Elon 2013 Forum

[rockstar4488]

I guess I didn't really see your angle on it. I agree, Elon is easily one of the top 50 schools in North Carolina.

Seriously though, the few people respecting Elon are the ones confusing it with Emory.

what are u talking about elon university is highly respected as an undergrad university
btw the admission rep i spoke with this week said that they ar eprojecting this incomming class to have an average lsat of 157 thats not bad for a new law school

[Little Jerk]

I don't understand why some of the people on this blog don't see that Elon Law is a great school. Some have at least agreed that it has potential. Potential for what? I personally don't see how it can get much better. Because it is a new school, they're admissions aren't as selective as many other great law schools. This fact just shows how great of a law school Elon really is. Look at what they're doing with students who might not have the LSAT scores and GPAs to be a "pick of the litter." The school is turning these students into dangerous forces in the legal community. Can Yale, Duke, or Wake Forest prepare such a student to have the same level of professionalism, leadership and legal skills? Here's what Sandra Day O'Connor had to say in regards to Elon:
“You are really fortunate, I think, to begin your introduction to the legal profession at an innovative place like Elon…It is quite clear that Elon Law is already a force with which to be reckoned.”

If you're looking into law schools in North Carolina, I suggest paying closer attention to what legal professionals (like O'Connor) are saying about Elon Law as opposed to some jack-ass on a blog who doesn't know what they're talking about.

Elon University School of Law is doing everything right. No one can present a winning argument against that!

[Little Jerk]

An average tells you nothing. That just means they gave a lot of full rides to people with LSAT scores in the 160s. The median is what is reported to US News and gives you a better picture of what the incoming class profile is like. I'd bet that median will be lower than 157.[/quote]

Dead, an average tells you more than a median. A school can have a median LSAT of 157 and their range of scores can be 157-180. And the schools not accept a single score lower than 157. An average shows an observer a more precise figure of how well the student body performed on the LSAT as a whole. I'm much more interested in seeing the LSAT average than I am the median.

[Little Jerk]

I think it is pretty common knowledge that the undergraduate program at Elon is not competitive. I would be concerned that the undergrad reputation could taint the potential marketability of a JD earned. Obviously the dichotomy of a competitive law school / non competitive undergrad does exist in places, but it seems much more frequent for the two to be on similar levels.

Elon's undergraduate program is one of the most competitive in the state. I would say only Davidson, Duke, and UNC-CH are more competitive. Wake Forest is about the same. I typically don't like to insult bloggers, but you are either a complete idiot or you actually do know better but insist on making a false claim. Perhaps out of jealousy?

[actorlaw]

I don't understand why some of the people on this blog don't see that Elon Law is a great school. Some have at least agreed that it has potential. Potential for what? I personally don't see how it can get much better. Because it is a new school, they're admissions aren't as selective as many other great law schools. This fact just shows how great of a law school Elon really is. Look at what they're doing with students who might not have the LSAT scores and GPAs to be a "pick of the litter." The school is turning these students into dangerous forces in the legal community. Can Yale, Duke, or Wake Forest prepare such a student to have the same level of professionalism, leadership and legal skills? Here's what Sandra Day O'Connor had to say in regards to Elon:
“You are really fortunate, I think, to begin your introduction to the legal profession at an innovative place like Elon…It is quite clear that Elon Law is already a force with which to be reckoned.”

If you're looking into law schools in North Carolina, I suggest paying closer attention to what legal professionals (like O'Connor) are saying about Elon Law as opposed to some jack-ass on a blog who doesn't know what they're talking about.

Elon University School of Law is doing everything right. No one can present a winning argument against that!

Until you provide facts of O'Connor actually saying this, you fall under the category of some jack-ass on a blog relentlessly trying to defend his law school that hasn't received full accreditation yet.

Did O'Connor say this during her dedication speech at Elon?

