Top Law Schools

Drew2010 wrote:

ram jam wrote:

Drew2010 wrote:

ram jam wrote:It is all this simple... People that cannot get accepted to Florida Law, go to FSU Law. People that cannot get accepted to FSU Law, go to Miami law or stetson, unless they are debt averse, in which case, they will go to FIU law. Florida law school applicants also have the fallback position of NOVA, if shit really hits the fan.

About the NALP. The employment data is great for an overview. However, I have worked for two large size Florida law firms that hire extensively from UF, and neither of these law firms are listed in any of that data. I can say with confidence that the information gathered for those stats are given voluntarily and passively. That data does not represent even 50% of all hiring firms from Florida Law schools.

Is it really that simple? I'm pretty confident I could get accepted to every school in Florida, and I would probably choose Miami over both UF and FSU.

Are you from/live in Florida?

Yes

I got into all three schools and I would choose FSU over UF and UM.

Why? I don't want to challenge your decision, I am just wondering what went into it since I am about to make a decision and want to know what is influencing other people.

mps wrote:Why? I don't want to challenge your decision, I am just wondering what went into it since I am about to make a decision and want to know what is influencing other people.

A full ride with no GPA stipulation from FSU. Also, I'm planning to go into public policy. So, FSU's location is a big plus.

In addition, I like FSU's smaller class size.

What factors are you considering?

I am going to visit schools in a few weeks, so for now I am just reading the arguments back and forth on these boards... i value everything people have to say, and people have really good input! In the coming weeks and before i visit the schools i am going to step up my research, though (and the links ppl posted in this thread and others will be a great resource).

I do think location is significant. I am currently in DC and i have a graduate degree from a school that is ranked much higher than a local school here, but the people from the local school definitely had the leg up thanks to the ability to network/intern/extern, etc while still working towards the degree. as a result, i kind of think rank is less important then access to the right people/experiences while in school.

Are you planning to practice in FL? The FL schools won't get you out of FL unless you're at the top of your class.

Yeah, I want to be in S. FL, where i am from...

Does cost matter to you? What about the school's atmosphere? Most importantly, what's you goal (big law, public interest, etc)?

Edit: I plan on coming back to S. FL as well, but I'm flexible.

The best one -- UF.

/thread

Tuyarp wrote:

mps wrote:Why? I don't want to challenge your decision, I am just wondering what went into it since I am about to make a decision and want to know what is influencing other people.

A full ride with no GPA stipulation from FSU. Also, I'm planning to go into public policy. So, FSU's location is a big plus.

In addition, I like FSU's smaller class size.

What factors are you considering?

Those are very good reasons to go there. For many, FSU is the better place to go. And that pains me to say!

tilghmab wrote:The best one -- UF.

/thread

For some, sure. For others, not necessary. If UF is simply the best school in the state of FL, then it would get all the cross-admits, and that it's not the case.

Tuyarp wrote:If UF is simply the best school in the state of FL, then it would get all the cross-admits, and that it's not the case.

If people were smart enough to make purely objective decisions, then perhaps this statement of yours would be more or less accurate. However, people often base their decisions on "OMG, SOUTH BEACH!!!" and/or "my friend told me X, plus they sent me this really cool pamphlet". Also, UF could be simply the best school in the state of FL without all those cross-admits who choose to go elsewhere knowing it.

GatorStudent wrote:

Aberzombie1892 wrote:
To be honest, I don't know where people received the notion that UM doesn't have pull beyond south Florida. That doesn't even make any sense to begin with. Heck fewer UM people stay instate versus UF.

I don't think that anyone literally believes that it has no pull; rather, the question is whether it has a substantial pull.

And the study I just mentioned does not prove that. People who go to places like Miami rather than Gainesville, FL are (at least theoretically) much more likely to move around to other big cities. They want to be "where the action is."

Additionally, that study bolsters the argument that this shows UF's strength in-state: people at UF Law may very well want to take advantage of their "domination" in the FL legal market. And those out-of-staters that go to Miami may not be able to find a adequate job here. (I'm not originally from Florida, and many firms seem to hold that against you, or at least really question whether you want to stay and work here for the long-haul.)

