Underrated programs

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09042014
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Re: Underrated programs

Postby 09042014 » Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:14 am

Aberzombie1892 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:I haven't looked at any prior posts but here goes:

SEVERELY UNDERRATED:
Case Western Reserve (the 5th best private school in the midwest - its portability may actually be better than Notre Dame)
University of Miami (severely underrated by people that have never been to FL - it will one day probably be FL's Emory)

SLIGHTLY UNDERRATED:
Rutgers - Newark (they need to be in the T50)
University of Florida (they need to consistently be in the T50)
University of Cal - Hastings (they would be in a better spot, but they didn't report their data to US News one year - there are articles about it)

SLIGHTLY OVERRATED:
Yeshiva University (Cardozo) (it's not a bad school, it's just that beyond Fordham - NY really doesn't need another school and if you have the numbers for Cardozo, you should go somewhere else)
University of Illinois (it's in the worst logical position out of any of the public midwestern law programs - feeds into one over-saturated market in which it is the about the 4th or 5th best school)
Washington University (St. Louis) (it's a strong midwestern school, but it truly isn't quite up to the reputation of Notre Dame yet)

SEVERELY OVERRATED:
Indiana - Bloomington (self explanatory)
University of Alabama (self explanatory)


I think UIUC feeding into Chicago is an advantage rather than a disadvantage. It holds it own against Chicago, NU and Michigan. Outplaces ND, Minn, and WUSTL in Chicago placement. Its the Fordham of Chicago. Though I think 23 is about where it should be. WUSTL and ND should swap places, and Minnesota should be top 30 but not 20.


Yay - intelligent discussion.

Well...I know what you mean by it could possibly be an advantage - but still - if the firms stop hiring in Chicago, where would UIUC graduates go? I doubt they would hold their own against IUB/Notre Dame, Minnesota, Ohio State/Case Western, Wisconsin, etc. in their own states (so if their grades were low, they could still find a job with lesser T14ish competition in their home states). I can agree with the Fordham analogy. Well...Minnesota and Iowa have traditionally been the top 2 midwestern public programs (Iowa has actually been pretty portable in and out of the midwest and Minnestoa, well, I'm really not sure). I would say Minnesita and Iowa should switch.


I'll agree that UIUC can't compete with the other schools on their home turf, but I think their home turf is surprisingly small. Indiana and Iowa home markets are terribly small. Madison, and Milwaukee are tough as well. I don't know how the legal market in Minneapolis is doing. It wouldn't shock me if UMn was doing better this year than UIUC.

But I think we may have to wait for hiring data to come out. UIUC and ND were bloodbaths. I'm guessing Indiana and Iowa were too.

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: Underrated programs

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:32 am

Desert Fox wrote:
I'll agree that UIUC can't compete with the other schools on their home turf, but I think their home turf is surprisingly small. Indiana and Iowa home markets are terribly small. Madison, and Milwaukee are tough as well. I don't know how the legal market in Minneapolis is doing. It wouldn't shock me if UMn was doing better this year than UIUC.

But I think we may have to wait for hiring data to come out. UIUC and ND were bloodbaths. I'm guessing Indiana and Iowa were too.


Yeah all of those quotes were getting out of hand.

True those markets are small (but at least it's something).

I can imagine most schools outside the T14 were in bad shape - especially schools with little to no home market (i.e. Vanderbilt, Notre Dame, Washington U).

I know what I'm about to say sounds like trolling (and that is what it very well may be), but the fact that Louisiana is an insulated market is actually making the Spring OCI at Tulane actually worthwhile.

Every day the CDO adds a few more employers to the list with the current total being 21 with a total projected turn out of 40. While 40 may not be much, it beats UF's 1 (a 1L mentioned it in a thread) and Fordham's 8 (also mentioned in a thread). Of course Fordham students will be attending NYU's job fair, but that is almost like Loyola-New Orleans students attending a Tulane job fair.

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chadwick218
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Re: Underrated programs

Postby chadwick218 » Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:37 am

anthonyc350 wrote:overrated: Iowa, Indiana, American, Cardozo, Connecticut

underrated: USD, FSU, Florida, tOSU, Missouri, Nebraska, UNC


As much as I want to agree with you having grown up in Missouri and having Tiger Roots, Missour's placement statistics are honestly abysmal!