According the the US Code Regarding Ethics, Title 5A, active Supreme Court Justices are not allowed to be be paid to deliver key note addresses. However, it is stated that retired Supreme Court Justices will often command six figure fees for a single speaking engagement.

If a school was paying you a six figure fee to speak, you would probably throw in a compliment or two wouldn't you Little Jerk?

I can appreciate the love you have for your school, but basing a Law School's reputation entirely off of something a retired Supreme Court Justice may or may not have said doesn't prove anything. Any school with a decent sized endowment can bring in people to speak.

There is a difference between excitement for a school's potential success and outrageous claims that it already stands out as a "dangerous force" in the legal community...

Empires aren't build overnight and neither are successful law schools.

[MrMcAllister]

[quote="actorlaw
You have just used the words possibility, could, and assume in a paragraph while trying to argue that Elon being comparable to Wake Forest is a fact and not an opinion...

If you want facts look at placement, LSAT, GPA, and other irrefutable material that clearly proves that Elon has their work cut out for them before they become a respectable law school like Wake Forest.

I think it is probably an exciting time to be at a school like Elon while it is building their program. However, I would be reluctant to atend Elon having to compete with JD's from Duke, UNC, Wake Forest, Campbell, and NC Central...

At best, Elon is the 6th best law school in the state... And the NC legal market isn't that big.[/quote]

Would a comparable ranking not be included in that "irrefutable material" that you mentioned? I'm not arguing that Elon is already comparable to WF - I'm simply arguing that Elon could conceivably achieve a comparable ranking. This is not an opinion; it is a logically reasonable possibility that Elon can be ranked comparably to WF as a fact. I'm not saying Elon already is comparable (in the sense of being closely ranked). I've already looked at the "irrefutable material." That's why I'm NOT saying that Elon is very similar to WF (as the ranking doesn't even exist), though I am of the opinion that I could be sufficiently prepared to be an effective attorney through an education at either institution.

It appears that you are delving into a complex argument in which you may not intend to engage. You conclude that Elon is the 6th best law school in NC simply because it is the most-recently established? Because it has yet to be ranked? What defines a "good" law school? A long-established institution automatically makes it better? The success of a JD from Duke, UNC, WF, etc. simply from attending those institutions is short-term. The long-term success is measured by how that lawyer makes use of the tools offered by those institutions. I don't believe that the tools Elon offers are inferior to these other institutions, and I intend to make the best of those tools no matter where I go.

[MrMcAllister]

woot! gogo actor law!
I can't wait to hear mrmccalister's (multi-paragraph) response to actorlaws assertion.

IMO best thread ever. MrMccalister, you are my hero.

'Preciate it. Get your headphones ready...?

[MrMcAllister]

There is a difference between excitement for a school's potential success and outrageous claims that it already stands out as a "dangerous force" in the legal community...

With Elon's lack of an alumni network, its graduates are forced to infringe upon the networks of Duke, WF, UNC, Campbell, etc.

[Nicholasnickynic]

Sooo much good stuff... where to begin?

Ill have to start out with this juicy tidbit:

The school [elon] is turning these students into dangerous forces in the legal community. Can Yale, Duke, or Wake Forest prepare such a student to have the same level of professionalism, leadership and legal skills?

ahh... speachless...

Also, as predicted in my earlier post MrMcAllister had a multi paragraph response. I don't know if you realize, but when people see posts that long, they usually skip over them. Try to be brief. Wait, its already apparent you can't do that.

I'll leave you all with my favorite quote of the day,

I'm not arguing that Elon is already comparable to WF - I'm simply arguing that Elon could conceivably achieve a comparable ranking. This is not an opinion; it is a logically reasonable possibility that Elon can be ranked comparably to WF as a fact. I'm not saying Elon already is comparable (in the sense of being closely ranked). I've already looked at the "irrefutable material." That's why I'm NOT saying that Elon is very similar to WF (as the ranking doesn't even exist).

For the love of god... please learn how to get to the point.

ahhh... good day in best thread ever.

