Which Florida Law school to go to?

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Lomax
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Re: Which Florida Law school to go to?

Postby Lomax » Thu Feb 18, 2010 3:04 am

Aberzombie1892 wrote:I'm surprised that you never rebutted one of my earlier assumptions.

UM=UF in big law placement (in 2005).

Neither one of them has shifted much, rank wise, so there is no reason to assume they have not moved in step with each other since then (with FSU placing half as many as them).

Since that is a fact, isn't everything that you are saying just an assumption that UF is better?

True 10 more employers come to UF, but that doesn't result in better employment outcomes.

Isn't better employment outcomes the entire point of having more employers show up?

But honestly, someone here is being far too sensitive about something that they apparently know relatively little about.

(here's a hint, it's not jerzgrl630)


I don't have evidence to refute your assumption that UM=UF in big law placement in 2005, so I won't. My evidence and the testimony of others shows that UF > UM in overall job placement throughout Florida now and in the past. That, I feel, is more important than big law placement.

What you still seem to be missing - what you just ignored - is that 10 more employers at OCI for UF over UM this year meant one-third more apparently interested in UF than in UM. That correlates with employment outcomes.

I am not sensitive about this topic. I am sensitive to people parading their entirely baseless opinions around as qualified ones in the faces of people making serious decisions. I am also sensitive to people making personal attacks on me for trying honestly to argue facts with reason, like this troll, spearnreel, who I have seen respond to my posts only 3 or 4 times, on each occasion with flames, and, to a somewhat lesser extent, like jerzgrl630.

Sky'stheLimit
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Re: Which Florida Law school to go to?

Postby Sky'stheLimit » Thu Feb 18, 2010 3:38 am

Lomax wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:I'm surprised that you never rebutted one of my earlier assumptions.

UM=UF in big law placement (in 2005).

Neither one of them has shifted much, rank wise, so there is no reason to assume they have not moved in step with each other since then (with FSU placing half as many as them).

Since that is a fact, isn't everything that you are saying just an assumption that UF is better?

True 10 more employers come to UF, but that doesn't result in better employment outcomes.

Isn't better employment outcomes the entire point of having more employers show up?

But honestly, someone here is being far too sensitive about something that they apparently know relatively little about.

(here's a hint, it's not jerzgrl630)


I don't have evidence to refute your assumption that UM=UF in big law placement in 2005, so I won't. My evidence and the testimony of others shows that UF > UM in overall job placement throughout Florida now and in the past. That, I feel, is more important than big law placement.

What you still seem to be missing - what you just ignored - is that 10 more employers at OCI for UF over UM this year meant one-third more apparently interested in UF than in UM. That correlates with employment outcomes.

I am not sensitive about this topic. I am sensitive to people parading their entirely baseless opinions around as qualified ones in the faces of people making serious decisions. I am also sensitive to people making personal attacks on me for trying honestly to argue facts with reason, like this troll, spearnreel, who I have seen respond to my posts only 3 or 4 times, on each occasion with flames, and, to a somewhat lesser extent, like jerzgrl630.



Correlates with employment outcomes....?

More like, UMs pull is limited to the South FL market, but powerful (they produced 30 firms, compared to FL who only did 10 more, but probably drawing Tampa, Orlando, and Jacksonville firms in addition to South FL).

I have a PDF of the NLJ250, but I dont know how to attach it. Look it up online, they both send about 10% to the NLJ250.

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DallasCowboy
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Re: Which Florida Law school to go to?

Postby DallasCowboy » Thu Feb 18, 2010 3:55 am

Stetson is not as good as UF and costs double with 12 OCI's last year. UM is not as good as UF and costs double. FSU may or may not be, depending if you want to work in the government. Whoever got into UF but is going to Stetson for personal reasons, don't. Is this thread serious?

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Mickey Quicknumbers
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Re: Which Florida Law school to go to?

Postby Mickey Quicknumbers » Thu Feb 18, 2010 3:57 am

DallasCowboy wrote:Stetson is not as good as UF and costs double with 12 OCI's last year. UM is not as good as UF and costs double. FSU may or may not be, depending if you want to work in the government. Whoever got into UF but is going to Stetson for personal reasons, don't. Is this thread serious?


