snob appeal of your undergraduate institution

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Nom Sawyer
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Re: snob appeal of your undergraduate institution

Postby Nom Sawyer » Fri Jan 22, 2010 5:22 pm

rayiner wrote:
SolarWind wrote:Again, if a student has a 3.4 at HYP that means he's Median (i.e. lets say right in the middle).

You're telling me that someone who got into HYP, and then did as well as at least half of all the other students there, would do worse at OSU just cause there are more Cs,Ds, and Fs???

I think you and Rayiner usually are spot on, but in this... its just not realistic.


I know tons of people at HYPS. Heck, I have a bunch here at NU as classmates. They're smart, but the rigor of the schools is not so different that someone who only did median at HYPS would necessarily be top 5-10% (which is what 3.8+ corresponds to) at a top state school.

Again, if HYPS kids were being so unfairly slighted in admissions, you'd think they'd consistently wind up at the top of the class in law school. Looking at 10 random people from our Law Review, you've got 1 person from HYPS, 1 person from a top LAC, and 8 people who went to everything from University of New Mexico to Duke. That is actually pretty much just the distribution of undergraduate institutions we have...


I dunno, maybe i'm just underestimating rigor at top state schools. I think they're awesome schools, but when you have 15,000 students, its not that hard to hit top 10%. I took classes at one of the top state schools in high school, and as long as you avoid crazy professors, it mainly requires just sustained effort and some smarts to get As.

Also, law school =/= college. I think its much, much easier to do well in college than to do well in law school. And the point is HYPS kids ARE NOT slighted in anyway whatsoever in admissions. I think like 20-30% (higher for Y actually) of HYS come from HYPS.

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Re: snob appeal of your undergraduate institution

Postby 09042014 » Fri Jan 22, 2010 5:24 pm

SolarWind wrote:Ok so based on your numbers (i'm assuming LSAT = ACT) only the bottom 25% of Harvard scored worse than the top 32% of OSU. Thus the 50th percentile will clearly score better or equal to the top 10~15% of OSU. Also i think your numbers might be skewed by the fact that a lot of people only take SAT and don't take ACT.

Further, when you say High School coursework is not great indicator of college success, I definitely agree, but the fact is HYP admissions are so competitive that they barely take high school success into account. Every single applicant is like valedictorian or close to it... usually you need that + a ton of extracurriculars + and basically a whole lot of other stuff.

These things all are great indicators of increased motivation and also just plain obsessiveness about grades. Thus a 50th percentile kid is almost guaranteed not to be that much of a slacker. One of the reasons the GPA at those schools are so high is that the kids will whine about a B.

So they aren't going to be as lazy as you or me.. altho I think u take the cake for laziness DesertFox.. a 178 LSAT and bottom 33% at UIUC lol. I sound like you (number 1 in highschool, 1580 SAT pretty cold, didn't attend ivy cause of cost) but managed to rouse myself out of total lethargy every couple days in college haha.



First of all not everyone at Harvard is Valedictorian (though now I hear about schools that give out 10 Valedictorians so maybe), not even close. You are right about extracurriculars, but that only proves my point more. Some very smart students get passed over because they don't join clubs, or play sports. A well rounded class may be beneficial but it doesn't make it more competitive, it makes it less competitive.

My class rank sounds worse than it is because the electrical and computer engineering department at UIUC is extremely competitive(much more than the school as a whole). Many students turn down Ivy league to go there, since UIUC engineering is better. Lots of students fail out (or more accurately fail into Business programs). The material and coursework is extremely hard (EE itself not just UIUC), so I had to a lot of work, but I did do the bare minimum.

After thinking about it, a 3.85 with a 165 should receive a bump if they attended a top ranked school, but a 3.4 176 was probably pretty lazy and doesn't deserve much of a bump.

I have no doubt the ivy schools have a better student on average, but no way are the bottom of their class better than the top 20% of good public schools. I don't buy it.