[Nicholasnickynic]

With Elon's lack of an alumni network, its graduates are forced to TRY to infringe upon the networks of Duke, WF, UNC, Campbell, etc.

Fixed that for ya.

[Nicholasnickynic]

Elon's undergraduate program is one of the most competitive in the state. I would say only Davidson, Duke, and UNC-CH are more competitive. Wake Forest is about the same. I

Rankings for Undergrad based on USNWR

National Universities:

Duke: #10
UNC: #28
Wake Forest: #28
N.C. State: #88

Elon: Not on list (no t3 or t4 appearance)
------------------------

Liberal Arts College:
Elon: Not on list (no t3 or t4 appearance)

---------------------------------

Undergrad Acceptance Rate
20%ers
Duke: 22%
Davidson: 25.7%

30%ers
UNC-CH: 34%
Shaw: 36.5%
Wake Forest: 38.4%

40%ers
Elon: 42.3%
UNC School of arts: 43.4%
Bennett College: 45%
Brevard College:46.7%
Barton: 47.6%
John C. Smith U: 49.3%

Which one of these groups is full of colleges that people outside of NC have never heard of?
Which one is elon in?
1+1=?

[MrMcAllister]

Elon's undergraduate program is one of the most competitive in the state. I would say only Davidson, Duke, and UNC-CH are more competitive. Wake Forest is about the same. I

Rankings for Undergrad based on USNWR

National Universities:

Duke: #10
UNC: #28
Wake Forest: #28
N.C. State: #88

Elon: Not on list (no t3 or t4 appearance)
------------------------

Liberal Arts College:
Elon: Not on list (no t3 or t4 appearance)

---------------------------------

Undergrad Acceptance Rate
20%ers
Duke: 22%
Davidson: 25.7%

30%ers
UNC-CH: 34%
Shaw: 36.5%
Wake Forest: 38.4%

40%ers
Elon: 42.3%
UNC School of arts: 43.4%
Bennett College: 45%
Brevard College:46.7%
Barton: 47.6%
John C. Smith U: 49.3%

Which one of these groups is full of colleges that people outside of NC have never heard of?
Which one is elon in?
1+1=?

You can separate the percentages, but make sure to notice that Elon is closer to Wake Forest in percentage of UAR than Wake is to UNC. A whopping, totally non-comparable 3.9%? What's really funny about that is that you use this to somehow distinguish the qualities of the schools, yet Shaw has a lower percentage than WF.

Elon is not ranked under the National Universities because it does not offer doctoral degrees. It is ranked 2nd as a T1 southern master's-level university by USNWR.

[MrMcAllister]

With Elon's lack of an alumni network, its graduates are forced to TRY to infringe upon the networks of Duke, WF, UNC, Campbell, etc.

Fixed that for ya.

If they want gainful employment in NC, they are forced to infringe upon the networks - with or without trying to do so. Your alteration shows that Elon law students try to infringe upon the other networks, which operates on the assumption that Elon law students are actually even considering the other networks. What they really are trying to do is gain employment, and by gaining employment they infringe upon the networks of other schools with or without trying to intentionally infringe upon those networks. Infringing upon the network is a by-product of trying to gain employment. If you wanted to pick out something for the sake of picking out something, you should have attacked my usage of "forced." The graduates aren't necessarily forced to seek employment, thus they are not necessarily forced to infringe upon the other networks by seeking employment.

[rockstar4488]

Elon is not ranked under the National Universities because it does not offer doctoral degrees. It is ranked 2nd as a T1 southern master's-level university by USNWR.

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandrevie ... h-rankings

A list that truly reads like the special olympics of college rankings. Notable mentions on the list, aside from the aforementioned Elon include at #17, Converse College, where I'm assuming they invented the sneaker. I'll go as far as to say that if you tell me you've so much as even HEARD of all the schools on the top page of that list, you're a damn liar. (Or someone with a vested interest in... uhh... Southern Master's-level universities.)

