snob appeal of your undergraduate institution

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Danteshek
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Re: snob appeal of your undergraduate institution

Postby Danteshek » Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:09 am

Say what you want about Princeton, but Princeton is one of the only universities that requires every student to write a senior thesis. That spells rigor to me.

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BioEBear2010
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Re: snob appeal of your undergraduate institution

Postby BioEBear2010 » Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:10 am

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=19882

Top UGs also have higher average LSATs. The students at these top schools are, not surprisingly, smart (or, if nothing else, they are great at taking tests). All things considered, though, I agree with crackberry that there is a bump for elite UGs.

Pearalegal
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Re: snob appeal of your undergraduate institution

Postby Pearalegal » Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:11 am

Also, lets keep in mind that HYS does not give out merit aid. That changes things for a LOT of people...and most of the ones that that changes things are not the ones that could afford to go to an ivy undergrad. So....theres that coming into play in the # of represented 1Ls from top undergrads into the T3 too.

I don't know, I've just seen dumbasses everywhere. There are dumbasses who are high school dropouts, there are dumbasses who are at the top of their class at Harvard. There are so many dumbasses that I don't think theres any sort of rule to be made.

Pearalegal
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Re: snob appeal of your undergraduate institution

Postby Pearalegal » Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:12 am

BioEBear2010 wrote:http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=19882

Top UGs also have higher average LSATs. The students at these top schools are, not surprisingly, smart (or, if nothing else, they are great at taking tests). All things considered, though, I agree with crackberry that there is a bump for elite UGs.


Or can afford expensive prep classes and were raised in an environment where the need for LSAT test prep was thoroughly understood.

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crackberry
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Re: snob appeal of your undergraduate institution

Postby crackberry » Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:12 am

predetermined wrote:But bear in mind that I also pointed out institutional adeptness as one of the qualities students at top undergrads are likely to have. It's more likely that you know how to put together a more compelling application than the student from Bumblefuck.

Yes, and it may be true that I am more likely to have better educated parents who are more likely to help me edit my PS, more well-respected professors to write my LORs, etc.

My point was directed more at the school of thought that all that matters in LS admissions is LSAT and GPA. I am proof that this is not true, and I think my UG institution is at least partly to thank for it.

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BioEBear2010
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Re: snob appeal of your undergraduate institution

Postby BioEBear2010 » Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:13 am

Pearalegal wrote:Or can afford expensive prep classes and were raised in an environment where the need for LSAT test prep was thoroughly understood.

That too. Either way, they do better on standardized tests.

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crackberry
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Re: snob appeal of your undergraduate institution

Postby crackberry » Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:14 am

Pearalegal wrote:Also, lets keep in mind that HYS does not give out merit aid. That changes things for a LOT of people...and most of the ones that that changes things are not the ones that could afford to go to an ivy undergrad. So....theres that coming into play in the # of represented 1Ls from top undergrads into the T3 too.

I don't know, I've just seen dumbasses everywhere. There are dumbasses who are high school dropouts, there are dumbasses who are at the top of their class at Harvard. There are so many dumbasses that I don't think theres any sort of rule to be made.

Eh I doubt that. There are most definitely dumbasses at HYPS, but they aren't at the top of the class.

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reasonabledoubt
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Re: snob appeal of your undergraduate institution

Postby reasonabledoubt » Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:15 am

I'd like to propose the following: "Bumblefuck" = any non-ivy school, for consistency of our arguments.

Pearalegal
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Re: snob appeal of your undergraduate institution

Postby Pearalegal » Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:15 am

crackberry wrote:
Pearalegal wrote:Also, lets keep in mind that HYS does not give out merit aid. That changes things for a LOT of people...and most of the ones that that changes things are not the ones that could afford to go to an ivy undergrad. So....theres that coming into play in the # of represented 1Ls from top undergrads into the T3 too.

I don't know, I've just seen dumbasses everywhere. There are dumbasses who are high school dropouts, there are dumbasses who are at the top of their class at Harvard. There are so many dumbasses that I don't think theres any sort of rule to be made.

Eh I doubt that. There are most definitely dumbasses at HYPS, but they aren't at the top of the class.