Read the OP again, you're answering the wrong question.

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Lomax
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Re: Which Florida Law school to go to?

Postby Lomax » Thu Feb 18, 2010 3:57 am

Sky'stheLimit wrote:More like, UMs pull is limited to the South FL market, but powerful (they produced 30 firms, compared to FL who only did 10 more, but probably drawing Tampa, Orlando, and Jacksonville firms in addition to South FL).


In other words, UM's pull is weaker than UF's. UM's doesn't extend much past its source in South Florida, while UF's extends down from Gainesville to include South Florida as well to-be-expected Central Florida. Why is UM's pull weaker than UF's? Because it isn't as well recognized and respected throughout the state and/or doesn't have as good of an alumni base. UM produced only 2 more Miami firms for OCI than UF did, by the way.

You know, I'm getting really tired of this. No judge, eternally silent jury, no contingent fee, opposing counsels who act like they bribed their ways onto the bar - I think I'm just gonna call it quits and let rad law hold fort.

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DallasCowboy
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Re: Which Florida Law school to go to?

Postby DallasCowboy » Thu Feb 18, 2010 4:00 am

adh07d wrote:
DallasCowboy wrote:Stetson is not as good as UF and costs double with 12 OCI's last year. UM is not as good as UF and costs double. FSU may or may not be, depending if you want to work in the government. Whoever got into UF but is going to Stetson for personal reasons, don't. Is this thread serious?


Read the OP again, you're answering the wrong question.


As for the OP, The U, obviously, if he wants to live in South Florida.

Don't forget about GPA requirements at Stetson.

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Grizz
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Re: Which Florida Law school to go to?

Postby Grizz » Thu Feb 18, 2010 4:39 am

Sky'stheLimit wrote:More like, UMs pull is limited to the South FL market, but powerful (they produced 30 firms, compared to FL who only did 10 more, but probably drawing Tampa, Orlando, and Jacksonville firms in addition to South FL).


This is what I have maintained. Considering the relative costs and pull of both schools, UF =(at the very least) UM in south FL, and UF>UM everywhere else. Therefore, in 99% of cases, I would recommend UF.

Lomax wrote:In other words, UM's pull is weaker than UF's. UM's doesn't extend much past its source in South Florida, while UF's extends down from Gainesville to include South Florida as well to-be-expected Central Florida. Why is UM's pull weaker than UF's? Because it isn't as well recognized and respected throughout the state and/or doesn't have as good of an alumni base. UM produced only 2 more Miami firms for OCI than UF did, by the way.

You know, I'm getting really tired of this. No judge, eternally silent jury, no contingent fee, opposing counsels who act like they bribed their ways onto the bar - I think I'm just gonna call it quits and let rad law hold fort.


I am rapidly losing interest in this argument is well. No one's gonna budge on this one.

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Drew2010
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Re: Which Florida Law school to go to?

Postby Drew2010 » Thu Feb 18, 2010 8:21 am

spearnreel wrote:
Lomax wrote:My panties are never in a bunch. Everyone else's are.

Image


I literally laughed... wow... +10 sir, +10

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Drew2010
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Re: Which Florida Law school to go to?

Postby Drew2010 » Thu Feb 18, 2010 8:32 am

Lomax wrote:
What you still seem to be missing - what you just ignored - is that 10 more employers at OCI for UF over UM this year meant one-third more apparently interested in UF than in UM. That correlates with employment outcomes.

I am not sensitive about this topic. I am sensitive to people parading their entirely baseless opinions around as qualified ones in the faces of people making serious decisions. I am also sensitive to people making personal attacks on me for trying honestly to argue facts with reason, like this troll, spearnreel, who I have seen respond to my posts only 3 or 4 times, on each occasion with flames, and, to a somewhat lesser extent, like jerzgrl630.


Don't you realize that the bolded is simply your assumption, which you're parading around as qualified opinion? You're arguing pretty hard for something there just isn't good enough data to prove (the NLJ250 data is probably as good as we're going to get, and it makes it look like there is only a marginal difference between the two if there is any difference at all).

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: Which Florida Law school to go to?

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Thu Feb 18, 2010 8:57 am

Lomax wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:I'm surprised that you never rebutted one of my earlier assumptions.