I also bet my GPA would be a hell of a lot higher at Harvard if I took poli sci, because they just don't give out many C's. It still would have sucked, and it still would be near the bottom of the class but I bet it would be above 3.0.

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rayiner
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Re: snob appeal of your undergraduate institution

Postby rayiner » Fri Jan 22, 2010 5:25 pm

crackberry wrote:
rayiner wrote:
crackberry wrote:
rayiner wrote:The point is that an average student at Harvard has a 0.4 advantage over the average student at OSU. That's a huge boost for GPA, bearing in mind how little GPA matters for law school admissions to begin with.

Oh come on. Yes, you and your 2.46 may have gotten into Northwestern, but you wouldn't have had a snowball's chance in hell at the T6.


And? My GPA is the percentile equivalent of like a 145, yet it got me into a T14. A 3.3 at a grade-inflated private school (LSAT equivalent of 150) is sufficient for T10. A 3.5 (LSAT equivalent of 155) is sufficient for T6. A 3.7 (LSAT equivalent of 160) is sufficient for T3.

When a top 10% GPA is plenty for HLS but a top 1% LSAT is required, then I think it's entirely fair to say that GPA doesn't matter much for law school admissions. It does matter somewhat, but in very coarse gradations (< 3.3, 3.3-3.7, 3.7 - 3.9, > 3.9), not nearly enough to be worth all the analysis between class competitiveness being argued in this thread.

GPA is the second most important factor in LS admissions. I'd say that means it matters.


Is that in conflict with my statement? I didn't say that GPA didn't matter, just that it didn't matter much.

How much of a boost should an HYPS kid get over an OSU kid, on top of the 0.4 points they already get? 0.1? 0.2? Those minor differences in GPA just don't matter much unless you're right on a median boundary.

This is just such an incredibly moot thread. There aren't enough high LSAT's at state schools to get a ton of state schoolers into top law schools.

You'll figure out as much once you get into law school. Any unfair competition is purely imagined. You'll be in a class with folks who mostly when to T10 undergrads, plus the folks who graduated magna from the top state schools (and the occasional exceptional person from lower T50 schools). A bunch of them will own your Ivy-league ass on finals, and then maybe you'll reconsider the idea that median at HYP should beat out top of the class at UVA, etc.

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Re: snob appeal of your undergraduate institution

Postby 09042014 » Fri Jan 22, 2010 5:26 pm

crackberry wrote:I agree that this thread has been derailed, but people have completely misinterpreted me and now think I'm trying to make the argument that GPA should matter more or as much as the LSAT or something.

Read my words people. If any of you think GPA doesn't matter, you're fucking morons. How many people in here have a sub-3.0 and have gotten into a T6 law school? THERE ARE GPA WALLS PEOPLE, JUST LIKE THERE ARE LSAT WALLS. Sure, the walls may be lower but that's not my goddamn point. Rayiner could have had a 180 and he never would have stood a chance at HYSCCN. That in itself proves my point.


You built a straw man argument, that neither me nor Ray ever supported. Nobody ever said GPA doesn't matter. It just matters a lot less than LSAT.

Like ray said, a 99% LSAT with 50% GPA gets into CCN, and a 50% LSAT and a 99% GPA goes to Florida Costal.

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Nom Sawyer
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Re: snob appeal of your undergraduate institution

Postby Nom Sawyer » Fri Jan 22, 2010 5:27 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
SolarWind wrote:Ok so based on your numbers (i'm assuming LSAT = ACT) only the bottom 25% of Harvard scored worse than the top 32% of OSU. Thus the 50th percentile will clearly score better or equal to the top 10~15% of OSU. Also i think your numbers might be skewed by the fact that a lot of people only take SAT and don't take ACT.

Further, when you say High School coursework is not great indicator of college success, I definitely agree, but the fact is HYP admissions are so competitive that they barely take high school success into account. Every single applicant is like valedictorian or close to it... usually you need that + a ton of extracurriculars + and basically a whole lot of other stuff.