Oh yes, there are. Or maybe we have very different definitions of "dumbass."

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prezidentv8
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Re: snob appeal of your undergraduate institution

Postby prezidentv8 » Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:16 am

crackberry wrote:
Pearalegal wrote:Also, lets keep in mind that HYS does not give out merit aid. That changes things for a LOT of people...and most of the ones that that changes things are not the ones that could afford to go to an ivy undergrad. So....theres that coming into play in the # of represented 1Ls from top undergrads into the T3 too.

I don't know, I've just seen dumbasses everywhere. There are dumbasses who are high school dropouts, there are dumbasses who are at the top of their class at Harvard. There are so many dumbasses that I don't think theres any sort of rule to be made.

Eh I doubt that. There are most definitely dumbasses at HYPS, but they aren't at the top of the class.


Depends on your definition of "dumbass" I guess.

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crackberry
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Re: snob appeal of your undergraduate institution

Postby crackberry » Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:18 am

Pearalegal wrote:
crackberry wrote:
Pearalegal wrote:Also, lets keep in mind that HYS does not give out merit aid. That changes things for a LOT of people...and most of the ones that that changes things are not the ones that could afford to go to an ivy undergrad. So....theres that coming into play in the # of represented 1Ls from top undergrads into the T3 too.

I don't know, I've just seen dumbasses everywhere. There are dumbasses who are high school dropouts, there are dumbasses who are at the top of their class at Harvard. There are so many dumbasses that I don't think theres any sort of rule to be made.

Eh I doubt that. There are most definitely dumbasses at HYPS, but they aren't at the top of the class.


Oh yes, there are. Or maybe we have very different definitions of "dumbass."

I have a lot of friends who did very well at my UG (they weren't at the top of the class, but they did well. 3.7+) and are currently work in prestigious finance or consulting jobs who do a ton of coke and drink a lot of alcohol. Sure, they make retarded decisions, but they are definitely book smart.
Last edited by crackberry on Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

Emma1
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Re: snob appeal of your undergraduate institution

Postby Emma1 » Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:18 am

Some law schools do recruit at better ranked colleges!

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englawyer
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Re: snob appeal of your undergraduate institution

Postby englawyer » Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:20 am

Pearalegal wrote:
prezidentv8 wrote:
The Pen Is Mightier wrote:
reasonabledoubt wrote:I'll say this because there is no Princeton Law School. I have several friends that went to Princeton for undergrad. I did not. Here's what they told me about their undergraduate experience: Sure, there were a select few truly brilliant, bright kids. Most were not of this kind. Most came from somewhat privileged to extremely privileged backgrounds and once away from home did a MOUNTAIN of drugs throughout their 4, sometimes 5 years. They got through it because, from what I was told, it wasn't that intensive from an academic point of view and there were several more fluffy majors to choose from. It's not all vigorous scholarship, class and decorum in those IVY leagues, you know.

Here's what I think about a poor kid who went to a state or no-name college and pulled a 3.7-4.0.... they're hungry. Add a high LSAT to that and you tell me if the "snob appeal" of your undergraduate institution would still matter.


The average princeton kid far [strike]outworks[/strike] outworked the average state school (quite possibly the average harvard) kid in [strike]ug[/strike] high school. This is truth.


FTFY


+100. In addition, I think the prestige of high schools for college admissions matters a lot more than the prestige of colleges for law schools, oddly enough.

I went to a boarding school for high school, but kept in touch with many of my friends from public school that continued onto the rather rough school I would have attended. The 3.8 GPAs and whatever the hell a high SAT is now from my boarding school got into top schools with overwhelming more frequency than their public school counterparts.

