Underrated programs

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missvik218
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Re: Underrated programs

Postby missvik218 » Tue Jan 19, 2010 5:47 pm

leckj wrote:
treeey86 wrote:many students want the option to go to ATL, DC or NYC hence why they choose Emory. Also, Emory is very generous with money. I would not be surprised to find many students chose Emory of UGa on the basis of scholarship money offered at Emory.

Really? Generous enough to make up the $50k difference per year? That seems astounding...

I think it's closer to $21k per year if you're OOS (including COL).

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PDaddy
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Re: Underrated programs

Postby PDaddy » Tue Jan 19, 2010 5:50 pm

Killacam18 wrote:So on this board I've read quite a few posts talking about programs that are overrated. For example alot of people tend to think WUSTL's ranking is inflated. I don't necessarily agree with that but if it is true then some schools must be underrated. Which would those be? Mainly talking about schools in the top 25/30. Just curious where some good deals might be.


Are we talking "underrated" or "under-ranked"? There is a difference.

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Cupidity
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Re: Underrated programs

Postby Cupidity » Tue Jan 19, 2010 5:53 pm

Florida will place its top 5% into 100k+ biglaw positions in Florida's smaller legal markets, so if you plan on being in the top, it's going to be great, if not....eeee.

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PDaddy
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Re: Underrated programs

Postby PDaddy » Tue Jan 19, 2010 5:59 pm

LifeinKodachrome wrote:I tend to gravitate towards the top school in any region with a decent market. U Washington, Colorado, etc. Of course this includes many of the T14s, but I'd personally rather go with say U Washington (top school in the pacific northwest) than Fordham (similar ranks, but vastly overshadowed by the other NYC schools)


U-Washington: They say it's the best school west of Chicago and north or Cali. It's just too bad there isn't much to compete with west of Chicago and north of Cali. But you're right. To work in Seattle, you've pretty much got to be from UW, SU or T-14.

09042014
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Re: Underrated programs

Postby 09042014 » Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:01 pm

PDaddy wrote:
LifeinKodachrome wrote:I tend to gravitate towards the top school in any region with a decent market. U Washington, Colorado, etc. Of course this includes many of the T14s, but I'd personally rather go with say U Washington (top school in the pacific northwest) than Fordham (similar ranks, but vastly overshadowed by the other NYC schools)


U-Washington: They say it's the best school west of Chicago and north or Cali. It's just too bad there isn't much to compete with west of Chicago and north of Cali. But you're right. To work in Seattle, you've pretty much got to be from UW, SU or T-14.


Minnesota is better.

savagecheater
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Re: Underrated programs

Postby savagecheater » Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:44 pm

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Last edited by savagecheater on Sun Jan 23, 2011 10:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

LSATfromNC
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Re: Underrated programs

Postby LSATfromNC » Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:53 pm

savagecheater wrote:my mother keeps talking about indiana and illinois because of their rankings - this thread is interesting.

why are they overrated?

They are new in town.

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whuts4lunch
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Re: Underrated programs

Postby whuts4lunch » Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:59 pm

Cupidity wrote:Florida will place its top 5% into 100k+ biglaw positions in Florida's smaller legal markets, so if you plan on being in the top, it's going to be great, if not....eeee.


not good enough just to plan to be at the top :wink: . I imagine far more than 5% of the class has that plan

UMiami is severely underrated IMO especially if you can go on the cheap. I live in SoFla and as far as I can tell, its the Miami grads that have the first dibs at the jobs down here and not the UF grads.

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stratocophic
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Re: Underrated programs

Postby stratocophic » Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:09 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
PDaddy wrote:
LifeinKodachrome wrote:I tend to gravitate towards the top school in any region with a decent market. U Washington, Colorado, etc. Of course this includes many of the T14s, but I'd personally rather go with say U Washington (top school in the pacific northwest) than Fordham (similar ranks, but vastly overshadowed by the other NYC schools)


U-Washington: They say it's the best school west of Chicago and north or Cali. It's just too bad there isn't much to compete with west of Chicago and north of Cali. But you're right. To work in Seattle, you've pretty much got to be from UW, SU or T-14.


Minnesota is better.


You get out of here with your fancy-schmancy geography

09042014
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Re: Underrated programs

Postby 09042014 » Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:22 pm

barrinmb wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
PDaddy wrote:
LifeinKodachrome wrote:I tend to gravitate towards the top school in any region with a decent market. U Washington, Colorado, etc. Of course this includes many of the T14s, but I'd personally rather go with say U Washington (top school in the pacific northwest) than Fordham (similar ranks, but vastly overshadowed by the other NYC schools)


U-Washington: They say it's the best school west of Chicago and north or Cali. It's just too bad there isn't much to compete with west of Chicago and north of Cali. But you're right. To work in Seattle, you've pretty much got to be from UW, SU or T-14.


