YP at Michigan is DISGUSTING

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tomhobbes
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Re: YP at Michigan is DISGUSTING

Postby tomhobbes » Fri Feb 26, 2010 9:39 pm

notanumber wrote:I have numbers >75%, didn't write a "why Michigan" essay, applied late, and was admitted.

There's something else about your application that spooked them. . .


Did you write any of the supplemental essays at all? Or do you have some kind of crazy extracurricular thing on your resume? I was waitlisted too, and I don't think there was anything particularly bad or boring about my application.

miamiman
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Re: YP at Michigan is DISGUSTING

Postby miamiman » Fri Feb 26, 2010 9:40 pm

Veritas wrote::roll:

it's dramatized because pretty much all the WLs came out today. If this happened over the period of the cycle there would no be so many people up in arms.

1) get over yourself
2) take the effort you're putting into being angry online and focus it into a LOCI


Veritas,where u goin in the fall

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Veritas
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Re: YP at Michigan is DISGUSTING

Postby Veritas » Fri Feb 26, 2010 9:41 pm

miamiman wrote:
Veritas wrote::roll:

it's dramatized because pretty much all the WLs came out today. If this happened over the period of the cycle there would no be so many people up in arms.

1) get over yourself
2) take the effort you're putting into being angry online and focus it into a LOCI


Veritas,where u goin in the fall

I dunno yet, still waiting on a bunch of schools.

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scribelaw
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Re: YP at Michigan is DISGUSTING

Postby scribelaw » Fri Feb 26, 2010 9:43 pm

Helmholtz wrote:
sundevil77 wrote:I know OP came off as a self-entitled prick (especially with the name), but he states a valid point. I consider a TLSer like GeePee to be a pretty darn good applicant. He's got acceptances to many higher ranked schools so there is clearly nothing glaringly wrong with the application. He also wrote a Why Michigan and claims to have showed a lot of sincere interest in attending. He also doesn't come off as a douche in his posts. Nevertheless, he got a waitlist at Michigan. There's no question they're engaging in some type of YP.


So then what accounts for them taking people who have numbers like 176/3.95 and 177/3.8, who were both accepted on LSN? Do you think they just indiscriminately YP random people for the hell of it?


Just because they don't YP everyone doesn't mean they don't YP...Those two might be Darrow candidates...

Taking applicants between 3.6 and 3.8, YP is unmistakable.

With 172 or 173 LSAT: 14 admits and 11 waitlists (most admits applied early).

With a 169 or 170 LSAT: 27 admits and 2 waitlists.

Flanker1067
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Re: YP at Michigan is DISGUSTING

Postby Flanker1067 » Fri Feb 26, 2010 9:45 pm

scribelaw wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:
sundevil77 wrote:I know OP came off as a self-entitled prick (especially with the name), but he states a valid point. I consider a TLSer like GeePee to be a pretty darn good applicant. He's got acceptances to many higher ranked schools so there is clearly nothing glaringly wrong with the application. He also wrote a Why Michigan and claims to have showed a lot of sincere interest in attending. He also doesn't come off as a douche in his posts. Nevertheless, he got a waitlist at Michigan. There's no question they're engaging in some type of YP.


So then what accounts for them taking people who have numbers like 176/3.95 and 177/3.8, who were both accepted on LSN? Do you think they just indiscriminately YP random people for the hell of it?


Just because they don't YP everyone doesn't mean they don't YP...Those two might be Darrow candidates...

Taking applicants between 3.6 and 3.8, YP is unmistakable.

With 172 or 173 LSAT: 14 admits and 11 waitlists (most admits applied early).

With a 169 or 170 LSAT: 27 admits and 2 waitlists.


Who do you think you are bringing cold hard facts into this? This is TLS!

Add: you make a good point.
Last edited by Flanker1067 on Fri Feb 26, 2010 9:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Helmholtz
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Re: YP at Michigan is DISGUSTING

Postby Helmholtz » Fri Feb 26, 2010 9:45 pm

Flanker1067 wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:
sundevil77 wrote:I know OP came off as a self-entitled prick (especially with the name), but he states a valid point. I consider a TLSer like GeePee to be a pretty darn good applicant. He's got acceptances to many higher ranked schools so there is clearly nothing glaringly wrong with the application. He also wrote a Why Michigan and claims to have showed a lot of sincere interest in attending. He also doesn't come off as a douche in his posts. Nevertheless, he got a waitlist at Michigan. There's no question they're engaging in some type of YP.


So then what accounts for them taking people who have numbers like 176/3.95 and 177/3.8, who were both accepted on LSN? Do you think they just indiscriminately YP random people for the hell of it?