Some very good points here. I, for one, have never doubted that UM sends more graduates elsewhere in the country than UF does, strictly by the numbers, but since each school has so few graduates going out-of-state, I do not feel that this is worth paying much attention to to begin with. After one considers what GatorStudent brings up, the out-of-state statistics seem even more irrelevant. UF's superior pull throughout the state of Florida relative to UM's is not in dispute, and should usually be what is focused more on for those choosing between the two schools and thinking realistically about getting a job after graduating.

jerzgrl630 wrote:I did take the time to see what was going on, just because I jumped in doesn't mean I didn't read the two pages of posts. I jumped in because you are using OCI numbers as the basis of your argument, when in fact there are a lot of flaws when looking at those numbers. People are pointing out that UF might not be the rosy place you think it is, and you continue to ignore it. And yes, OCI numbers are somewhat marginal if there are very few job opportunities for anyone. Sure, the number of firms doing OCI might be an indicator of interest in a school's students, but I wouldn't consider that a symbol of prestige. Calling UF prestigious is like saying that Chili's is fine dining.

I assumed that you hadn't take the time to see what was going on because what you wrote should only have come from someone who hadn't taken the time to see what was going on. There are potential flaws when looking at OCI numbers as an indicator of how well law schools are thought of by employers, yes. However, when you say, "Sure, the number of firms doing OCI might be an indicator of interest in a school's students", you are granting the basis of my argument for accepting OCI numbers as indicators of prestige. What do you think accounts for more firms being interested in one school's students than another's? If not the two schools' relative levels of prestige, then what?

And real nice, here you go again with your insults. You may have thought that last crack of yours was pretty cute, but as Drew2010 alluded to, UF is as well-recognized as any law school is within Florida, where most people considering Florida schools want to work.

Drew2010 wrote:

Lomax wrote:
What you still seem to be missing - what you just ignored - is that 10 more employers at OCI for UF over UM this year meant one-third more apparently interested in UF than in UM. That correlates with employment outcomes.

Don't you realize that the bolded is simply your assumption, which you're parading around as qualified opinion? You're arguing pretty hard for something there just isn't good enough data to prove (the NLJ250 data is probably as good as we're going to get, and it makes it look like there is only a marginal difference between the two if there is any difference at all).

The data could be better, but it is all we have to go on for employment, unless you want to resort to using those notoriously tainted school-released numbers. The bolded is an assumption, but it is a reasonable assumption. Parading around as a qualified person? I love how simply because I am strongly arguing a position here, I am being labeled and attacked on a personal level. I am not and have never pretended to be "qualified" in any sense - in fact, in a previous post I stated that I was certainly no expert. All I am is a thinking individual who carefully considers the information made available to him and analyses it objectively. Look - if one-third more firms are interviewing at one school than at another, it isn't all that great of a stretch to assume that more - perhaps substantially more - firms overall will be preferring the services of the school that was preferred according to the OCI data. I will grant you that that because one-third here means only 10 more employers, there is a greater chance of the data being unreliable. However, I do not think that this should prevent us from considering it.

The bottom line, anyway, from the analysis of the OCI data should never have been in dispute - that being that UF has greater pull than UM throughout Florida, overall.

Tuyarp wrote:

mps wrote:Why? I don't want to challenge your decision, I am just wondering what went into it since I am about to make a decision and want to know what is influencing other people.

A full ride with no GPA stipulation from FSU. Also, I'm planning to go into public policy. So, FSU's location is a big plus.

In addition, I like FSU's smaller class size.

What factors are you considering?

Nice reasons. Even the strongest Gator or Cane advocate would have a tough time arguing you should do otherwise.

darknightbegins wrote:

Tuyarp wrote:

mps wrote:Why? I don't want to challenge your decision, I am just wondering what went into it since I am about to make a decision and want to know what is influencing other people.

A full ride with no GPA stipulation from FSU. Also, I'm planning to go into public policy. So, FSU's location is a big plus.