These things all are great indicators of increased motivation and also just plain obsessiveness about grades. Thus a 50th percentile kid is almost guaranteed not to be that much of a slacker. One of the reasons the GPA at those schools are so high is that the kids will whine about a B.

So they aren't going to be as lazy as you or me.. altho I think u take the cake for laziness DesertFox.. a 178 LSAT and bottom 33% at UIUC lol. I sound like you (number 1 in highschool, 1580 SAT pretty cold, didn't attend ivy cause of cost) but managed to rouse myself out of total lethargy every couple days in college haha.



First of all not everyone at Harvard is Valedictorian (though now I hear about schools that give out 10 Valedictorians so maybe), not even close. You are right about extracurriculars, but that only proves my point more. Some very smart students get passed over because they don't join clubs, or play sports. A well rounded class may be beneficial but it doesn't make it more competitive, it makes it less competitive.

My class rank sounds worse than it is because the electrical and computer engineering department at UIUC is extremely competitive(much more than the school as a whole). Many students turn down Ivy league to go there, since UIUC engineering is better. Lots of students fail out (or more accurately fail into Business programs). The material and coursework is extremely hard (EE itself not just UIUC), so I had to a lot of work, but I did do the bare minimum.

After thinking about it, a 3.85 with a 165 should receive a bump if they attended a top ranked school, but a 3.4 176 was probably pretty lazy and doesn't deserve much of a bump.

I have no doubt the ivy schools have a better student on average, but no way are the bottom of their class better than the top 20% of good public schools. I don't buy it.

I also bet my GPA would be a hell of a lot higher at Harvard if I took poli sci, because they just don't give out many C's. It still would have sucked, and it still would be near the bottom of the class but I bet it would be above 3.0.


Yeah I agree with all your points.. I know alot of people sneak into HYPS for various reasons, hence no way is the bottom of those classes better.

However, if you're not part of that bottom I do think you are better. My entire point was that the 50% kids at HYPS are as good as the 20% of top publics.

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crackberry
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Re: snob appeal of your undergraduate institution

Postby crackberry » Fri Jan 22, 2010 5:35 pm

rayiner wrote:You'll figure out as much once you get into law school. Any unfair competition is purely imagined. You'll be in a class with folks who mostly when to T10 undergrads, plus the folks who graduated magna from the top state schools (and the occasional exceptional person from lower T50 schools). A bunch of them will own your Ivy-league ass on finals, and then maybe you'll reconsider the idea that median at HYP should beat out top of the class at UVA, etc.

I never said anything about "unfair competition" or kids at state schools being somehow inferior to HYPS. That wasn't me. Watch yourself when you attribute that shit.

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Re: snob appeal of your undergraduate institution

Postby crackberry » Fri Jan 22, 2010 5:36 pm

Desert Fox wrote:You built a straw man argument, that neither me nor Ray ever supported. Nobody ever said GPA doesn't matter. It just matters a lot less than LSAT.

Like ray said, a 99% LSAT with 50% GPA gets into CCN, and a 50% LSAT and a 99% GPA goes to Florida Costal.

Look, if:
rayiner wrote:...bearing in mind how little GPA matters for law school admissions to begin with.

means "it's the second most important factor and definitely matters more than anything except your LSAT score," then I agree with you guys. It's just not how I read that statement.

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Re: snob appeal of your undergraduate institution

Postby Zapatero » Fri Jan 22, 2010 5:37 pm

Yikes!

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Re: snob appeal of your undergraduate institution

Postby sotomayor » Fri Jan 22, 2010 5:37 pm

gpa =/= intelligence. it doesnt take a rocket scientist to get a 3.5+. LSAT is king. Sorry for interrupting but you people are ridiculous.

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rayiner
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Re: snob appeal of your undergraduate institution

Postby rayiner » Fri Jan 22, 2010 5:41 pm

crackberry wrote:I agree that this thread has been derailed, but people have completely misinterpreted me and now think I'm trying to make the argument that GPA should matter more or as much as the LSAT or something.