Minnesota is better.


You get out of here with your fancy-schmancy geography


I had to think about it for a really long time.

scionb4
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Re: Underrated programs

Postby scionb4 » Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:32 pm

I think Michigan State University is easily the most underrated school in the country. There is no way in Hell it should still be a tier 3 considering how strong some of its programs are, most notably its trial advocacy program, how strong the faculty is, how awesome the facilities are, how high of LSAT/GPA medians are, and how good their job placement is. I'm not saying they're top 50 or anything, but definitely top 100. You can get a much better job coming out of Michigan, outside of the state of Michigan I add simply because Michigan State sports has so many fans nationwide, than you can at a lot of the schools ranked 75th or lower.

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Re: Underrated programs

Postby Scurredsitless1 » Tue Jan 19, 2010 8:01 pm

scionb4 wrote:I think Michigan State University is easily the most underrated school in the country. There is no way in Hell it should still be a tier 3 considering how strong some of its programs are, most notably its trial advocacy program, how strong the faculty is, how awesome the facilities are, how high of LSAT/GPA medians are, and how good their job placement is. I'm not saying they're top 50 or anything, but definitely top 100. You can get a much better job coming out of Michigan, outside of the state of Michigan I add simply because Michigan State sports has so many fans nationwide, than you can at a lot of the schools ranked 75th or lower.


While you make a good case, I think Michigan St is a strong regional school in a weak (and weakening) region.

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traehekat
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Re: Underrated programs

Postby traehekat » Tue Jan 19, 2010 9:38 pm

Man, a lot of Midwest hate in this thread! An overwhelming majority of you state UIUC, IUB, Iowa, and Minnesota are overrated, strange.

What schools are good for the Chicago, Indianapolis, Minneapolis, etc. markets then? Chicago, Northwestern, and Michigan? I think you all just hate cold weather and corn fields :P.

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traehekat
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Re: Underrated programs

Postby traehekat » Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:10 pm

jayzon wrote:
traehekat wrote:Man, a lot of Midwest hate in this thread! An overwhelming majority of you state UIUC, IUB, Iowa, and Minnesota are overrated, strange.

What schools are good for the Chicago, Indianapolis, Minneapolis, etc. markets then? Chicago, Northwestern, and Michigan? I think you all just hate cold weather and corn fields :P.


Most people are coming from a "national reach" sort of criteria, in which case many of those schools are overrated (probably not Minnesota, but whatever). If you want national mobility, I'd take Notre Dame over any Big 10 school.

If you like the Midwest, however, all of these schools are high quality, and in-state tuition at any of these schools kicks the crap out of places like Notre Dame.


Well if you are coming from that approach, I think most people, on here at least, will say any school other than HYSCCN is overrated. And then how is a school underrated? It's not like any school ranked lower than UIUC, IUB, Iowa, etc. has more national pull.

Notre Dame is, of course, an exception. I would take ND over any Big 10 school, as well.

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jeeptiger09
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Re: Underrated programs

Postby jeeptiger09 » Tue Jan 19, 2010 11:04 pm

scionb4 wrote:I think Michigan State University is easily the most underrated school in the country. There is no way in Hell it should still be a tier 3 considering how strong some of its programs are, most notably its trial advocacy program, how strong the faculty is, how awesome the facilities are, how high of LSAT/GPA medians are, and how good their job placement is. I'm not saying they're top 50 or anything, but definitely top 100. You can get a much better job coming out of Michigan, outside of the state of Michigan I add simply because Michigan State sports has so many fans nationwide, than you can at a lot of the schools ranked 75th or lower.


I disagree, MSU law is a decent regional school (as someone mentioned) in a weak region. I think MSU's high attrition rate, outrageous sticker price (although they are generous with $$), high acceptance rate, low yield and low selectivity, and low employment rate are all weak points keeping it in T3. Here's MSU compared to three lower ranked top 100 schools (IU-I, Marquette, and SLU):

-section size: SLU-80, Marq-91, MSU-95, IUI-101
-first year JD attrition: Marq-4.5%, IUI-6%, SLU 7.4%, MSU-12.6%,
-acceptance rate: Marq 38%, IUI 39%, SLU 45%, MSU 55%
-median gpa: SLU 3.46, IUI 3.44, Marq 3.4, MSU 3.32
-median lsat: Marq 157, IUI 156, MSU 155, SLU 155
-employment rate: IUI 96.4%, Marq 95.8%, SLU 92.3%, MSU 87.9%

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: Underrated programs

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:37 am

I haven't looked at any prior posts but here goes:

SEVERELY UNDERRATED:
Case Western Reserve (the 5th best private school in the midwest - its portability may actually be better than Notre Dame)
University of Miami (severely underrated by people that have never been to FL - it will one day probably be FL's Emory)