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rayiner
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Re: Underrated programs

Postby rayiner » Wed Jan 20, 2010 2:00 am

Aberzombie1892 wrote:Every day the CDO adds a few more employers to the list with the current total being 21 with a total projected turn out of 40. While 40 may not be much, it beats UF's 1 (a 1L mentioned it in a thread) and Fordham's 8 (also mentioned in a thread). Of course Fordham students will be attending NYU's job fair, but that is almost like Loyola-New Orleans students attending a Tulane job fair.


That beats a lot of T14's from what I can tell. CLS has like a dozen according to XOXO.

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najumobi
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Re: Underrated programs

Postby najumobi » Wed Jan 20, 2010 2:05 am

the SMU network in dallas is quite strong. i think their placement in dallas outstrips their usnews rank of 49, even with 70% of UT grads electing to stay in Texas (pre-ITE). not sure how they'll stack up against a sizeable portion of the additional 130 or so UT who will now have trouble placing in NY, DC, and LA due to the deterioration of biglaw and decide to stay in-state after law school. before ITE, they concentrated and were very successful in placing their grads into the private sector ( only 12% public sector placement). after adjusting for the percentage of graduates in the private sector who reported their salary (86%), 56% of their grads earned at least 72.5k/year. after taking public sector placement into consideration, it comes to at least 68% of the class making 54k/year.

this isn't bad considering that 80% of their students receive some kind of grant aid with a little over 1/3 of these students receiving at least half-tuition aid. also, the median indebtness of their students (not to be confused with their much more affluent undergrad student body) is just 80k. oh yeah, and can't forget very low COL of Dallas and texas in general....30% cheaper than hoboken, nj and bethesda, md; 20% cheaper than chicago.

lawschooliseasy
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Re: Underrated programs

Postby lawschooliseasy » Wed Jan 20, 2010 2:21 am

oberlin08 wrote:COOLEY.



lol..


Yeah, I'm really happy for you Cooley and imma let you finish, but I just wanna say that Emory has one of the best law programs of ALL TIME!

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jeeptiger09
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Re: Underrated programs

Postby jeeptiger09 » Wed Jan 20, 2010 2:22 am

Overrated: American, UConn, Cardozo, Kentucky, Penn State, Mizzou

Underrated: UNC, Florida, Tennessee, Miami

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: Underrated programs

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:50 am

rayiner wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:Every day the CDO adds a few more employers to the list with the current total being 21 with a total projected turn out of 40. While 40 may not be much, it beats UF's 1 (a 1L mentioned it in a thread) and Fordham's 8 (also mentioned in a thread). Of course Fordham students will be attending NYU's job fair, but that is almost like Loyola-New Orleans students attending a Tulane job fair.


That beats a lot of T14's from what I can tell. CLS has like a dozen according to XOXO.


Really? That is really surprising. I would have figured that many of the T14's would have had more than 12 or so employers show up.

You go to Northwestern, right? How are they doing?

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vandalvideo
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Re: Underrated programs

Postby vandalvideo » Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:02 am

jeeptiger09 wrote:Overrated: American, UConn, Cardozo, Kentucky, Penn State, Mizzou

Underrated: UNC, Florida, Tennessee, Miami



Out of curiosity, why do you think Tennessee is underrated, and by how much?

Rawlsian
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Re: Underrated programs

Postby Rawlsian » Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:07 am

jayzon wrote:Most people are coming from a "national reach" sort of criteria, in which case many of those schools are overrated (probably not Minnesota, but whatever). If you want national mobility, I'd take Notre Dame over any Big 10 school.


What about Northwestern?

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Re: Underrated programs

Postby Slimpee » Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:31 am

Rawlsian wrote:
jayzon wrote:Most people are coming from a "national reach" sort of criteria, in which case many of those schools are overrated (probably not Minnesota, but whatever). If you want national mobility, I'd take Notre Dame over any Big 10 school.


What about Northwestern?


What about Michigan?

Rawlsian
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Re: Underrated programs

Postby Rawlsian » Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:39 am

Slimpee wrote:
Rawlsian wrote:
jayzon wrote:Most people are coming from a "national reach" sort of criteria, in which case many of those schools are overrated (probably not Minnesota, but whatever). If you want national mobility, I'd take Notre Dame over any Big 10 school.


What about Northwestern?


What about Michigan?


Indeed.