UM=UF in big law placement (in 2005).

Neither one of them has shifted much, rank wise, so there is no reason to assume they have not moved in step with each other since then (with FSU placing half as many as them).

Since that is a fact, isn't everything that you are saying just an assumption that UF is better?

True 10 more employers come to UF, but that doesn't result in better employment outcomes.

Isn't better employment outcomes the entire point of having more employers show up?

But honestly, someone here is being far too sensitive about something that they apparently know relatively little about.

(here's a hint, it's not jerzgrl630)


I don't have evidence to refute your assumption that UM=UF in big law placement in 2005, so I won't. My evidence and the testimony of others shows that UF > UM in overall job placement throughout Florida now and in the past. That, I feel, is more important than big law placement.

What you still seem to be missing - what you just ignored - is that 10 more employers at OCI for UF over UM this year meant one-third more apparently interested in UF than in UM. That correlates with employment outcomes.

I am not sensitive about this topic. I am sensitive to people parading their entirely baseless opinions around as qualified ones in the faces of people making serious decisions. I am also sensitive to people making personal attacks on me for trying honestly to argue facts with reason, like this troll, spearnreel, who I have seen respond to my posts only 3 or 4 times, on each occasion with flames, and, to a somewhat lesser extent, like jerzgrl630.


But see...I didn't ignore it.

In my earlier post, that you quoted no less, I stated that the employment outcomes were the same regardless of the additional 10 firms.

Ah here it is:

Aberzombie1892 wrote:True 10 more employers come to UF, but that doesn't result in better employment outcomes.


Trust me, I know how things may seem

For example, everyone in MS will talk like Ole Miss > Mississippi College.

But that's just not true anymore. It used to be that way though (hell MC law is only 30 years old and Ole Miss is around 130 years old).

Maybe UF law used to be wwwaaayyyy better at placment than UM. But it just doesn't seem true anymore.

But that doesn't change the fact that it's a bargain for instate students - and that is why it is the valid choice for instate people (not unlike UGA vs. Emory, or UC Berkeley vs. Stanford, UCLA vs. USC, William and Mary vs. Washington and Lee, Ole Miss vs. Mississippi College, UNC vs. Wake, etc.)

Oh I wasn't aware of any former history with various posters.

Regardless, those 10 additional employers do no result in additional employment outcomes for UF people and so I feel like they only make a marginal impact (if any at all - which there is no evidence that they do make an impact while there is evidence that they don't).

GatorStudent
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Re: Which Florida Law school to go to?

Postby GatorStudent » Thu Feb 18, 2010 9:11 am

DallasCowboy wrote:None of them ITE

From what I hear from my law school friends here (UF): nobody has jobs


This is true to a large extent. Even those on LR are having trouble finding jobs, although many of them now do have a job. (Just maybe not the job they wanted.)

OP, it's good that you're thinking about location. At the same time....is it worth it to you to be over 100k in debt from Miami, especially considering the state (and possible future state for some time) of the legal economy? You need to ask yourself that question.

Stetson does well in the Tampa area, if you're willing to stay close to home.

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Re: Which Florida Law school to go to?

Postby GatorStudent » Thu Feb 18, 2010 9:17 am

Lomax wrote:
Sky'stheLimit wrote:More like, UMs pull is limited to the South FL market, but powerful (they produced 30 firms, compared to FL who only did 10 more, but probably drawing Tampa, Orlando, and Jacksonville firms in addition to South FL).


In other words, UM's pull is weaker than UF's. UM's doesn't extend much past its source in South Florida, while UF's extends down from Gainesville to include South Florida as well to-be-expected Central Florida. Why is UM's pull weaker than UF's? Because it isn't as well recognized and respected throughout the state and/or doesn't have as good of an alumni base. UM produced only 2 more Miami firms for OCI than UF did, by the way.

You know, I'm getting really tired of this. No judge, eternally silent jury, no contingent fee, opposing counsels who act like they bribed their ways onto the bar - I think I'm just gonna call it quits and let rad law hold fort.


In the interest of full disclosure, I saw a study a few years ago showing that Miami actually had more national/regional reach than UF. It was a fairly comprehensive study too, IIRC. (However, this could be more due to the fact that those who go to UM are more willing to move to big cities and other regions, whereas UF grads tend to stay in Florida.)

ram jam
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Re: Which Florida Law school to go to?