I don't completely disagree with your sentiments, but if a candidate like that says "I will definatley come to Mich if I get in", or demonstrates a need to be in Mich (SO or something), then they wouldn't need to consider YP'ing. That could explain those admits, but again, I am not saying this is the case.


Eh, it's possible, but I also think schools try to put together a diverse class of people and if they don't think you're going to bring anything unique to Michigan, I could see them pull a WL or rejection. I have sat through basically two complete admissions cycles. I feel like I know so much more than I did the first time through and it seems to me like the biggest misconceptions that get floated around re: applications are that softs/UG quality really don't matter much and schools game the system through tactics like YP a lot more than they actually do.

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Helmholtz
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Re: YP at Michigan is DISGUSTING

Postby Helmholtz » Fri Feb 26, 2010 9:49 pm

scribelaw wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:
sundevil77 wrote:I know OP came off as a self-entitled prick (especially with the name), but he states a valid point. I consider a TLSer like GeePee to be a pretty darn good applicant. He's got acceptances to many higher ranked schools so there is clearly nothing glaringly wrong with the application. He also wrote a Why Michigan and claims to have showed a lot of sincere interest in attending. He also doesn't come off as a douche in his posts. Nevertheless, he got a waitlist at Michigan. There's no question they're engaging in some type of YP.


So then what accounts for them taking people who have numbers like 176/3.95 and 177/3.8, who were both accepted on LSN? Do you think they just indiscriminately YP random people for the hell of it?


Just because they don't YP everyone doesn't mean they don't YP...Those two might be Darrow candidates...

Taking applicants between 3.6 and 3.8, YP is unmistakable.

With 172 or 173 LSAT: 14 admits and 11 waitlists (most admits applied early).

With a 169 or 170 LSAT: 27 admits and 2 waitlists.


Actually of the people I named, one of them got no scholarship money and the other one only got $67,500. From the Michigan website:

If my numbers are above your medians and you don’t admit me, doesn't that mean that you're "yield protecting"? I.e., you didn't admit me because you're sure I wouldn't come?

Such questions deeply underestimate the confidence of this Admissions Office, which tends to assume that everyone who is admitted to Michigan Law will want to come to Michigan Law. Okay, okay, we know – not everyone comes, and people who are admitted to lots of other top law schools are the ones least likely to come. But if this yield-protection allegation were true, then we’d be implementing our nefarious plans very poorly; every year, the school with which we have the highest overlap for admitted candidates is Harvard. We never deny someone because we think, by virtue of their LSAT and GPA, that they will be unlikely to accept our offer of admission. Most people with high numbers will be offered admission – but it is also true that people with very strong numbers will often not be admitted. Like all top law schools, we simply receive far more applications from prospective students with high numbers than we could possibly admit – and we look at many, many factors apart from the numbers. No matter how strong a candidate you are numerically, it is worth putting effort into your application to ensure that you are portraying yourself as well as possible.

emphasis my own

notanumber
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Re: YP at Michigan is DISGUSTING

Postby notanumber » Fri Feb 26, 2010 9:51 pm

tomhobbes wrote:
notanumber wrote:I have numbers >75%, didn't write a "why Michigan" essay, applied late, and was admitted.

There's something else about your application that spooked them. . .


Did you write any of the supplemental essays at all? Or do you have some kind of crazy extracurricular thing on your resume? I was waitlisted too, and I don't think there was anything particularly bad or boring about my application.


Nope. I'm probably a pretty "interesting" candidate but I just sent them my normal application. I also have no connection to Michigan or the midwest. Who knows why dean Z makes the decisions she does, but I'm inclined to believe that they don't reject candidates simply because of their numbers.

ViP
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Re: YP at Michigan is DISGUSTING

Postby ViP » Fri Feb 26, 2010 9:51 pm

Flanker1067 wrote:
ViP wrote:YP exists for a reason.

If you really wanted to go there, you wouldn't be withdrawing.

I guess Michigan made the right decision with the YP, eh?



Ignore all these tools that call you entitled. They are just argumentative for the sake of being that way. In reality though, schools do this because they think you will not attend. One of two things happened to you. Either they really didn't think your app was that great, but unlikely if you have gotten in everywhere else, or they didn't believe your "why mich?" essay was sincere enough. Rather then withdraw, you should write a strong LOCI saying what you just told us, see if anyone else gives you money, use that as leverage against them and work your way to where you want to be. Might work, might not, but don't not consider a school because they waitlisted you instead of admitting you. Or do, I don't care in the end, I just feel if you wanted to go then that's what you could do.