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najumobi
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Re: Underrated programs

Postby najumobi » Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:04 am

Aberzombie1892 wrote:True those markets are small (but at least it's something).

I can imagine most schools outside the T14 were in bad shape - especially schools with little to no home market (i.e. Vanderbilt, Notre Dame, Washington U).

i have actually been reading on TSL that vandy outperformed cornell and georgetown in 2L SA placement. i think this is probably due to the fact that vandy is more connected to secondary and tertiary markets throughout the south, while georgetown and cornell concentrates heavily on NYC.

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rayiner
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Re: Underrated programs

Postby rayiner » Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:05 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:
rayiner wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:Every day the CDO adds a few more employers to the list with the current total being 21 with a total projected turn out of 40. While 40 may not be much, it beats UF's 1 (a 1L mentioned it in a thread) and Fordham's 8 (also mentioned in a thread). Of course Fordham students will be attending NYU's job fair, but that is almost like Loyola-New Orleans students attending a Tulane job fair.


That beats a lot of T14's from what I can tell. CLS has like a dozen according to XOXO.


Really? That is really surprising. I would have figured that many of the T14's would have had more than 12 or so employers show up.

You go to Northwestern, right? How are they doing?


Our Spring OCI has 8 employers at the moment. I think all the T14 (besides maybe HYS) are pretty bad. Then again, even in previous years I don't think there were more than 15 or so employers at spring OCI, and at that time something like 1/4 of our class got 1L jobs at NALP firms.

gmichaelbluth
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Re: Underrated programs

Postby gmichaelbluth » Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:30 pm

Space_Cowboy wrote:(http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... judge.html)

I think a school scoring high in the rankings but not being comparably well regarded by lawyers/judges qualifies as being overrated.

BU, IUB, Alabama and Fordham seem to qualify.


On the flip side of this, UNC's reputation ranking is much higher than its overall ranking (17 v. 30). Further evidence that it's underrated.

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jeeptiger09
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Re: Underrated programs

Postby jeeptiger09 » Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:40 pm

vandalvideo wrote:Out of curiosity, why do you think Tennessee is underrated, and by how much?


Well it's a pretty common belief that when you get down into the T2 range, all of the schools become primarily regional. Tennessee, when compared to its competition in USNWR rankings (Kentucky, Houston, Pepperdine, Case, ASU) is probably in better shape than most of those schools, IMO. UTK is a statewide school (which can't be said of all its competition). Albeit, there is Vanderbilt, but most of its grads head elsewhere (78% leave TN). UT's clinicals have a great reputation as well. Here's a numeric comparison:

1L section size: UT 51, ASU 53, UK 63, Pepp 75, UH 80, Case 83
1L JD attrition: UT .6%, UH 2%, UK 4%, UH 7.4%, Pepp 8.5%, Case 13.7%
Median GPA: UK 3.63, Pepp 3.59, ASU 3.58, UT 3.53, Case 3.5, UH 3.45
Median LSAT: Pepp/UH 161, UK 160, UT/ASU 159, Case 158
9 mos. employment rate: UT/UK/UH 97%, Case/ASU 95%, Pepp 92%
Bar passage: UK/UH 90%, UT 89%, ASU 84%, Pepp 77%, Case 76%

$.02

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fulkersonr1
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Re: Underrated programs

Postby fulkersonr1 » Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:55 pm

jeeptiger09 wrote:
vandalvideo wrote:Out of curiosity, why do you think Tennessee is underrated, and by how much?


Well it's a pretty common belief that when you get down into the T2 range, all of the schools become primarily regional. Tennessee, when compared to its competition in USNWR rankings (Kentucky, Houston, Pepperdine, Case, ASU) is probably in better shape than most of those schools, IMO. UTK is a statewide school (which can't be said of all its competition). Albeit, there is Vanderbilt, but most of its grads head elsewhere (78% leave TN). UT's clinicals have a great reputation as well. Here's a numeric comparison:

1L section size: UT 51, ASU 53, UK 63, Pepp 75, UH 80, Case 83
1L JD attrition: UT .6%, UH 2%, UK 4%, UH 7.4%, Pepp 8.5%, Case 13.7%
Median GPA: UK 3.63, Pepp 3.59, ASU 3.58, UT 3.53, Case 3.5, UH 3.45
Median LSAT: Pepp/UH 161, UK 160, UT/ASU 159, Case 158
9 mos. employment rate: UT/UK/UH 97%, Case/ASU 95%, Pepp 92%
Bar passage: UK/UH 90%, UT 89%, ASU 84%, Pepp 77%, Case 76%

$.02


I am in no way a UK supporter or proponent but as a Kentuckian find it hard to believe it is overrated. UK is the best school for those that want to work in KY. Outside KY a UK degree does not mean a whole lot. UK is not extremely well rated right now so I would say its rated close to correctly.