In addition, I like FSU's smaller class size.

What factors are you considering?

Nice reasons. Even the strongest Gator or Cane advocate would have a tough time arguing you should do otherwise.

I'll prove my lack of irrational pro-UF bias and agree - for the most part. Playing The Devil's Advocate (which I always have to do, given that I am Lomax - see the movie starring Keanu Reeves if you don't know what I'm talking about), however, I will bring up the fact that one can change one's mind about what one wants to do. Should Tuyarp find, after taking a few classes, that something other than public policy that FSU is not overwhelmingly strong in is more to Tuyarp's liking, Tuyarp's choice of FSU over UF could prove to be a poor one in the long run, despite the difference in cost. I will refer not only to the OCI numbers, but also, as much as I hate to, to the school-published employment data here (only because it shows such a disparity in outcomes). That said, if I felt dead-set on public policy and had a full ride from FSU, I would almost certainly go there over UF (paying regular in-state tuition).

http://www.superlawyers.com/toplists/la ... orge+mason

I know that the link says GMU at the end. But the link displays a list of law schools ranked by number of super lawyers. Given that the older schools with larger class sizes etc may contribute to the number of Super Lawyers (as the mag calls them), it sheds some light on the sizes of alumni base, etc. FWIW

Lomax wrote:

Tuyarp wrote:If UF is simply the best school in the state of FL, then it would get all the cross-admits, and that it's not the case.

If people were smart enough to make purely objective decisions, then perhaps this statement of yours would be more or less accurate. However, people often base their decisions on "OMG, SOUTH BEACH!!!" and/or "my friend told me X, plus they sent me this really cool pamphlet". Also, UF could be simply the best school in the state of FL without all those cross-admits who choose to go elsewhere knowing it.

I assumed that people are rational and do seek information before making decisions. Do we actually make purely objective decisions? What standards are purely objective across the board? I say this because people's goals are different, thus the standards that are used to evaluate options against those goals are going to be different. Hence, some people choose UF, some people choose UM, others choose FSU, and the rest choose other schools in FL (if they must stay in FL).

Lomax wrote:

darknightbegins wrote:

Tuyarp wrote:

mps wrote:Why? I don't want to challenge your decision, I am just wondering what went into it since I am about to make a decision and want to know what is influencing other people.

A full ride with no GPA stipulation from FSU. Also, I'm planning to go into public policy. So, FSU's location is a big plus.

In addition, I like FSU's smaller class size.

What factors are you considering?

Nice reasons. Even the strongest Gator or Cane advocate would have a tough time arguing you should do otherwise.

I'll prove my lack of irrational pro-UF bias and agree - for the most part. Playing The Devil's Advocate (which I always have to do, given that I am Lomax - see the movie starring Keanu Reeves if you don't know what I'm talking about), however, I will bring up the fact that one can change one's mind about what one wants to do. Should Tuyarp find, after taking a few classes, that something other than public policy that FSU is not overwhelmingly strong in is more to Tuyarp's liking, Tuyarp's choice of FSU over UF could prove to be a poor one in the long run, despite the difference in cost. I will refer not only to the OCI numbers, but also, as much as I hate to, to the school-published employment data here (only because it shows such a disparity in outcomes). That said, if I felt dead-set on public policy and had a full ride from FSU, I would almost certainly go there over UF (paying regular in-state tuition).

It's not the classes at FSU, it's the location. I like the opportunity to do an externship in Tallahassee while attending school. Since we are playing the devil's advocate, I'd like to point out that the disparity in outcomes could be the result of self-selection; maybe FSU grads favor government jobs over firms. Of course, one can change one's mind while at UF as well.

Lomax is just a UF Honk don't worry about it. He can have some good points but overall he is a die hard Honk. I respect his dedication hough.

Lomax wrote:

Drew2010 wrote:

Lomax wrote:
What you still seem to be missing - what you just ignored - is that 10 more employers at OCI for UF over UM this year meant one-third more apparently interested in UF than in UM. That correlates with employment outcomes.