Edited: because I felt like making small additions.


1) I didn't call him "entitled."

2) You said the EXACT same thing I said, only in many, many more words.

I guess that makes us both tools?

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Helmholtz
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Re: YP at Michigan is DISGUSTING

Postby Helmholtz » Fri Feb 26, 2010 9:54 pm

Also, I think LSN is really of limited value when looking at so small a number compared to the entire application pool.

Flanker1067
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Re: YP at Michigan is DISGUSTING

Postby Flanker1067 » Fri Feb 26, 2010 9:55 pm

ViP wrote:
Flanker1067 wrote:
ViP wrote:YP exists for a reason.

If you really wanted to go there, you wouldn't be withdrawing.

I guess Michigan made the right decision with the YP, eh?



Ignore all these tools that call you entitled. They are just argumentative for the sake of being that way. In reality though, schools do this because they think you will not attend. One of two things happened to you. Either they really didn't think your app was that great, but unlikely if you have gotten in everywhere else, or they didn't believe your "why mich?" essay was sincere enough. Rather then withdraw, you should write a strong LOCI saying what you just told us, see if anyone else gives you money, use that as leverage against them and work your way to where you want to be. Might work, might not, but don't not consider a school because they waitlisted you instead of admitting you. Or do, I don't care in the end, I just feel if you wanted to go then that's what you could do.

Edited: because I felt like making small additions.


1) I didn't call him "entitled."

2) You said the EXACT same thing I said, only in many, many more words.

I guess that makes us both tools?


Sorry I wasn't clear, I was quoting you because you offered the right answer. My post was targeted at OP, not you, and yes I did say the same thing (in more words) for that reason.

ViP
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Re: YP at Michigan is DISGUSTING

Postby ViP » Fri Feb 26, 2010 9:58 pm

Flanker1067 wrote:
ViP wrote:
Flanker1067 wrote:
ViP wrote:YP exists for a reason.

If you really wanted to go there, you wouldn't be withdrawing.

I guess Michigan made the right decision with the YP, eh?



Ignore all these tools that call you entitled. They are just argumentative for the sake of being that way. In reality though, schools do this because they think you will not attend. One of two things happened to you. Either they really didn't think your app was that great, but unlikely if you have gotten in everywhere else, or they didn't believe your "why mich?" essay was sincere enough. Rather then withdraw, you should write a strong LOCI saying what you just told us, see if anyone else gives you money, use that as leverage against them and work your way to where you want to be. Might work, might not, but don't not consider a school because they waitlisted you instead of admitting you. Or do, I don't care in the end, I just feel if you wanted to go then that's what you could do.

Edited: because I felt like making small additions.


1) I didn't call him "entitled."

2) You said the EXACT same thing I said, only in many, many more words.

I guess that makes us both tools?


Sorry I wasn't clear, I was quoting you because you offered the right answer. My post was targeted at OP, not you, and yes I did say the same thing (in more words) for that reason.


Ahh, yes. Very unclear. Thanks for the clarification. You're right with your analysis.

bluepepsi
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Re: YP at Michigan is DISGUSTING

Postby bluepepsi » Fri Feb 26, 2010 9:59 pm

From Dean Z's interview on TLS: "Another way we sometimes find out is we’ll deny people because we don’t think they’ll be good fits and then those people write us outraged angry emails, which is a good sign that our gut instinct was right."

*shrug*

Waitlist may be different from denial, but either way, it brought out the ugly side here.

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scribelaw
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Re: YP at Michigan is DISGUSTING

Postby scribelaw » Fri Feb 26, 2010 9:59 pm

Helmholtz wrote:Also, I think LSN is really of limited value when looking at so small a number compared to the entire application pool.


Ok.

I think it's pretty clear when you take the same GPA, and the group with the higher LSAT (172-173) has a 56 percent acceptance rate and the group with the lower LSAT (169-170) has a 93 percent acceptance rate. LSN is a limited sample, for sure, but it's still useful and I can't think of any reason there would be such an enormous statiscal difference aside from YP.

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Shlonster
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Re: YP at Michigan is DISGUSTING

Postby Shlonster » Fri Feb 26, 2010 10:01 pm

I'm not sure I'd call it DISGUSTING.

gobucks8284
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Re: YP at Michigan is DISGUSTING

Postby gobucks8284 » Fri Feb 26, 2010 10:08 pm

That their biggest overlap is with Harvard is completely irrelevant. Harvard Law admits nearly 1,000 students. Michigan may very well admit every single borderline HLS admit without YPing a single student, and by itself, that might make their overlap with Harvard high. Speculative, yes--but not completely unwarranted. Note that one potential overlap, TH, was rejected. Also note that his numbers are too high for UM Law.

