LOCI: saying you will withdraw other apps but not meaning it

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cutiewiddlebebe
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Re: LOCI: saying you will withdraw other apps but not meaning it

Postby cutiewiddlebebe » Thu Feb 11, 2010 1:09 pm

Jacques wrote:
Raskolnikoff wrote:What are the possible implications of promising to matriculate at a school and to withdraw other applications right away in a LOCI, but in reality not doing so? Or doing so much later when you see how the rest of the cycle plays out?

Any input is appreciated.


http://lawschoolnumbers.com/daninreallife

Not exactly the same situation, but you'd have the same result, trust me.

lmbo

09042014
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Re: LOCI: saying you will withdraw other apps but not meaning it

Postby 09042014 » Thu Feb 11, 2010 1:10 pm

Daninreal life is a flame.

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Raskolnikoff
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Re: LOCI: saying you will withdraw other apps but not meaning it

Postby Raskolnikoff » Thu Feb 11, 2010 1:11 pm

nyskidude wrote:How about wording it differently? If you say "If accepted, this school would shoot to the top of my list of possible schools to attend," then you are not saying you will definitely go there, but you still say that you probably would.

This would be even worse than the shaky "You are my top choice". I would read this as "You are NOT at the top of my list, but I will throw in this letter anyway".

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los blancos
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Re: LOCI: saying you will withdraw other apps but not meaning it

Postby los blancos » Thu Feb 11, 2010 1:40 pm

amputatedbrain wrote:While I agree that promising this to multiple schools is not the right way to go, its a far cry from breaking a formal ED contract, a whole other league. You're making some type of informal promise, but people's circumstances can change. I can't imagine this would be a Character and Fitness issue . . .you're not breaking any law/contract at all, and they can't screw everyone who has (potentially) made a fib in their career.


Are you a fellow 0L? Because I think you might not know what you're talking about. I don't either, but when you submit any application materials, you're certifying the truth of any statements you make. I've read before on here that even de facto EDing like the OP is considering can be construed as a contract.

Anyways, if you do it and choose not to attend, the school you promised to attend is entirely is a position to screw you, and they probably should.

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los blancos
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Re: LOCI: saying you will withdraw other apps but not meaning it

Postby los blancos » Thu Feb 11, 2010 1:42 pm

blue5385 wrote:
Ginger1492 wrote:I wish this topic had been posted a few days ago because I actually just did this in an LOCI. However, I was actually pretty serious. I would only back out if I got into Stanford, which is incredibly unlikely. Was it still a bad move?


I think it's fine if you're serious about following through.


And if blue gets into Stanford, it means blue ostensibly won't follow through.

I was in a similar situation as far as Stanford vs. Berk - though I wouldn't say I had a clear preference for one or the other. I decided to de facto ED at Berkeley, and I plan on immediately withdrawing everywhere else as promised if I get in.

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vanwinkle
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Re: LOCI: saying you will withdraw other apps but not meaning it

Postby vanwinkle » Thu Feb 11, 2010 1:45 pm

BearDownChicago wrote:wah wah wah... don't be a liar!

leave that attitude for the academics. shits for the birds.

outwit. outplay. outlast.

go for it

You're still here?

Haven't you failed enough on TLS for one lifetime already?

blue5385
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Re: LOCI: saying you will withdraw other apps but not meaning it

Postby blue5385 » Thu Feb 11, 2010 1:45 pm

los blancos wrote:
blue5385 wrote:
Ginger1492 wrote:I wish this topic had been posted a few days ago because I actually just did this in an LOCI. However, I was actually pretty serious. I would only back out if I got into Stanford, which is incredibly unlikely. Was it still a bad move?


I think it's fine if you're serious about following through.


And if blue gets into Stanford, it means blue ostensibly won't follow through.

I was in a similar situation as far as Stanford vs. Berk - though I wouldn't say I had a clear preference for one or the other. I decided to de facto ED at Berkeley, and I plan on immediately withdrawing everywhere else as promised if I get in.