Read my words people. If any of you think GPA doesn't matter, you're fucking morons. How many people in here have a sub-3.0 and have gotten into a T6 law school? THERE ARE GPA WALLS PEOPLE, JUST LIKE THERE ARE LSAT WALLS. Sure, the walls may be lower but that's not my goddamn point. Rayiner could have had a 180 and he never would have stood a chance at HYSCCN. That in itself proves my point.


If you're trying to attack the contention that GPA doesn't matter at all then your argument is just fine. Who is making that contention?

*sound of crickets chirping*

I said that the debate was pointless in light of the "how little GPA matters" in law school admissions. Which your statement does not refute. People on this thread are splitting hairs on how much of a boost people at top UGs should get beyond their inherent grade inflation, and GPA just doesn't matter enough for such small distinctions to be at all pertinent.

Look at it another way. Cull the applicant pool by the 170 LSAT floor at HYCC. Then compare the GPAs of the remaining applicants. The pool will be dominated by people from T10 undergrads. Whether or not a 3.8 at OSU is seen as equivalent to a 3.8 from HYPS just won't affect enough people to put the HYPS folks at a major disadvantage.

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Nom Sawyer
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Re: snob appeal of your undergraduate institution

Postby Nom Sawyer » Fri Jan 22, 2010 5:42 pm

I no longer have any idea what the three of you are talking about. :lol:

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Re: snob appeal of your undergraduate institution

Postby 09042014 » Fri Jan 22, 2010 5:42 pm

SolarWind wrote:
Yeah I agree with all your points.. I know alot of people sneak into HYPS for various reasons, hence no way is the bottom of those classes better.

However, if you're not part of that bottom I do think you are better. My entire point was that the 50% kids at HYPS are as good as the 20% of top publics.


I'd agree with that as well, but now you've git to look at where 50% for Harvard GPA is, and where 20% for top public's are.

At Harvard top 50% is around 3.5. At UIUC the top 20% is without a doubt below 3.6.

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Nom Sawyer
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Re: snob appeal of your undergraduate institution

Postby Nom Sawyer » Fri Jan 22, 2010 5:43 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
SolarWind wrote:
Yeah I agree with all your points.. I know alot of people sneak into HYPS for various reasons, hence no way is the bottom of those classes better.

However, if you're not part of that bottom I do think you are better. My entire point was that the 50% kids at HYPS are as good as the 20% of top publics.


I'd agree with that as well, but now you've git to look at where 50% for Harvard GPA is, and where 20% for top public's are.

At Harvard top 50% is around 3.5. At UIUC the top 20% is without a doubt below 3.6.


Oh ok that makes sense... for a lot of publics top 15% to 20% is still around 3.8, thats why I used it.

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Re: snob appeal of your undergraduate institution

Postby rayiner » Fri Jan 22, 2010 5:44 pm

SolarWind wrote:Ok so based on your numbers (i'm assuming LSAT = ACT) only the bottom 25% of Harvard scored worse than the top 32% of OSU. Thus the 50th percentile will clearly score better or equal to the top 10~15% of OSU. Also i think your numbers might be skewed by the fact that a lot of people only take SAT and don't take ACT..


There is a simple mathematical reason why this statement is quite wrong. You get a cookie if you can tell me what it is.

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rayiner
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Re: snob appeal of your undergraduate institution

Postby rayiner » Fri Jan 22, 2010 5:45 pm

SolarWind wrote:Oh ok that makes sense... for a lot of publics top 15% to 20% is still around 3.8, thats why I used it.


Um no. 3.8 is around top 5-10% at UVA and Berkeley and probably Michigan, I think.