Forbes releases a more comprehensive list of college rankings which allows us to see where Elon rests amongst all its peer institutions. It comes in at #396 nationally. Statewide, it is only exceeded in the rankings by UNC-CH, WFU, Duke, Salem, Davidson, Warren Wilson College, UNC Wilmington, UNC Asheville, Guilford, Appalachian State, and High Point. I sincerely apologize for my earlier comment when I called Elon a top 50 in NC school when it is in fact a top 20 in NC school.

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2008/94/opi ... _Rank.html

Edit: After comprehensive research on Converse College, which may or may not have included reading one line of the wikipedia page, I have learned that Converse College is a liberal arts womens college. Therefore, I think it is likely that they in fact did not invent the sneaker, but rather, gossiping.

[Nicholasnickynic]

Elon is not ranked under the National Universities because it does not offer doctoral degrees. It is ranked 2nd as a T1 southern master's-level university by USNWR.

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandrevie ... h-rankings

A list that truly reads like the special olympics of college rankings. Notable mentions on the list, aside from the aforementioned Elon include at #17, Converse College, where I'm assuming they invented the sneaker. I'll go as far as to say that if you tell me you've so much as even HEARD of all the schools on the top page of that list, you're a damn liar. (Or someone with a vested interest in... uhh... Southern Master's-level universities.)

Forbes releases a more comprehensive list of college rankings which allows us to see where Elon rests amongst all its peer institutions. It comes in at #396 nationally. Statewide, it is only exceeded in the rankings by UNC-CH, WFU, Duke, Salem, Davidson, Warren Wilson College, UNC Wilmington, UNC Asheville, Guilford, Appalachian State, and High Point. I sincerely apologize for my earlier comment when I called Elon a top 50 in NC school when it is in fact a top 20 in NC school.

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2008/94/opi ... _Rank.html

Edit: After comprehensive research on Converse College, which may or may not have included reading one line of the wikipedia page, I have learned that Converse College is a liberal arts womens college. Therefore, I think it is likely that they in fact did not invent the sneaker, but rather, gossiping.

+1 to edit

[Nicholasnickynic]

With Elon's lack of an alumni network, its graduates are forced to TRY to infringe upon the networks of Duke, WF, UNC, Campbell, etc.

Fixed that for ya.

If they want gainful employment in NC, they are forced to infringe upon the networks - with or without trying to do so. Your alteration shows that Elon law students try to infringe upon the other networks, which operates on the assumption that Elon law students are actually even considering the other networks. What they really are trying to do is gain employment, and by gaining employment they infringe upon the networks of other schools with or without trying to intentionally infringe upon those networks. Infringing upon the network is a by-product of trying to gain employment. If you wanted to pick out something for the sake of picking out something, you should have attacked my usage of "forced." The graduates aren't necessarily forced to seek employment, thus they are not necessarily forced to infringe upon the other networks by seeking employment.

I feel like you try to prove your points by using as many words as possible.


If Elon Grads want a job, they are forced to "Try" to infringe upon other NC schools networks
Try is the operative word not because the students are counscious of their infringment,

But because saying, "If they want gainful employment in NC, they are forced to infringe upon the networks"
assumes that they will be successful in their infringment.

All I was pointing out is that they will most likely not be successfull in thier infringment. Wether they are aware or not that they are trying to infringe on others networks is irrelevant.

And theres nothing really wrong with your use of the word forced- i assume that all graduates will want a job

I do really enjoy that you were so intent on proving me wrong that you attacked parts of your own post that made sense.

If we could just get you to attack the many parts of your posts that don't make sense, we'd all be golden.

[MrMcAllister]

If Elon Grads want a job, they are forced to "Try" to infringe upon other NC schools networks. Try is the operative word not because the students are counscious of their infringment, but because saying, "If they want gainful employment in NC, they are forced to infringe upon the networks" assumes that they will be successful in their infringment.