???

(I didn't apply to Stanford, I was just giving my opinion on Ginger's situation...)

edit: I think I read Ginger's initial post too fast. I kind of stopped at 'actually pretty serious.' :oops:

Like I replied to OP, I don't think it's a good idea to say this to a school & then withdraw. I amend my response to Ginger accordingly.
Last edited by blue5385 on Thu Feb 11, 2010 1:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

BenJ
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Re: LOCI: saying you will withdraw other apps but not meaning it

Postby BenJ » Thu Feb 11, 2010 1:49 pm

Jacques wrote:
Raskolnikoff wrote:What are the possible implications of promising to matriculate at a school and to withdraw other applications right away in a LOCI, but in reality not doing so? Or doing so much later when you see how the rest of the cycle plays out?

Any input is appreciated.


http://lawschoolnumbers.com/daninreallife

Not exactly the same situation, but you'd have the same result, trust me.


Not quite. That profile, if it is real, broke an ED contract. That's much, much worse than breaking a non-contractual promise. I don't think any school would rescind admission or reduce your scholarship amount if you just promised to attend and then did not. It's a scummy thing to do, and you'd have a ton of enemies in the admissions office, and it might even come up at C&F later on, but it won't stop you from going to schools to which you are admitted.

Don't do it unless you're serious. I can see worming your way out of it if you get a huge scholarship somewhere else, but it's just not a good thing to do generally.

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vanwinkle
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Re: LOCI: saying you will withdraw other apps but not meaning it

Postby vanwinkle » Thu Feb 11, 2010 1:52 pm

BenJ wrote:Not quite. That profile, if it is real, broke an ED contract. That's much, much worse than breaking a non-contractual promise. I don't think any school would rescind admission or reduce your scholarship amount if you just promised to attend and then did not. It's a scummy thing to do, and you'd have a ton of enemies in the admissions office, and it might even come up at C&F later on, but it won't stop you from going to schools to which you are admitted.

Don't do it unless you're serious. I can see worming your way out of it if you get a huge scholarship somewhere else, but it's just not a good thing to do generally.

A promise made with consideration, if accepted in a reasonable time, becomes a binding contract. If you tell a school, "I will withdraw all my other applications immediately if you accept me," and the school says, "Okay, I accept you," then you have a contract with that school.

This is something you won't learn very clearly until you take Contracts class, but yeah, you could seriously screw yourself with that.

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los blancos
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Re: LOCI: saying you will withdraw other apps but not meaning it

Postby los blancos » Thu Feb 11, 2010 1:56 pm

blue5385 wrote:
los blancos wrote:
blue5385 wrote:
Ginger1492 wrote:I wish this topic had been posted a few days ago because I actually just did this in an LOCI. However, I was actually pretty serious. I would only back out if I got into Stanford, which is incredibly unlikely. Was it still a bad move?


I think it's fine if you're serious about following through.


And if blue gets into Stanford, it means blue ostensibly won't follow through.

I was in a similar situation as far as Stanford vs. Berk - though I wouldn't say I had a clear preference for one or the other. I decided to de facto ED at Berkeley, and I plan on immediately withdrawing everywhere else as promised if I get in.


???

(I didn't apply to Stanford, I was just giving my opinion on Ginger's situation...)

edit: I think I read Ginger's initial post too fast. I kind of stopped at 'actually pretty serious.' :oops:

Like I replied to OP, I don't think it's a good idea to say this to a school & then withdraw. I amend my response to Ginger accordingly.


Haha sorry I misread the quote. My spiel was directed at Ginger too. The bottom line: You can promise to attend, but you have to follow through on that promise. You can back out but you should also keep in mind that you'll likely get screwed at some point if you do.