These kids were no smarter than those over the in the public school, and the kids in public school often had to work harder to learn the material, due to the lack of support. I guarantee you the grading curve was no tougher at my school. Instead, we had admission counselors who personally lobbied top schools on our behalves. Can't beat that.


this is not surprising; elite education is one of the primary mechanisms by which the upper class ensure their offspring maintain upper class status. private high schools control access to elite u-grads, which control access to elite upper class jobs

law is for some reason a bit more forgiving. the legal field is a major reason the jewish population went from low-class in the US to being over-represented at the top echelons of society, see book:

http://books.google.com/books?id=0V0gO8 ... q=&f=false

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ccs224
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Re: snob appeal of your undergraduate institution

Postby ccs224 » Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:21 am

predetermined wrote:
crackberry wrote:For some law schools, like Yale, Chicago and Stanford, you can see the proof in the pudding: UG institution matters.

The most elite universities tend to have the smartest, hardest working and/or institutionally adept students with impressive extracurriculars. This has far more to do with why they'd end up at those schools than simply having an elite university's name on their degree.


I suppose that would depend on what you define as hard working...

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s0ph1e2007
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Re: snob appeal of your undergraduate institution

Postby s0ph1e2007 » Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:23 am

reasonabledoubt wrote:I'll say this because there is no Princeton Law School. I have several friends that went to Princeton for undergrad. I did not. Here's what they told me about their undergraduate experience: Sure, there were a select few truly brilliant, bright kids. Most were not of this kind. Most came from somewhat privileged to extremely privileged backgrounds and once away from home did a MOUNTAIN of drugs throughout their 4, sometimes 5 years. They got through it because, from what I was told, it wasn't that intensive from an academic point of view and there were several more fluffy majors to choose from. It's not all vigorous scholarship, class and decorum in those IVY leagues, you know.

Here's what I think about a poor kid who went to a state or no-name college and pulled a 3.7-4.0.... they're hungry. Add a high LSAT to that and you tell me if the "snob appeal" of your undergraduate institution would still matter.


It is hard for me to understand why people so clearly unable to reason well want to go to law school.

You think an Ivy League education is fluff because your princeton friends told you so? I would imagine they were telling you that so that you would not feel inferior. So what you should have learned from this is that you have nice friends not that ivy leauge schools are easy, which is clearly untrue.

A GPA from an ivy league school is going to have a greater weight than a similar gpa from an easier school. Every T-14 admission officer will tell you that when they see a 3.5 from Ohio State and a 3.5 from Harvard, they believe in the very least (ignoring any assumptions of intelligence) that the Harvard student worked harder.

No need to call me out on being an ivy leauge student. I admit that, but that does not prevent my point from being unbiased.

Pearalegal
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Re: snob appeal of your undergraduate institution

Postby Pearalegal » Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:24 am

crackberry wrote: Sure, they make retarded decisions, but they are definitely book smart.


Yeah, but see...that makes them bigger dumbasses than the kids who aren't book smart but make good decisions.

predetermined wrote:Maybe you mean "douchebag" rather than "dumbass"? :P


No, I mean dumbass.

Having the whole world open to you + living extremely unhealthily + possibly putting your life at risk + possibly devastating your loved ones = biggest dumbasses ever.

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The Pen Is Mightier
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Re: snob appeal of your undergraduate institution

Postby The Pen Is Mightier » Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:25 am

Smells like bitter in here. L8R.

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crackberry
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Re: snob appeal of your undergraduate institution

Postby crackberry » Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:33 am

predetermined wrote:I have no idea how you'd be able to tell. Did you not have any interesting softs?

One thing about undergrad reputation that I grant could make a difference is this: glowing recommendation from faculty at Stanford probably carries more weight than glowing recommendation from faculty at BF.

No, I have some interesting softs. I think we're going to have to agree to disagree here. I don't think that a top public UG like, say, UMich gives you a leg up on worse public like, say, UNC or UC-Davis but I do think the very top UGs (HYPS, MIT) do give LS applicants a boost. That was my original point and I'm sticking to it.

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crackberry
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Re: snob appeal of your undergraduate institution

Postby crackberry » Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:34 am

Pearalegal wrote:
crackberry wrote: Sure, they make retarded decisions, but they are definitely book smart.


Yeah, but see...that makes them bigger dumbasses than the kids who aren't book smart but make good decisions.

predetermined wrote:Maybe you mean "douchebag" rather than "dumbass"? :P


No, I mean dumbass.