SLIGHTLY UNDERRATED:
Rutgers - Newark (they need to be in the T50)
University of Florida (they need to consistently be in the T50)
University of Cal - Hastings (they would be in a better spot, but they didn't report their data to US News one year - there are articles about it)

SLIGHTLY OVERRATED:
Yeshiva University (Cardozo) (it's not a bad school, it's just that beyond Fordham - NY really doesn't need another school and if you have the numbers for Cardozo, you should go somewhere else)
University of Illinois (it's in the worst logical position out of any of the public midwestern law programs - feeds into one over-saturated market in which it is the about the 4th or 5th best school)
Washington University (St. Louis) (it's a strong midwestern school, but it truly isn't quite up to the reputation of Notre Dame yet)

SEVERELY OVERRATED:
Indiana - Bloomington (self explanatory)
University of Alabama (self explanatory)

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Zojirushi
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Re: Underrated programs

Postby Zojirushi » Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:50 am

Aberzombie1892 wrote:I haven't looked at any prior posts but here goes:

SEVERELY UNDERRATED:
Case Western Reserve (the 5th best private school in the midwest - its portability may actually be better than Notre Dame)
University of Miami (severely underrated by people that have never been to FL - it will one day probably be FL's Emory)

SLIGHTLY UNDERRATED:
Rutgers - Newark (they need to be in the T50)
University of Florida (they need to consistently be in the T50)
University of Cal - Hastings (they would be in a better spot, but they didn't report their data to US News one year - there are articles about it)

SLIGHTLY OVERRATED:
Yeshiva University (Cardozo) (it's not a bad school, it's just that beyond Fordham - NY really doesn't need another school and if you have the numbers for Cardozo, you should go somewhere else)
University of Illinois (it's in the worst logical position out of any of the public midwestern law programs - feeds into one over-saturated market in which it is the about the 4th or 5th best school)
Washington University (St. Louis) (it's a strong midwestern school, but it truly isn't quite up to the reputation of Notre Dame yet)

SEVERELY OVERRATED:
Indiana - Bloomington (self explanatory)
University of Alabama (self explanatory)
Tulane (self explanatory)

:shock:

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: Underrated programs

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:54 am

Zojirushi wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:I haven't looked at any prior posts but here goes:

SEVERELY UNDERRATED:
Case Western Reserve (the 5th best private school in the midwest - its portability may actually be better than Notre Dame)
University of Miami (severely underrated by people that have never been to FL - it will one day probably be FL's Emory)

SLIGHTLY UNDERRATED:
Rutgers - Newark (they need to be in the T50)
University of Florida (they need to consistently be in the T50)
University of Cal - Hastings (they would be in a better spot, but they didn't report their data to US News one year - there are articles about it)

SLIGHTLY OVERRATED:
Yeshiva University (Cardozo) (it's not a bad school, it's just that beyond Fordham - NY really doesn't need another school and if you have the numbers for Cardozo, you should go somewhere else)
University of Illinois (it's in the worst logical position out of any of the public midwestern law programs - feeds into one over-saturated market in which it is the about the 4th or 5th best school)
Washington University (St. Louis) (it's a strong midwestern school, but it truly isn't quite up to the reputation of Notre Dame yet)

SEVERELY OVERRATED:
Indiana - Bloomington (self explanatory)
University of Alabama (self explanatory)
Tulane (self explanatory)

:shock:


You must go to either IUB or UA, no?

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General Tso
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Re: Underrated programs

Postby General Tso » Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:56 am

I thought Aberzombie was a Tulane troll? Now he's saying it's severely overrated???

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: Underrated programs

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:59 am

swheat wrote:I thought Aberzombie was a Tulane troll? Now he's saying it's severely overrated???


Re-read my initial post on the bottom of page 4.

Zojirushi added Tulane at the bottom of my post.

I must say it was pretty creative.

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Re: Underrated programs

Postby 09042014 » Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:59 am

Aberzombie1892 wrote:I haven't looked at any prior posts but here goes:

SEVERELY UNDERRATED:
Case Western Reserve (the 5th best private school in the midwest - its portability may actually be better than Notre Dame)
University of Miami (severely underrated by people that have never been to FL - it will one day probably be FL's Emory)

SLIGHTLY UNDERRATED:
Rutgers - Newark (they need to be in the T50)
University of Florida (they need to consistently be in the T50)
University of Cal - Hastings (they would be in a better spot, but they didn't report their data to US News one year - there are articles about it)

SLIGHTLY OVERRATED:
Yeshiva University (Cardozo) (it's not a bad school, it's just that beyond Fordham - NY really doesn't need another school and if you have the numbers for Cardozo, you should go somewhere else)
University of Illinois (it's in the worst logical position out of any of the public midwestern law programs - feeds into one over-saturated market in which it is the about the 4th or 5th best school)
Washington University (St. Louis) (it's a strong midwestern school, but it truly isn't quite up to the reputation of Notre Dame yet)