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los blancos
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Re: LOCI: saying you will withdraw other apps but not meaning it

Postby los blancos » Thu Feb 11, 2010 1:57 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
BenJ wrote:Not quite. That profile, if it is real, broke an ED contract. That's much, much worse than breaking a non-contractual promise. I don't think any school would rescind admission or reduce your scholarship amount if you just promised to attend and then did not. It's a scummy thing to do, and you'd have a ton of enemies in the admissions office, and it might even come up at C&F later on, but it won't stop you from going to schools to which you are admitted.

Don't do it unless you're serious. I can see worming your way out of it if you get a huge scholarship somewhere else, but it's just not a good thing to do generally.

A promise made with consideration, if accepted in a reasonable time, becomes a binding contract. If you tell a school, "I will withdraw all my other applications immediately if you accept me," and the school says, "Okay, I accept you," then you have a contract with that school.

This is something you won't learn very clearly until you take Contracts class, but yeah, you could seriously screw yourself with that.


Hooray for my 0L intuition win. This means I will be top 10% wherever I go. :mrgreen:

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Mr. Matlock
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Re: LOCI: saying you will withdraw other apps but not meaning it

Postby Mr. Matlock » Thu Feb 11, 2010 2:06 pm

This is why we can't have nice things. :|

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Chicklets
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Re: LOCI: saying you will withdraw other apps but not meaning it

Postby Chicklets » Thu Feb 11, 2010 2:36 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
BenJ wrote:Not quite. That profile, if it is real, broke an ED contract. That's much, much worse than breaking a non-contractual promise. I don't think any school would rescind admission or reduce your scholarship amount if you just promised to attend and then did not. It's a scummy thing to do, and you'd have a ton of enemies in the admissions office, and it might even come up at C&F later on, but it won't stop you from going to schools to which you are admitted.

Don't do it unless you're serious. I can see worming your way out of it if you get a huge scholarship somewhere else, but it's just not a good thing to do generally.

A promise made with consideration, if accepted in a reasonable time, becomes a binding contract. If you tell a school, "I will withdraw all my other applications immediately if you accept me," and the school says, "Okay, I accept you," then you have a contract with that school.

This is something you won't learn very clearly until you take Contracts class, but yeah, you could seriously screw yourself with that.


For clarification.... let's say I write a LOCI to Stanford when put on the WL, it's July and I haven't heard back, I've put down seat deposits and moved my family to New York. Then by some miracle I get accepted at Stanford. I wouldn't consider that a reasonable time, would you? What is the protocol? Once you're actually making a cross country move, do you send letters of No Longer Interested to those schools you wrote LOCI too?

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amputatedbrain
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Re: LOCI: saying you will withdraw other apps but not meaning it

Postby amputatedbrain » Thu Feb 11, 2010 3:03 pm

los blancos wrote:
amputatedbrain wrote:While I agree that promising this to multiple schools is not the right way to go, its a far cry from breaking a formal ED contract, a whole other league. You're making some type of informal promise, but people's circumstances can change. I can't imagine this would be a Character and Fitness issue . . .you're not breaking any law/contract at all, and they can't screw everyone who has (potentially) made a fib in their career.


Are you a fellow 0L? Because I think you might not know what you're talking about. I don't either, but when you submit any application materials, you're certifying the truth of any statements you make. I've read before on here that even de facto EDing like the OP is considering can be construed as a contract.

Anyways, if you do it and choose not to attend, the school you promised to attend is entirely is a position to screw you, and they probably should.


Ya, I'm a 0L, so no, I don't really know. I guess the school could try to screw you if they really wanted, but other schools wouldn't be obligated to care (unlike broken ED contracts where they are). On the application itself you formally certify the truth of everything you say, but is an LOCI really considered a binding contract? Again, I'm not defending the practice, I just find it hard to believe that it would be that catastrophic.

stayway
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Re: LOCI: saying you will withdraw other apps but not meaning it

Postby stayway » Thu Feb 11, 2010 3:28 pm

BearDownChicago wrote:
Scurredsitless1 wrote:
BearDownChicago wrote:wah wah wah... don't be a liar!

leave that attitude for the academics. shits for the birds.

outwit. outplay. outlast.

go for it



I don't know if I'm pointing out the obvious, but the great thing about this post is that she is encouraging you to lie. Lying in the application process can seriously hinder your chances for admission/bar qualification. She is trying to "outwit, outplay and outlast" you.