Does the OP have a douchey nickname? Yes. Does that mean his case had nothing to do with YP? Absolutely not. The data is indisputable: Michigan YPed this year, and it is likely incredibly widespread for 172+ LSAT scores. That doesn't mean the strategy is wrong. On my desk are three withdraw letters that have yet to go out because I don't have stamps; one of them is addressed to Michigan. I applied only because a good friend used a Darrow to negotiate more money with Chicago, and suggested I do the same. They were right to YP me, because I wouldn't have gone there. But please don't pretend YP doesn't happen. It does.

And to the author who said he was happy that the douchey OP wouldn't find himself in Ann Arbor, I have this:
Everyone who has ever gone, is going, or will ever go to any of Michigan's schools is an evil human being. Go Bucks. Michigan sucks. Help is on the way.

(The last part will make sense to many people, especially sports fans. So don't call me an asshole--it's all in good fun.)

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Helmholtz
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Re: YP at Michigan is DISGUSTING

Postby Helmholtz » Fri Feb 26, 2010 10:09 pm

scribelaw wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:Also, I think LSN is really of limited value when looking at so small a number compared to the entire application pool.


Ok.

I think it's pretty clear when you take the same GPA, and the group with the higher LSAT (172-173) has a 56 percent acceptance rate and the group with the lower LSAT (169-170) has a 93 percent acceptance rate. LSN is a limited sample, for sure, but it's still useful and I can't think of any reason there would be such an enormous statiscal difference aside from YP.



1) I'm guessing there were a lot more ED applicants in the 169-170 group than there were in the 172-173 group, did you account for that?
2) I still think it's a small sample. Michigan is probably going to have about 6500 applications this year. 900 or so are on LSN, who knows how many people fudge their numbers, it's just not that statistically sound IMO, especially when comparing even 20 people with one LSAT score with 20 other people with a different LSAT score, when there could be 300 or so other people out there whose numbers fit the profiles you're comparing. Not only is LSN self-selecting, it's completely self reported. I don't know, I perhaps don't trust it as much as most others.

cubswin
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Re: YP at Michigan is DISGUSTING

Postby cubswin » Fri Feb 26, 2010 10:09 pm

Shlonster wrote:I'm not sure I'd call it DISGUSTING.


+1

TigerBeer
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Re: YP at Michigan is DISGUSTING

Postby TigerBeer » Fri Feb 26, 2010 10:10 pm

Things that make me feel good:
1) OP getting rejected
2) OP being outraged about it

:lol: thanks for making my day

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scribelaw
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Re: YP at Michigan is DISGUSTING

Postby scribelaw » Fri Feb 26, 2010 10:13 pm

Helmholtz wrote:
scribelaw wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:Also, I think LSN is really of limited value when looking at so small a number compared to the entire application pool.


Ok.

I think it's pretty clear when you take the same GPA, and the group with the higher LSAT (172-173) has a 56 percent acceptance rate and the group with the lower LSAT (169-170) has a 93 percent acceptance rate. LSN is a limited sample, for sure, but it's still useful and I can't think of any reason there would be such an enormous statiscal difference aside from YP.



1) I'm guessing there were a lot more ED applicants in the 169-170 group than there were in the 172-173 group, did you account for that?
2) I still think it's a small sample. Michigan is probably going to have about 6500 applications this year. 900 or so are on LSN, who knows how many people fudge their numbers, it's just not that statistically sound IMO, especially when comparing even 20 people with one LSAT score with 20 other people with a different LSAT score, when there could be 300 or so other people out there whose numbers fit the profiles you're comparing.


Strangely, I don't think one person in my sample from the 169-170 did ED. Here is a link:

http://michigan.lawschoolnumbers.com/applicants/0910/?lsat2=170&lsatR=true&lsat1=169&lgpa1=3.60&lgpa2=3.80&status=3,4,5,6,7,8&type=jd

On the other hand, one admit in the 172-173 sample did ED.

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faceman9000
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Re: YP at Michigan is DISGUSTING

Postby faceman9000 » Fri Feb 26, 2010 10:18 pm

Grutter v. Bollinger

edit: Nevermind, just googled Grutter v. Bollinger and found out Grutter only had a 161 LSAT...It is still slightly relevant in that it seems Grutter may be the only person in the history of UM applicants to have a more grandiose sense of fallacious entitlement than OP.