SEVERELY OVERRATED:
Indiana - Bloomington (self explanatory)
University of Alabama (self explanatory)


I think UIUC feeding into Chicago is an advantage rather than a disadvantage. It holds it own considering it is up against Chicago, NU and Michigan. Outplaces ND, Minn, and WUSTL in Chicago placement. Its the Fordham of Chicago. Though I think 23 is about where it should be. WUSTL and ND should swap places, and Minnesota should be top 30 but not 20.
Last edited by 09042014 on Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Zojirushi
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Re: Underrated programs

Postby Zojirushi » Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:02 am

swheat wrote:I thought Aberzombie was a Tulane troll?

This. Sorry Aberzombie, I just couldn't resist. I mostly agree with what you said.

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: Underrated programs

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:05 am

Desert Fox wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:I haven't looked at any prior posts but here goes:

SEVERELY UNDERRATED:
Case Western Reserve (the 5th best private school in the midwest - its portability may actually be better than Notre Dame)
University of Miami (severely underrated by people that have never been to FL - it will one day probably be FL's Emory)

SLIGHTLY UNDERRATED:
Rutgers - Newark (they need to be in the T50)
University of Florida (they need to consistently be in the T50)
University of Cal - Hastings (they would be in a better spot, but they didn't report their data to US News one year - there are articles about it)

SLIGHTLY OVERRATED:
Yeshiva University (Cardozo) (it's not a bad school, it's just that beyond Fordham - NY really doesn't need another school and if you have the numbers for Cardozo, you should go somewhere else)
University of Illinois (it's in the worst logical position out of any of the public midwestern law programs - feeds into one over-saturated market in which it is the about the 4th or 5th best school)
Washington University (St. Louis) (it's a strong midwestern school, but it truly isn't quite up to the reputation of Notre Dame yet)

SEVERELY OVERRATED:
Indiana - Bloomington (self explanatory)
University of Alabama (self explanatory)


I think UIUC feeding into Chicago is an advantage rather than a disadvantage. It holds it own against Chicago, NU and Michigan. Outplaces ND, Minn, and WUSTL in Chicago placement. Its the Fordham of Chicago. Though I think 23 is about where it should be. WUSTL and ND should swap places, and Minnesota should be top 30 but not 20.


Yay - intelligent discussion.

Well...I know what you mean by it could possibly be an advantage - but still - if the firms stop hiring in Chicago, where would UIUC graduates go? I doubt they would hold their own against IUB/Notre Dame, Minnesota, Ohio State/Case Western, Wisconsin, etc. in their own states (so if their grades were low, they could still find a job with lesser T14ish competition in their home states). I can agree with the Fordham analogy. Well...Minnesota and Iowa have traditionally been the top 2 midwestern public programs (Iowa has actually been pretty portable in and out of the midwest and Minnestoa, well, I'm really not sure). I would say Minnesita and Iowa should switch.

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: Underrated programs

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:08 am

Zojirushi wrote:
swheat wrote:I thought Aberzombie was a Tulane troll?

This. Sorry Aberzombie, I just couldn't resist. I mostly agree with what you said.


Haha it's fine.

I was wondering if that was going to happen -

in fact I was about to post a reply but then I thought, no one who is aware of me is going to believe that.

I thought wrong - but it was still humorous.

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PDaddy
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Re: Underrated programs

Postby PDaddy » Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:09 am

Desert Fox wrote:
PDaddy wrote:
LifeinKodachrome wrote:I tend to gravitate towards the top school in any region with a decent market. U Washington, Colorado, etc. Of course this includes many of the T14s, but I'd personally rather go with say U Washington (top school in the pacific northwest) than Fordham (similar ranks, but vastly overshadowed by the other NYC schools)


U-Washington: They say it's the best school west of Chicago and north or Cali. It's just too bad there isn't much to compete with west of Chicago and north of Cali. But you're right. To work in Seattle, you've pretty much got to be from UW, SU or T-14.


Minnesota is better.


That can certainly be argued, but many people question that. Again, are we speaking of underrated or under-ranked? There's a difference, as I said in my earlier post. In fact, U-Wash was once the #23 school in USNWR.

I think it fell because people weren't leaving Seattle when all of the Wachtell's and Cravaths were recruiting there. The employment dynamic fell off and that affected its rankings. U-Washington was once a very well regarded law school in the elite law firm circles, even in NY. But firms found out that no one wanted to leave (ala southern California law grads), so they stopped going there.

But does that mean U-Minn is a better school and should be higher ranked? I dunno. Minnesota has the Twin Cities and, to a lesser degree, Chicago market, but that's just luck. Is it a better school on the inside? I dunno.

I think they are two really good state schools.




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