Don't you realize that the bolded is simply your assumption, which you're parading around as qualified opinion? You're arguing pretty hard for something there just isn't good enough data to prove (the NLJ250 data is probably as good as we're going to get, and it makes it look like there is only a marginal difference between the two if there is any difference at all).

Parading around as a qualified person? I love how simply because I am strongly arguing a position here, I am being labeled and attacked on a personal level.

Lomax wrote:
I am not sensitive about this topic. I am sensitive to people parading their entirely baseless opinions around as qualified ones

I was using your own language... get it?

Tuyarp wrote:It's not the classes at FSU, it's the location. I like the opportunity to do an externship in Tallahassee while attending school. Since we are playing the devil's advocate, I'd like to point out that the disparity in outcomes could be the result of self-selection; maybe FSU grads favor government jobs over firms. Of course, one can change one's mind while at UF as well.

I recognized that. No school should be selected based primarily on the strength of its curricular programs. As for the income disparity - your argument doesn't work, given that the reported numbers in question are supposedly private-sector only. Yes, one can change one's mind about what one wants to concentrate on at UF - but once at UF, one is at the top overall law school in Florida, objectively-speaking.

darknightbegins wrote:Lomax is just a UF Honk don't worry about it. He can have some good points but overall he is a die hard Honk. I respect his dedication hough.

Thanks for your vote of confidence, darknightbegins. I really do not appreciate being labeled a "Honk" for simply supporting a position with what you, darknightbegins, yourself refer to as "good points". If you stick to your guns in supporting the well-supported position of a pro-bono client named John Doe once you become an attorney, should I label you a "John Doe Honk"?

Lomax wrote:

Tuyarp wrote:It's not the classes at FSU, it's the location. I like the opportunity to do an externship in Tallahassee while attending school. Since we are playing the devil's advocate, I'd like to point out that the disparity in outcomes could be the result of self-selection; maybe FSU grads favor government jobs over firms. Of course, one can change one's mind while at UF as well.

I recognized that. No school should be selected based primarily on the strength of its curricular programs. As for the income disparity - your argument doesn't work, given that the reported numbers in question are supposedly private-sector only. Yes, one can change one's mind about what one wants to concentrate on at UF - but once at UF, one is at the top overall law school in Florida, objectively-speaking.[/quote]

Lomax wrote:

Tuyarp wrote:It's not the classes at FSU, it's the location. I like the opportunity to do an externship in Tallahassee while attending school. Since we are playing the devil's advocate, I'd like to point out that the disparity in outcomes could be the result of self-selection; maybe FSU grads favor government jobs over firms. Of course, one can change one's mind while at UF as well.

I recognized that. No school should be selected based primarily on the strength of its curricular programs. As for the income disparity - your argument doesn't work, given that the reported numbers in question are supposedly private-sector only. Yes, one can change one's mind about what one wants to concentrate on at UF - but once at UF, one is at the top overall law school in Florida, objectively-speaking.

darknightbegins wrote:Lomax is just a UF Honk don't worry about it. He can have some good points but overall he is a die hard Honk. I respect his dedication hough.

Thanks for your vote of confidence, darknightbegins. I really do not appreciate being labeled a "Honk" for simply supporting a position with what you, darknightbegins, yourself refer to as "good points". If you stick to your guns in supporting the well-supported position of a pro-bono client named John Doe once you become an attorney, should I label you a "John Doe Honk"?

Yeah. I didn't say that being a Honk was necessarily a bad thing. Damn right I'll be a honk for my client! And when you ask me to be objective about client you should take into consideration me being a honk for John Doe.

darknightbegins wrote:And when you ask me to be objective about client you should take into consideration me being a honk for John Doe.

Ah, so that explains it. You've been questioning all I've been saying simply because I've been saying a lot. Perhaps you would be better served, at least in this situation, by taking each argument on its own merit.

Anyway, it looks like this is finally petering out. Hopefully all this discussion has helped some people better consider their options.

ITT: Lomax debates the strengths and weakness of Florida law schools with....himself. Vanity, my favorite sin of them all