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Nom Sawyer
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Re: snob appeal of your undergraduate institution

Postby Nom Sawyer » Fri Jan 22, 2010 5:46 pm

rayiner wrote:
SolarWind wrote:Ok so based on your numbers (i'm assuming LSAT = ACT) only the bottom 25% of Harvard scored worse than the top 32% of OSU. Thus the 50th percentile will clearly score better or equal to the top 10~15% of OSU. Also i think your numbers might be skewed by the fact that a lot of people only take SAT and don't take ACT..


There is a simple mathematical reason why this statement is quite wrong. You get a cookie if you can tell me what it is.


lol.. i'm a Math major rayiner.. i don't apply that stuff to bored thread musings. I know that the math doesnt support it, but if you look up statistics for Harvard admits and compare to OSU then what I stated is true. (sorry the Thus is kind of misleading there)

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Re: snob appeal of your undergraduate institution

Postby EijiMiyake » Fri Jan 22, 2010 5:46 pm

rayiner wrote:
crackberry wrote:I agree that this thread has been derailed, but people have completely misinterpreted me and now think I'm trying to make the argument that GPA should matter more or as much as the LSAT or something.

Read my words people. If any of you think GPA doesn't matter, you're fucking morons. How many people in here have a sub-3.0 and have gotten into a T6 law school? THERE ARE GPA WALLS PEOPLE, JUST LIKE THERE ARE LSAT WALLS. Sure, the walls may be lower but that's not my goddamn point. Rayiner could have had a 180 and he never would have stood a chance at HYSCCN. That in itself proves my point.


If you're trying to attack the contention that GPA doesn't matter at all then your argument is just fine. Who is making that contention?

*sound of crickets chirping*

I said that the debate was pointless in light of the "how little GPA matters" in law school admissions. Which your statement does not refute. People on this thread are splitting hairs on how much of a boost people at top UGs should get beyond their inherent grade inflation, and GPA just doesn't matter enough for such small distinctions to be at all pertinent.

Look at it another way. Cull the applicant pool by the 170 LSAT floor at HYCC. Then compare the GPAs of the remaining applicants. The pool will be dominated by people from T10 undergrads. Whether or not a 3.8 at OSU is seen as equivalent to a 3.8 from HYPS just won't affect enough people to put the HYPS folks at a major disadvantage
.


Also, if (and this is a big IF) you agree that the LSAT is an aptitude test, why would small differences in GPA matter? Law schools aren't trying to reward you for working hard in the past. All that really matters is that you're not a slacker and can handle a didactic environment.

Edit: I'm not actually sure what my point was anymore, but oh well.
Last edited by EijiMiyake on Fri Jan 22, 2010 5:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: snob appeal of your undergraduate institution

Postby 09042014 » Fri Jan 22, 2010 5:48 pm

SolarWind wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
SolarWind wrote:
Yeah I agree with all your points.. I know alot of people sneak into HYPS for various reasons, hence no way is the bottom of those classes better.

However, if you're not part of that bottom I do think you are better. My entire point was that the 50% kids at HYPS are as good as the 20% of top publics.


I'd agree with that as well, but now you've git to look at where 50% for Harvard GPA is, and where 20% for top public's are.

At Harvard top 50% is around 3.5. At UIUC the top 20% is without a doubt below 3.6.


Oh ok that makes sense... for a lot of publics top 15% to 20% is still around 3.8, thats why I used it.


I think at the UC's its like 4.25 for top 10%. I exaggerate, but only slightly.

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Nom Sawyer
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Re: snob appeal of your undergraduate institution

Postby Nom Sawyer » Fri Jan 22, 2010 5:49 pm

rayiner wrote:
SolarWind wrote:Oh ok that makes sense... for a lot of publics top 15% to 20% is still around 3.8, thats why I used it.


Um no. 3.8 is around top 5-10% at UVA and Berkeley and probably Michigan, I think.


Ah I was going off of UNC... i don't really know for all of em.

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Re: snob appeal of your undergraduate institution

Postby EijiMiyake » Fri Jan 22, 2010 5:50 pm

Desert Fox wrote:I think at the UC's its like 4.25 for top 10%. I exaggerate, but only slightly.