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jeeptiger09
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Re: Underrated programs

Postby jeeptiger09 » Wed Jan 20, 2010 2:11 pm

fulkersonr1 wrote:I am in no way a UK supporter or proponent but as a Kentuckian find it hard to believe it is overrated. UK is the best school for those that want to work in KY. Outside KY a UK degree does not mean a whole lot. UK is not extremely well rated right now so I would say its rated close to correctly.


It's probably close to where it should be, but you got it absolutely right: outside of the commonwealth, UK doesn't mean a lot. Same could be said for most state schools on par. But consider the fact that outside of Louisville and Lex, there really isn't anything as far as markets for biglaw. UT has Nashville, Memphis (albeit a very small placement), Chattanooga (also lower placement) and Knoxville. UF and FSU have Tallahassee, Orlando, Tampa, Miami, and Jacksonville.

Also, have you ever been to UK's law school? Facilities are bad, and that's an understatement. I don't think UK is way overrated, but I don't think it is on par with UT and UF.

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tinman
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Re: Underrated programs

Postby tinman » Wed Jan 20, 2010 2:32 pm

I think Northwestern is by far the most underrated school in the T14. People know it's a solid school, but it often gets ignored. I think it school be rated top ten.

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chadwick218
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Re: Underrated programs

Postby chadwick218 » Wed Jan 20, 2010 2:50 pm

tinman wrote:I think Northwestern is by far the most underrated school in the T14. People know it's a solid school, but it often gets ignored. I think it school be rated top ten.


Well, it is rated in the top 10 (it's just now tied with UVA and Duke). In the prior year, we were #9. As far as being the most underrated school in the T14, I just don't know. Perhaps only underrated in terms of lay prestige, but then it again it is not an ivy or a school with deeply rooted traditions like Michigan and UVA.

doubled99
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Re: Underrated programs

Postby doubled99 » Wed Jan 20, 2010 2:57 pm

Would anyone consider Nebraska underrated? It is ranked in the T3...

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chadwick218
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Re: Underrated programs

Postby chadwick218 » Wed Jan 20, 2010 3:01 pm

doubled99 wrote:Would anyone consider Nebraska underrated? It is ranked in the T3...


I just don't believe that "underrated" is the correct term. At the end of the day, Nebraska is a state school that places almost exclusively in the State of Nebraska and a couple of surrounding states. They really don't feed into any major cities. They are what they are!

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tinman
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Re: Underrated programs

Postby tinman » Wed Jan 20, 2010 3:03 pm

chadwick218 wrote:
tinman wrote:I think Northwestern is by far the most underrated school in the T14. People know it's a solid school, but it often gets ignored. I think it school be rated top ten.


Well, it is rated in the top 10 (it's just now tied with UVA and Duke). In the prior year, we were #9. As far as being the most underrated school in the T14, I just don't know. Perhaps only underrated in terms of lay prestige, but then it again it is not an ivy or a school with deeply rooted traditions like Michigan and UVA.


yes, I suppose it's the lay prestige I am reacting too. I think it applies the undergrad as well. Northwestern undergrad is amazing, rated consistently higher than UVA and Mich and some Ivies. I just feel like Northwestern in general doesn't get the respect it deserves.

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robin600
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Re: Underrated programs

Postby robin600 » Wed Jan 20, 2010 3:05 pm

+1 on WI, great school, especially for those interested in Criminal law or public interest. They have a great district attorney's office placement rate in many major cities throughout the midwest and even some in DC.

Slimpee
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Re: Underrated programs

Postby Slimpee » Wed Jan 20, 2010 3:12 pm

doubled99 wrote:Would anyone consider Nebraska underrated? It is ranked in the T3...


This year TTT but there's a good chance they'll be back in the 70's or high-60's this year or next year.

The TTT ranking was the result of a clerical error.




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