Fordham, Cardozo, and NY Schools other than NYU or Columbia

Postby hannah87 » Tue Mar 23, 2010 9:23 am

blsingindisguise wrote:Tough call. If you're really sure you want biglaw, go Fordham which at least gives you a reasonable shot at it.

If you're not so sure, no debt is a good feeling to have in an uncertain job market.


thanks. it is a tough call. the debt-free-ness is sooo appealing. but am like 95% sure i want biglaw.

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Re: Fordham, Cardozo, and NY Schools other than NYU or Columbia

Postby blsingindisguise » Tue Mar 23, 2010 9:31 am

To be fair, you'll still need to work your ass off to get it even from Fordham these days, but you'll have a realistic chance. You still may want a backup plan.

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Re: Fordham, Cardozo, and NY Schools other than NYU or Columbia

Postby jitsrenzo » Tue Mar 23, 2010 9:33 am

NYU for sure.

And then Fordham.
Last edited by jitsrenzo on Fri Apr 02, 2010 2:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

Jacobt
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Re: Fordham, Cardozo, and NY Schools other than NYU or Columbia

Postby Jacobt » Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:37 am

all great points, and you should totally go to NYU if you get in, of course!

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hannah87
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Re: Fordham, Cardozo, and NY Schools other than NYU or Columbia

Postby hannah87 » Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:51 am

Jacobt wrote:all great points, and you should totally go to NYU if you get in, of course!


of course. but that's one freaking HUGE "if." :D




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