It assumes that they will act upon their wants and that infringement is necessary to achieve gainful employment (as a lawyer). Even if they fail at gaining employment from an employer typically sold to a particular network, those grads can infringe upon the networks by competing in the interview process with other schools' alumni, effecting the salaries offered to lawyers with an increased supply in the market (through self-employment), by gaining clients, etc. Every lawyer admitted to practice in NC can produce an effect on those networks, and I wouldnt necessarily call that infringement successful unless it equated to employment. I didn't say that Elon law students will be employed by infringing upon other networks - just that they would be forced to infringe by gaining employment. In your quote of my quote above, "want" is the actual operative word. One could want employment without trying to seek it; that's why your alteration is worthless - because using "want" in the colloquial sense encompasses an action (trying). Even as you admit that you assume all graduates will want a job, I am assuming that those who want a job will act on their want (otherwise, they must not want it too badly, huh?). Sure, the statement assumes that those who want employment will act on their desires. Acting on desires does what? Produces an intention to achieve employment (the desire). Acting on an intention does what? Encompasses trying. That doesn't assume success - it assumes action. It only assumes success if every instance of infringement is a successful form of infringement.

Wether they are aware or not that they are trying to infringe on others networks is irrelevant.

If I am going to try to do something, I am making an attempt to do something with the INTENT to accomplish that goal. Intent requires an awareness of a goal. Trying to infringe upon a network implies an intention to do so. How do I try to do something without an intent to do that which I am trying to do?

And theres nothing really wrong with your use of the word forced- i assume that all graduates will want a job

You did what...assumed? Exactly. I used "forced" colloquially, which is fine (I guess). The grads aren't forced to act upon their desires to seek employment. They just aren't. I brought that up to provide a more legitimate option for your nitpicking. Try just didn't cut it.

[actorlaw]

Let me preface by saying I respect Elon as a solid university that offers a good education.

With that said, I have had the Elon kool aid forced down my throat the past few years and it amazes me how the institution encourages its students to promote the school's self-proclaimed prestige everywhere they go.

I am acquainted with over fifty Elon students from various undergraduate majors, and each student claims their program is the best in the state and rivals any program in the country. This is no exaggeration and I fear the law school encourages their students to adopt a similar attitude.

Geographically, the school is situated right between Wake Forest and Duke/UNC. Perhaps the school finds it necessary to adopt this elitist attitude and boast about its programs in hopes of luring students away from these premiere institutions, only to offer an education at an over-priced university that pours its money into making the campus a botanical garden.

Overall, Elon tries so desperately to convince the North Carolina community that it is a premiere institution. Elon assures its students upon arrival that they are so privileged to be at such a premiere school that shares a throne with Duke, UNC, and Wake Forest.

The point of my rant is that while Wake Forest, Duke, and UNC students can sometimes be douchey, I have yet to meet any that find it necessary to boast about the quality of their institution. After all, a premiere university does not need to convince anyone of its reputation. A premiere university can stand on its own without administrators and students singing its praises. Perhaps Elon can soon accept its place as a solid NC private school that produces well-educated students, instead of trying to desperately convince the entire country that they are ivy league caliber.

[MrMcAllister]

@actorlaw,

I get what you are saying. But this entire discussion has been about the potential for Elon to grow - to develop - into a school of a higher caliber. This hasn't been about how Elon is superior or comparable to those schools; it's been about its ability to become comparable.

Ever heard the phrase, "dress for the job you want?" Even if Elon isn't there yet (it's law school is certainly simply in the budding process), it appears, at least to me, as if it is taking the necessary steps to institute itself among higher ranks in the years to come - even at the undergraduate level.

This issue has been beat to death. Let's talk about it again in 10 years. Then again 10 years after that.