He.

Gracias.

And yes, you should do this. Especially if you applied to Indiana, Wisconsin, and Iowa.


LOL

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Borhas
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Re: LOCI: saying you will withdraw other apps but not meaning it

Postby Borhas » Thu Feb 11, 2010 3:38 pm

Raskolnikoff wrote:Thanks for the responses. A guilt trip was pretty much what I expected.

Would saying "You are my top choice" imply a promise to attend? Or is it the solution to my dilemma?


I think that is legit, or at least not as deceptive

lawhawk
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Re: LOCI: saying you will withdraw other apps but not meaning it

Postby lawhawk » Thu Feb 11, 2010 3:59 pm

Meh, I told Iowa they were my top choice even though I would not go there even if I was offered a full scholly. I wouldn't worry about telling a school they are your top choice. People change their minds (with or without scholarships). IF it ever became a C & F issue, then what an easy one to get out of. "I wrote the LOCI in Feb. but changed my mind in March". Whatever

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SilverE2
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Re: LOCI: saying you will withdraw other apps but not meaning it

Postby SilverE2 » Thu Feb 11, 2010 4:04 pm

Yeah, I think it would be a bit silly if you send them a letter in January, and you don't get off the waitlist until August, when you've already been accepted and moved and plan to attend another school.

What do you guys think of sending a letter like that, and if you don't hear anything from the school by May or so, you call them to withdraw your app, and then make plans to go to another school.

lawhawk
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Re: LOCI: saying you will withdraw other apps but not meaning it

Postby lawhawk » Thu Feb 11, 2010 4:15 pm

Talk is cheap. Everybody knows that. I think that's the bottom line.

No way do you not pass the bar for this. "oh in 2010 your personal rank of law schools changed and since you told a law school your old list you aren't allowed to practice law" yeah ok

lawapps0502
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Re: LOCI: saying you will withdraw other apps but not meaning it

Postby lawapps0502 » Thu Feb 11, 2010 4:19 pm

law schools talk to one another. if you write something to one school, you should assume that all of the other schools you have applied to will discover that same information. if you are dishonest, you are risking getting rejected from all of the schools that you are waiting to hear from. You are going to be a lawyer. Honesty is the best policy.

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Chicklets
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Re: LOCI: saying you will withdraw other apps but not meaning it

Postby Chicklets » Thu Feb 11, 2010 4:23 pm

lawhawk wrote:Meh, I told Iowa they were my top choice even though I would not go there even if I was offered a full scholly. I wouldn't worry about telling a school they are your top choice. People change their minds (with or without scholarships). IF it ever became a C & F issue, then what an easy one to get out of. "I wrote the LOCI in Feb. but changed my mind in March". Whatever



Lawhawk- why would anyone do this? Sending applications to schools you would NOT go to under any circumstances (even if you don't have an acceptance elsewhere yet?), and/or LOCI to those same schools? Just for practice writing applications? Seriously, spend the time seeing a good movie or something.

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amputatedbrain
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Re: LOCI: saying you will withdraw other apps but not meaning it

Postby amputatedbrain » Thu Feb 11, 2010 4:28 pm

Chicklets wrote:
lawhawk wrote:Meh, I told Iowa they were my top choice even though I would not go there even if I was offered a full scholly. I wouldn't worry about telling a school they are your top choice. People change their minds (with or without scholarships). IF it ever became a C & F issue, then what an easy one to get out of. "I wrote the LOCI in Feb. but changed my mind in March". Whatever



Lawhawk- why would anyone do this? Sending applications to schools you would NOT go to under any circumstances (even if you don't have an acceptance elsewhere yet?), and/or LOCI to those same schools? Just for practice writing applications? Seriously, spend the time seeing a good movie or something.