Having the whole world open to you + living extremely unhealthily + possibly putting your life at risk + possibly devastating your loved ones = biggest dumbasses ever.

Maybe so, but they are BOOK smart. Yes, they are douchebags and they make horrible decisions, but to call them "dumbasses" is too myopic.

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Reedie
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Re: snob appeal of your undergraduate institution

Postby Reedie » Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:34 am

Grade inflation! Nobody is mentioning it here but a 3.8 from Caltech (where there isn't any) is WAY harder than a 3.8 from Sacramento State. Swarthmore has the same story. Five students have graduated with a 4.0 from my UG in the last twenty years. Apparently the naval academy grades tough as well. That should matter at least as much "prestige" in my view.

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crackberry
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Re: snob appeal of your undergraduate institution

Postby crackberry » Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:35 am

Reedie wrote:Grade inflation! Nobody is mentioning it here but a 3.8 from Caltech (where there isn't any) is WAY harder than a 3.8 from Sacramento State. Swarthmore has the same story. Five students have graduated with a 4.0 from my UG in the last twenty years. Apparently the naval academy grades tough as well. That should matter at least as much "prestige" in my view.

Harvard and Stanford have absurd grade inflation.

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traehekat
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Re: snob appeal of your undergraduate institution

Postby traehekat » Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:37 am

*sigh* I think a lot of you guys are actually missing the point!

YES, a 3.6 from HYPWHATEVER is going to be held in higher regards than a 3.6 from any other school. Before law schools take that into consideration though, I think MOST will put more weight on personal statements, resumes, and letters. The decision of which applicant to take is MOST LIKELY going to be made based on these things. So yeah, the 3.6 from HYP is going to get a tiny bump, but it really won't matter.

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AngryAvocado
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Re: snob appeal of your undergraduate institution

Postby AngryAvocado » Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:40 am

crackberry wrote:
Pearalegal wrote:Also, lets keep in mind that HYS does not give out merit aid. That changes things for a LOT of people...and most of the ones that that changes things are not the ones that could afford to go to an ivy undergrad. So....theres that coming into play in the # of represented 1Ls from top undergrads into the T3 too.

I don't know, I've just seen dumbasses everywhere. There are dumbasses who are high school dropouts, there are dumbasses who are at the top of their class at Harvard. There are so many dumbasses that I don't think theres any sort of rule to be made.

Eh I doubt that. There are most definitely dumbasses at HYPS, but they aren't at the top of the class.


I've met a couple people who did very well at HYS and weren't necessarily the most "naturally" intelligent people, but they had plenty of drive and determination to make up for it. However, it's worth pointing out that law school admissions isn't about finding the smartest people--it's about finding the people who can succeed in law school and in a legal career. Being able to succeed at HYS may not guarantee that you're the among the absolute smartest applicants, but I'd wager it's as good of an indicator as any that you have what it takes to succeed in law school and beyond. That's why I think the importance of just going to a top school is overstated, but distinguishing oneself at such a school is definitely something adcoms factor favorably into their consideration.

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DavidYurman85
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Re: snob appeal of your undergraduate institution

Postby DavidYurman85 » Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:44 am

We can debate grade inflation, program difficulty, and work ethic all day. Bottom line: snob appeal matters-not in call cases but in most.

edit: And sometimes it doesn't even matter if you're smart-telling a client that Kate from (insert fancy school here) is going to be handling you case, over John from ACME State, sounds way more reassuring. We're a brand-name conscious society.

ipreferiphone
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Re: snob appeal of your undergraduate institution

Postby ipreferiphone » Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:54 am

DavidYurman85 wrote:We can debate grade inflation, program difficulty, and work ethic all day. Bottom line: snob appeal matters-not in call cases but in most.

edit: And sometimes it doesn't even matter if you're smart-telling a client that Kate from (insert fancy school here) is going to be handling you case, over John from ACME State, sounds way more reassuring. We're a brand-name conscious society.


+1. I have definitely received preferential treatment over kids who were better qualified but went to lower ranked schools. One of the reasons I attended was because I knew that I could do just "ok" and still get cool gigs.

We'll see how this pans out for LS.




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