Postby ram jam » Thu Feb 18, 2010 9:19 am

It is all this simple... People that cannot get accepted to Florida Law, go to FSU Law. People that cannot get accepted to FSU Law, go to Miami law or stetson, unless they are debt averse, in which case, they will go to FIU law. Florida law school applicants also have the fallback position of NOVA, if shit really hits the fan.

About the NALP. The employment data is great for an overview. However, I have worked for two large size Florida law firms that hire extensively from UF, and neither of these law firms are listed in any of that data. I can say with confidence that the information gathered for those stats are given voluntarily and passively. That data does not represent even 50% of all hiring firms from Florida Law schools.

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flhealth
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Re: Which Florida Law school to go to?

Postby flhealth » Thu Feb 18, 2010 9:22 am

Lomax wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:I'm surprised that you never rebutted one of my earlier assumptions.

UM=UF in big law placement (in 2005).

Neither one of them has shifted much, rank wise, so there is no reason to assume they have not moved in step with each other since then (with FSU placing half as many as them).

Since that is a fact, isn't everything that you are saying just an assumption that UF is better?

True 10 more employers come to UF, but that doesn't result in better employment outcomes.

Isn't better employment outcomes the entire point of having more employers show up?

But honestly, someone here is being far too sensitive about something that they apparently know relatively little about.

(here's a hint, it's not jerzgrl630)


I don't have evidence to refute your assumption that UM=UF in big law placement in 2005, so I won't. My evidence and the testimony of others shows that UF > UM in overall job placement throughout Florida now and in the past. That, I feel, is more important than big law placement.

What you still seem to be missing - what you just ignored - is that 10 more employers at OCI for UF over UM this year meant one-third more apparently interested in UF than in UM. That correlates with employment outcomes.

I am not sensitive about this topic. I am sensitive to people parading their entirely baseless opinions around as qualified ones in the faces of people making serious decisions. I am also sensitive to people making personal attacks on me for trying honestly to argue facts with reason, like this troll, spearnreel, who I have seen respond to my posts only 3 or 4 times, on each occasion with flames, and, to a somewhat lesser extent, like jerzgrl630.

you must be a pleasure...get back to me in a couple of years when the reality sets in

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: Which Florida Law school to go to?

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Thu Feb 18, 2010 9:40 am

GatorStudent wrote:In the interest of full disclosure, I saw a study a few years ago showing that Miami actually had more national/regional reach than UF. It was a fairly comprehensive study too, IIRC. (However, this could be more due to the fact that those who go to UM are more willing to move to big cities and other regions, whereas UF grads tend to stay in Florida.)


That's true, but I wasn't going to touch that amid a sea apparently of hardcore UF people.

To be honest, I don't know where people received the notion that UM doesn't have pull beyond south Florida. That doesn't even make any sense to begin with. Heck fewer UM people stay instate versus UF.

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Drew2010
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Re: Which Florida Law school to go to?

Postby Drew2010 » Thu Feb 18, 2010 10:19 am

ram jam wrote:It is all this simple... People that cannot get accepted to Florida Law, go to FSU Law. People that cannot get accepted to FSU Law, go to Miami law or stetson, unless they are debt averse, in which case, they will go to FIU law. Florida law school applicants also have the fallback position of NOVA, if shit really hits the fan.

About the NALP. The employment data is great for an overview. However, I have worked for two large size Florida law firms that hire extensively from UF, and neither of these law firms are listed in any of that data. I can say with confidence that the information gathered for those stats are given voluntarily and passively. That data does not represent even 50% of all hiring firms from Florida Law schools.


Is it really that simple? I'm pretty confident I could get accepted to every school in Florida, and I would probably choose Miami over both UF and FSU.

ram jam
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Re: Which Florida Law school to go to?

Postby ram jam » Thu Feb 18, 2010 11:19 am

Drew2010 wrote:
ram jam wrote:It is all this simple... People that cannot get accepted to Florida Law, go to FSU Law. People that cannot get accepted to FSU Law, go to Miami law or stetson, unless they are debt averse, in which case, they will go to FIU law. Florida law school applicants also have the fallback position of NOVA, if shit really hits the fan.