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Veritas
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Re: YP at Michigan is DISGUSTING

Postby Veritas » Fri Feb 26, 2010 10:23 pm

scribelaw wrote:Strangely, I don't think one person in my sample from the 169-170 did ED. Here is a link:

http://michigan.lawschoolnumbers.com/applicants/0910/?lsat2=170&lsatR=true&lsat1=169&lgpa1=3.60&lgpa2=3.80&status=3,4,5,6,7,8&type=jd

On the other hand, one admit in the 172-173 sample did ED.

you inspired me to look up my sample, :lol: I wish you didn't

http://michigan.lawschoolnumbers.com/ap ... ,8&type=jd

I'm not in that group there, but it's looking bleak.

tamlyric
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Re: YP at Michigan is DISGUSTING

Postby tamlyric » Fri Feb 26, 2010 10:25 pm

Veritas wrote:
scribelaw wrote:Strangely, I don't think one person in my sample from the 169-170 did ED. Here is a link:

http://michigan.lawschoolnumbers.com/applicants/0910/?lsat2=170&lsatR=true&lsat1=169&lgpa1=3.60&lgpa2=3.80&status=3,4,5,6,7,8&type=jd

On the other hand, one admit in the 172-173 sample did ED.

you inspired me to look up my sample, :lol: I wish you didn't

http://michigan.lawschoolnumbers.com/ap ... ,8&type=jd

I'm not in that group there, but it's looking bleak.


Must be YP. :P

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AngryAvocado
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Re: YP at Michigan is DISGUSTING

Postby AngryAvocado » Fri Feb 26, 2010 10:34 pm

scribelaw wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:
scribelaw wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:Also, I think LSN is really of limited value when looking at so small a number compared to the entire application pool.


Ok.

I think it's pretty clear when you take the same GPA, and the group with the higher LSAT (172-173) has a 56 percent acceptance rate and the group with the lower LSAT (169-170) has a 93 percent acceptance rate. LSN is a limited sample, for sure, but it's still useful and I can't think of any reason there would be such an enormous statiscal difference aside from YP.



1) I'm guessing there were a lot more ED applicants in the 169-170 group than there were in the 172-173 group, did you account for that?
2) I still think it's a small sample. Michigan is probably going to have about 6500 applications this year. 900 or so are on LSN, who knows how many people fudge their numbers, it's just not that statistically sound IMO, especially when comparing even 20 people with one LSAT score with 20 other people with a different LSAT score, when there could be 300 or so other people out there whose numbers fit the profiles you're comparing.


Strangely, I don't think one person in my sample from the 169-170 did ED. Here is a link:

http://michigan.lawschoolnumbers.com/applicants/0910/?lsat2=170&lsatR=true&lsat1=169&lgpa1=3.60&lgpa2=3.80&status=3,4,5,6,7,8&type=jd

On the other hand, one admit in the 172-173 sample did ED.


I think it's pretty clear that all of MVP do yield protect to some extent. That said, I'm pretty tired of people claiming YP every time they get waitlisted/dinged from a school they expected to get into. Y'know, maybe they're just not that into you...

FWIW, I was among the people YPed by Michigan today. :P

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Shlonster
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Re: YP at Michigan is DISGUSTING

Postby Shlonster » Fri Feb 26, 2010 10:43 pm

scribelaw wrote:Strangely, I don't think one person in my sample from the 169-170 did ED. Here is a link:

http://michigan.lawschoolnumbers.com/applicants/0910/?lsat2=170&lsatR=true&lsat1=169&lgpa1=3.60&lgpa2=3.80&status=3,4,5,6,7,8&type=jd

On the other hand, one admit in the 172-173 sample did ED.


For a forum full of people so proud of their logic and LSAT skills, the annoying excuse of YP runs rampant -- just because something could be an explanation doesn't make it the explanation. I know plenty of you are smart enough to realize that, but seriously, anytime someone doesn't get into a school where they are > both 75th's, it is always YP. I can't come up with a better reason to explain the numbers you're coming up with scribe, but i'm also not convinced. Plus, as said before, LSN is a small sampling of applications.

I think most of it's popularity is because people find it a comforting excuse. Just maybe, schools care a little bit about softs and the personality of your application. Maybe.

Disclaimer: I do think it's mostly a numbers game, i'm not the smartest person on this forum or even in this thread, I got lucky on my LSAT, and my application wasn't the greatest. But, I get sick of YP whining. Condolences to those of you who have an honest interest Mich and are decent people, which OP definitely is not.

edit: kinda drunk, and just realized that most people in this thread are pretty realistic about this, but I'm not going back and deleting all of that, and you can't make me.




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