I don't understand this either. We're talking about writing an LOCI saying a school is a top choice even though you may go somewhere else . . . but not even wanting to go to the school in the first place?

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vanwinkle
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Re: LOCI: saying you will withdraw other apps but not meaning it

Postby vanwinkle » Thu Feb 11, 2010 4:30 pm

Chicklets wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:
BenJ wrote:Not quite. That profile, if it is real, broke an ED contract. That's much, much worse than breaking a non-contractual promise. I don't think any school would rescind admission or reduce your scholarship amount if you just promised to attend and then did not. It's a scummy thing to do, and you'd have a ton of enemies in the admissions office, and it might even come up at C&F later on, but it won't stop you from going to schools to which you are admitted.

Don't do it unless you're serious. I can see worming your way out of it if you get a huge scholarship somewhere else, but it's just not a good thing to do generally.

A promise made with consideration, if accepted in a reasonable time, becomes a binding contract. If you tell a school, "I will withdraw all my other applications immediately if you accept me," and the school says, "Okay, I accept you," then you have a contract with that school.

This is something you won't learn very clearly until you take Contracts class, but yeah, you could seriously screw yourself with that.


For clarification.... let's say I write a LOCI to Stanford when put on the WL, it's July and I haven't heard back, I've put down seat deposits and moved my family to New York. Then by some miracle I get accepted at Stanford. I wouldn't consider that a reasonable time, would you? What is the protocol? Once you're actually making a cross country move, do you send letters of No Longer Interested to those schools you wrote LOCI too?

Two things to consider:

1) It depends on how you phrase the offer. If you say such a thing in the same letter as "I will be eagerly waiting for a space all the way up until the first day of class," that probably is a reasonable amount of time for them to accept. Otherwise it could be something less clear.

2) You can always rescind an offer, and it no longer becomes acceptable once you do. You could do this either by withdrawing your application or just sending a new LOCI that changes the offer terms (perhaps by stating your continued interest and saying you are still interested in attending, if the offer comes in time for you to make arrangements to attend). That changes things and reserves you a right to consider whether an acceptance is "in time" or not.

So there are ways to back out of such a statement if it's not accepted immediately, but you'd still want to weigh the ramifications of doing it first. A good general rule is, if you make a clear and definite offer like that, and it feels like you'd be going back on your word by breaking it, you probably are.

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vanwinkle
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Re: LOCI: saying you will withdraw other apps but not meaning it

Postby vanwinkle » Thu Feb 11, 2010 4:33 pm

lawhawk wrote:Meh, I told Iowa they were my top choice even though I would not go there even if I was offered a full scholly. I wouldn't worry about telling a school they are your top choice. People change their minds (with or without scholarships). IF it ever became a C & F issue, then what an easy one to get out of. "I wrote the LOCI in Feb. but changed my mind in March". Whatever

Saying a place is your "first choice" isn't really binding in any way, so while it's skeezy, it's not setting up any kind of contract violation. Of course, this is also why schools have trouble raking statements like this seriously, because of people like this.

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los blancos
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Re: LOCI: saying you will withdraw other apps but not meaning it

Postby los blancos » Thu Feb 11, 2010 4:45 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
lawhawk wrote:Meh, I told Iowa they were my top choice even though I would not go there even if I was offered a full scholly. I wouldn't worry about telling a school they are your top choice. People change their minds (with or without scholarships). IF it ever became a C & F issue, then what an easy one to get out of. "I wrote the LOCI in Feb. but changed my mind in March". Whatever

Saying a place is your "first choice" isn't really binding in any way, so while it's skeezy, it's not setting up any kind of contract violation. Of course, this is also why schools have trouble raking statements like this seriously, because of people like this.


+1

That's why I treated this as a card I could use effectively only at one place (making a binding commitment is 'backing up the talk' to a certain extent). I chose that place and moved on.




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