I was PBK with a 3.8 flat.

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Nom Sawyer
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Re: snob appeal of your undergraduate institution

Postby Nom Sawyer » Fri Jan 22, 2010 5:51 pm

EijiMiyake wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:I think at the UC's its like 4.25 for top 10%. I exaggerate, but only slightly.



I was PBK with a 3.8 flat.


UC as in canada? or cali?

And yes it does seem there are way too many Canadians floating around with 4.0+'s haha

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EijiMiyake
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Re: snob appeal of your undergraduate institution

Postby EijiMiyake » Fri Jan 22, 2010 5:51 pm

SolarWind wrote:
EijiMiyake wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:I think at the UC's its like 4.25 for top 10%. I exaggerate, but only slightly.



I was PBK with a 3.8 flat.


UC as in canada? or cali?

And yes it does seem there are way too many Canadians floating around with 4.0+'s haha



California.

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crackberry
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Re: snob appeal of your undergraduate institution

Postby crackberry » Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:00 pm

rayiner wrote:
crackberry wrote:I agree that this thread has been derailed, but people have completely misinterpreted me and now think I'm trying to make the argument that GPA should matter more or as much as the LSAT or something.

Read my words people. If any of you think GPA doesn't matter, you're fucking morons. How many people in here have a sub-3.0 and have gotten into a T6 law school? THERE ARE GPA WALLS PEOPLE, JUST LIKE THERE ARE LSAT WALLS. Sure, the walls may be lower but that's not my goddamn point. Rayiner could have had a 180 and he never would have stood a chance at HYSCCN. That in itself proves my point.


If you're trying to attack the contention that GPA doesn't matter at all then your argument is just fine. Who is making that contention?

*sound of crickets chirping*

I said that the debate was pointless in light of the "how little GPA matters" in law school admissions. Which your statement does not refute. People on this thread are splitting hairs on how much of a boost people at top UGs should get beyond their inherent grade inflation, and GPA just doesn't matter enough for such small distinctions to be at all pertinent.

Look at it another way. Cull the applicant pool by the 170 LSAT floor at HYCC. Then compare the GPAs of the remaining applicants. The pool will be dominated by people from T10 undergrads. Whether or not a 3.8 at OSU is seen as equivalent to a 3.8 from HYPS just won't affect enough people to put the HYPS folks at a major disadvantage.

If you had said "how little GPA matters in law school admissions vis-a-vis the LSAT," I would have agreed with you. That's not what you said.

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ConMan345
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Re: snob appeal of your undergraduate institution

Postby ConMan345 » Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:05 pm

rayiner wrote:You'll figure out as much once you get into law school. Any unfair competition is purely imagined. You'll be in a class with folks who mostly when to T10 undergrads, plus the folks who graduated magna from the top state schools (and the occasional exceptional person from lower T50 schools). A bunch of them will own your Ivy-league ass on finals, and then maybe you'll reconsider the idea that median at HYP should beat out top of the class at UVA, etc.


Ah, the classic every-man conquers the elitist snob; chest-thumping aggression meets detached condescension.


*shovels popcorn into mouth*

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Nom Sawyer
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Re: snob appeal of your undergraduate institution

Postby Nom Sawyer » Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:07 pm

ConMan345 wrote:
rayiner wrote:You'll figure out as much once you get into law school. Any unfair competition is purely imagined. You'll be in a class with folks who mostly when to T10 undergrads, plus the folks who graduated magna from the top state schools (and the occasional exceptional person from lower T50 schools). A bunch of them will own your Ivy-league ass on finals, and then maybe you'll reconsider the idea that median at HYP should beat out top of the class at UVA, etc.


Ah, the classic every-man conquers the elitist snob; chest-thumping aggression meets detached condescension.


*shovels popcorn into mouth*


your doing it wrong, use this:

Image

or this:

Image




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