About the NALP. The employment data is great for an overview. However, I have worked for two large size Florida law firms that hire extensively from UF, and neither of these law firms are listed in any of that data. I can say with confidence that the information gathered for those stats are given voluntarily and passively. That data does not represent even 50% of all hiring firms from Florida Law schools.


Is it really that simple? I'm pretty confident I could get accepted to every school in Florida, and I would probably choose Miami over both UF and FSU.


Are you from/live in Florida?

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Drew2010
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Re: Which Florida Law school to go to?

Postby Drew2010 » Thu Feb 18, 2010 11:36 am

ram jam wrote:
Drew2010 wrote:
ram jam wrote:It is all this simple... People that cannot get accepted to Florida Law, go to FSU Law. People that cannot get accepted to FSU Law, go to Miami law or stetson, unless they are debt averse, in which case, they will go to FIU law. Florida law school applicants also have the fallback position of NOVA, if shit really hits the fan.

About the NALP. The employment data is great for an overview. However, I have worked for two large size Florida law firms that hire extensively from UF, and neither of these law firms are listed in any of that data. I can say with confidence that the information gathered for those stats are given voluntarily and passively. That data does not represent even 50% of all hiring firms from Florida Law schools.


Is it really that simple? I'm pretty confident I could get accepted to every school in Florida, and I would probably choose Miami over both UF and FSU.


Are you from/live in Florida?


Yes

jerzgrl630
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Re: Which Florida Law school to go to?

Postby jerzgrl630 » Thu Feb 18, 2010 11:36 am

Lomax wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:Gosh don't get you panties in a bunch.

Well if that is the case why don't people take Fordham over Cornell? It has more employers at OCI...That conclusion would follow your reasoning. Heck why not replace Cornell with Fordham in the T14?


My panties are never in a bunch. Everyone else's are.

Fordham graduating class: around 500 students. Cornell's graduating class: around 200 students. Fewer students = fewer interviewers. Get it?

Aberzombie1892 wrote:Let's say it made a difference, and you were right. Do you think 10 firms/offices really makes a difference? No.


I am right, and 10 firms does make a difference. Why? Because in this case, 10 firms equates to a third more interviewers than UM. A third more employers are interested in UF grads than in UM grads, at least enough to send reps on campus. It isn't that much of a stretch to say that that can probably be extrapolated to a reasonable degree to the market as a whole.

jerzgrl630 wrote:Sorry, this thread was too amusing for me to stay out of it. Lomax, I know this is hard to believe but just because an employer does OCI on a campus doesn't mean they have to hire anyone from that school. This is why it's called an interview process. A firm can do OCI on 5 campuses, interview 20 candidates, and only have spots for 2 summer associates. While the number of firms doing OCI is definitely important to consider, the difference between UF and UM is kind of marginal when you consider the slaughter that is the Florida legal market.


REALLY?! :shock: I NEVER would have guessed! But... But... Wait! That doesn't mean that firms aren't showing making a special statement of interest in a school and at least giving its students exclusive preference/opportunity to secure a job by choosing to do OCI at that school and not do OCI at the others, does it, jerzgrl630? But I really wouldn't know about that myself - after all I'm just an ignoramus that you can jump into a thread you know nothing about and talk down to on a topic you haven't actually fully considered, aren't I? A third is a difference that could hardly be described as "kind of marginal". "The slaughter that is the Florida legal market" forces one to consider his or her choice of law school even more carefully, as competition for jobs is greater and things like school prestige, OCI, and alumni base might come into play more than ever before. Next time you find a thread too amusing for you to stay out of it, jerzgrl360, perhaps you should either take the time to really see what's going on, or think twice and stay out.

Aberzombie1892 wrote:You are a hardcore UF guy and that's fine. But just because you feel strongly about the school doesn't mean that you should knock it's rival UM.


I'm really not. I just see a lot of people holding completely baseless "opinions" on this matter, and I see those same individuals spitting out so many logical fallacies at the peril of others who are innocently trying to make their law school decision that I feel obligated to respond. I have nothing against UM, FSU, Stetson, etc., or anyone wishing to go to any of those schools. I just wish that people choosing to go to those other schools over UF would be fully informed of the disadvantageous position they are likely putting themselves in as a result. I have taken it upon myself to inform them here. Others, such as yourself, ill-advisably throw around worthless "opinions" to the contrary, usually formulated after a quick glance at the TLS profile pages and a mental picture of South Beach. By doing so, you help no-one and only confuse the honest and needy.