[rockstar4488]

I think other than creating a dogmatic following, Elon is most certainly not dressing the part. The fact remains that the best model we have to base the law school growth on is the institutional model used by the undergraduate program. As such, I don't have any problem drawing the conclusion that the law school will mirror the Elon undergrad experience in being both over priced and non competitive.

[Little Jerk]

Elon's undergraduate program is one of the most competitive in the state. I would say only Davidson, Duke, and UNC-CH are more competitive. Wake Forest is about the same. I

Rankings for Undergrad based on USNWR

National Universities:

Duke: #10
UNC: #28
Wake Forest: #28
N.C. State: #88

Elon: Not on list (no t3 or t4 appearance)
------------------------

Liberal Arts College:
Elon: Not on list (no t3 or t4 appearance)

---------------------------------

Undergrad Acceptance Rate
20%ers
Duke: 22%
Davidson: 25.7%

30%ers
UNC-CH: 34%
Shaw: 36.5%
Wake Forest: 38.4%

40%ers
Elon: 42.3%
UNC School of arts: 43.4%
Bennett College: 45%
Brevard College:46.7%
Barton: 47.6%
John C. Smith U: 49.3%

Which one of these groups is full of colleges that people outside of NC have never heard of?
Which one is elon in?
1+1=?

Are you saying people outside of North Carolina have never heard of Elon? 75% of their students come from out of state. Are you trying to debunk my claim that Elon's undergraduate program is one of the most competitive in the state? Acceptance rates aren't the best indicator. You have to look at what kind of students are applying to these schools. USNWR does indicate that Elon is a "more selective" school. I think average gpa and sat scores are a better indicator of competitiveness. The average high school gpa for incoming freshman at Elon is
about a 4.0. The average SAT score for critical reading and math is 1225. This is in line with UNC, Wake, NC State, etc. Elon is the second ranked masters university in the south. Some jack-ass on this blog pointed out that the other schools on that list were unrecognizable. I did happen to recognize a few popular NC schools on that same list: Campbell ranked #41, Western Carolina #30, App State #5, UNC-Wilmington #12, NC Central and UNC-Pembroke both unranked in the 3rd tier. These are all popular schools in North Carolina that almost everyone in the state has heard of. Elon is higher ranked than all of these schools and recruits more competitive students as well. I stand by my claim that Elon's undergraduate program is one of the most competitive in the state.

[actorlaw]

^^^^^^^^^^^

This site is still top-law-schools right?
I know they remodeled the site in the past day...

For a second there I thought I was on top-undergraduate-schools-that-can't-garner-respect-without-it's-students-singing-it's-praise-and-defending-its-honor.com

[Little Jerk]

^^^^^^^^^
I did not go to Elon. The reason their undergraduate program was brought up was because some idiot expressed concerns that Elon's horrible undergraduate reputation would hurt the future success of Elon's Law school. I was simply correcting a false claim someone made in a previous post. Did you really not see that?

[Nicholasnickynic]

<-- From Central Va.

Had not heard of Elon until I popped in on this thread.

I've known about wake/duke/unc since I can remember.

[rockstar4488]

^^^^^^^^^
I did not go to Elon. The reason their undergraduate program was brought up was because some idiot expressed concerns that Elon's horrible undergraduate reputation would hurt the future success of Elon's Law school. I was simply correcting a false claim someone made in a previous post. Did you really not see that?

I am said idiot. But since we're reducing ourselves to ad hominem attacks, you sir, are both little, and a jerk. Therefore you are wrong.

But look, I'm not pulling the fact that Elon is uncompetitive out of my rear. USNWR doesn't rank Elon against major schools, so we don't really have any way of knowing what #2 on the Southern Masters' Rankings means as far as comparing it to the normal college rankings. I argue that based on its company on that rankings list... not very much. But Forbes.com does not differentiate between what is a "National University" and what is a "Southern Masters University". We can see there that Elon is #396 nationally and #12 in the state of NC. And yes, I very much believe that the lack of competitiveness of the undergrad program will hold down the reputation of the law school.