I did take the time to see what was going on, just because I jumped in doesn't mean I didn't read the two pages of posts. I jumped in because you are using OCI numbers as the basis of your argument, when in fact there are a lot of flaws when looking at those numbers. People are pointing out that UF might not be the rosy place you think it is, and you continue to ignore it. And yes, OCI numbers are somewhat marginal if there are very few job opportunities for anyone. Sure, the number of firms doing OCI might be an indicator of interest in a school's students, but I wouldn't consider that a symbol of prestige. Calling UF prestigious is like saying that Chili's is fine dining.

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Drew2010
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Re: Which Florida Law school to go to?

Postby Drew2010 » Thu Feb 18, 2010 11:41 am

jerzgrl630 wrote: Calling UF prestigious is like saying that Chili's is fine dining.


From a national perspective that is probably somewhat true. However, when you view UF, Miami, and to a lesser extent FSU in the context of Florida, they are pretty prestigious schools, and are looked upon pretty favorably.

keg411
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Re: Which Florida Law school to go to?

Postby keg411 » Thu Feb 18, 2010 12:00 pm

Drew2010 wrote:
jerzgrl630 wrote: Calling UF prestigious is like saying that Chili's is fine dining.


From a national perspective that is probably somewhat true. However, when you view UF, Miami, and to a lesser extent FSU in the context of Florida, they are pretty prestigious schools, and are looked upon pretty favorably.


I went to school in FL, so I know all about that but :lol: anyway.

ram jam
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Re: Which Florida Law school to go to?

Postby ram jam » Thu Feb 18, 2010 12:01 pm

Chili is not fine dining? j/k

Does anyone dare make an inference as to what the USNWR ranking will be this year concerning UF v. FSU? think FSU will surpass UF? Thoughts...

GatorStudent
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Re: Which Florida Law school to go to?

Postby GatorStudent » Thu Feb 18, 2010 12:44 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:
That's true, but I wasn't going to touch that amid a sea apparently of hardcore UF people.


I go to UF, but I will be honest with people. That's how I am. I will give them information, and let them decide for themselves.

With that being said, I love it here.

Aberzombie1892 wrote:
To be honest, I don't know where people received the notion that UM doesn't have pull beyond south Florida. That doesn't even make any sense to begin with. Heck fewer UM people stay instate versus UF.


I don't think that anyone literally believes that it has no pull; rather, the question is whether it has a substantial pull.

And the study I just mentioned does not prove that. People who go to places like Miami rather than Gainesville, FL are (at least theoretically) much more likely to move around to other big cities. They want to be "where the action is."

Additionally, that study bolsters the argument that this shows UF's strength in-state: people at UF Law may very well want to take advantage of their "domination" in the FL legal market. And those out-of-staters that go to Miami may not be able to find a adequate job here. (I'm not originally from Florida, and many firms seem to hold that against you, or at least really question whether you want to stay and work here for the long-haul.)

GatorStudent
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Re: Which Florida Law school to go to?

Postby GatorStudent » Thu Feb 18, 2010 12:51 pm

ram jam wrote:
Does anyone dare make an inference as to what the USNWR ranking will be this year concerning UF v. FSU? think FSU will surpass UF? Thoughts...


I doubt it. UF just cut its class size by 25%...and the LSAT went up as a result. IIRC, the class size will be cut a little more too.

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Mickey Quicknumbers
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Re: Which Florida Law school to go to?

Postby Mickey Quicknumbers » Thu Feb 18, 2010 12:57 pm

ram jam wrote:Chili is not fine dining? j/k

Does anyone dare make an inference as to what the USNWR ranking will be this year concerning UF v. FSU? think FSU will surpass UF? Thoughts...


I doubt it too, it seems that amidst the random fluctuation of USNWR rankings, last year saw UF in a trough and FSU at a peak. Someday, it wouldn't surprise me to see FSU higher, but I doubt for now that's going to be the case.




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