Cooley PEP program

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Richie Tenenbaum
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Re: Cooley PEP program

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Thu Feb 04, 2010 5:26 pm

:|
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ATOIsp07
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Re: Cooley PEP program

Postby ATOIsp07 » Thu Feb 04, 2010 5:26 pm

Oli wrote:
ATOIsp07 wrote:
whataboutbahb wrote:I agree elitism=lame. But unrealistic optimism is just as bad. Like it or not, prestige matters in the legal world.


Not to the extent of, "you can't land big law unless you go to HYS and are in the top 10%" or "you have a 3.5/165? You're going to have to settle for a T30". Yes, where you go to school can matter but I feel that people on this board, especially the wet-behind-the-ears 0Ls, take it too far in judging/ridiculing people's lives. Who are they to say who can achieve what?

I'm also fairly certain that, after your first job, a law school's name really doesn't matter.


I'll bet it does.



How? After school, people are going to be found out, whether you attended HYS or Cooley. The best overall measure of how you'll be judged as an individual attorney is through your workplace experience (through references, etc.). Plus, a big part of success in the business is through networking, regardless of whether others know your school or not.

Of course, people will be more familiar with Yale than GW and with GW more than Cooley. But that doesn't mean that a Cooley grad who busts ass and grinds in employment after LS couldn't have a successful career.

So, I stand by my opinion that, after your first job, a school's name becomes less and less important. Your name on a certain diploma can't carry you around your whole life, contrary to what you and other number whores would think.

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ATOIsp07
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Re: Cooley PEP program

Postby ATOIsp07 » Thu Feb 04, 2010 5:28 pm

whataboutbahb wrote:
ATOIsp07 wrote:
whataboutbahb wrote:I agree elitism=lame. But unrealistic optimism is just as bad. Like it or not, prestige matters in the legal world.


Not to the extent of, "you can't land big law unless you go to HYS and are in the top 10%" or "you have a 3.5/165? You're going to have to settle for a T30". Yes, where you go to school can matter but I feel that people on this board, especially the wet-behind-the-ears 0Ls, take it too far in judging/ridiculing people's lives. Who are they to say who can achieve what?

I'm also fairly certain that, after your first job, a law school's name really doesn't matter.


Do you understand how important your first job can be? Especially if you want biglaw?



That's the point, bab, if you do well in your first job, regardless of where you came from, you will see upward mobility. All a degree is good for really is a starting point. Not everyone can start out at the top (i.e.-HYS).

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SanBun
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Re: Cooley PEP program

Postby SanBun » Thu Feb 04, 2010 5:32 pm

ATOIsp07 wrote:
Oli wrote:
ATOIsp07 wrote:
whataboutbahb wrote:I agree elitism=lame. But unrealistic optimism is just as bad. Like it or not, prestige matters in the legal world.


Not to the extent of, "you can't land big law unless you go to HYS and are in the top 10%" or "you have a 3.5/165? You're going to have to settle for a T30". Yes, where you go to school can matter but I feel that people on this board, especially the wet-behind-the-ears 0Ls, take it too far in judging/ridiculing people's lives. Who are they to say who can achieve what?

I'm also fairly certain that, after your first job, a law school's name really doesn't matter.


I'll bet it does.



How? After school, people are going to be found out, whether you attended HYS or Cooley. The best overall measure of how you'll be judged as an individual attorney is through your workplace experience (through references, etc.). Plus, a big part of success in the business is through networking, regardless of whether others know your school or not.

Of course, people will be more familiar with Yale than GW and with GW more than Cooley. But that doesn't mean that a Cooley grad who busts ass and grinds in employment after LS couldn't have a successful career.

So, I stand by my opinion that, after your first job, a school's name becomes less and less important. Your name on a certain diploma can't carry you around your whole life, contrary to what you and other number whores would think.


Absolutely true. I know two recruiters at 1000+ Chicago based firm who told me the exact same thing, as did a partner who's been at the company for over 20 years. School only matters to a certain extent for the first job, but after that it's all about what you do in the real world.
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Richie Tenenbaum
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Re: Cooley PEP program

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Thu Feb 04, 2010 5:34 pm

:idea:
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moonmaster3
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Re: Cooley PEP program

Postby moonmaster3 » Thu Feb 04, 2010 5:35 pm

I'm sorry but attending what is arguably the worst law school in America will carry a stigma for the rest of your professional career.

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ATOIsp07
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Re: Cooley PEP program

Postby ATOIsp07 » Thu Feb 04, 2010 5:39 pm

whataboutbahb wrote:The current Biglaw model doesn't operate that way, sorry. People typically don't move up into Biglaw after busting ass in shitlaw for a few years.


But you're making the fallible assumption that everyone goes to law school for BIGLAW. Not everyone is in it to just cash a 6-figure salary. Some people are interested in public interest and others may not even want to use their JDs for a legal career. either way, you're making it seem like BIGLAW or bust for a law career. Very sad. I'm afraid to see what happens to your type when BIGLAW salaries actually start decreasing, mirroring the economic climate.

And, on the same token, who are you to say that BIGLAW isn't possible for anyone coming from a non-BIGLAW job (or "shitlaw" as you called it)? Are you attending HYS? Or even a T14? what about a T1?

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Richie Tenenbaum
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Re: Cooley PEP program

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Thu Feb 04, 2010 5:39 pm

:!:
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Richie Tenenbaum
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Re: Cooley PEP program

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Thu Feb 04, 2010 5:58 pm

:mrgreen:
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ATOIsp07
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Re: Cooley PEP program

Postby ATOIsp07 » Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:19 pm

I'm going to put it like this and then, hopefully, this thread can die:
Going to HYS doesn't guarantee you success as a lawyer. Going to Cooley doesn't guarantee you failure as a lawyer.

A degree from HYS or a T14 or T1 can certainly get you that coveted first job. But once you're employed, you're basically on your own in making your own name in the business. If you're a mediocre/lousy attorney, your diploma issued from HYS can't save you.

A degree from a Cooley or a Thomas Jefferson may get you out to a mediocre/unenviable first job. But, once you're employed, if you're worth your salt as an attorney, you can certainly make upward mobility as a lawyer and can certainly make money in the process.

My two pennies.

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darknightbegins
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Re: Cooley PEP program

Postby darknightbegins » Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:21 pm

moonmaster3 wrote:I'm sorry but attending what is arguably the worst law school in America will carry a stigma for the rest of your professional career.


Exactly. We aren't talking about HYS vs a schoool like Texas Tech, we are talking Cooley, not only one of the worst schools in the country, but a school that creates its own ranking so that it looks good.

People are going to care if you go to HYS and people are going to care if you go to Cooley. All the schools in between probably isn't such a huge deal.

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ATOIsp07
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Re: Cooley PEP program

Postby ATOIsp07 » Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:23 pm

darknightbegins wrote:
moonmaster3 wrote:I'm sorry but attending what is arguably the worst law school in America will carry a stigma for the rest of your professional career.


Exactly. We aren't talking about HYS vs a schoool like Texas Tech, we are talking Cooley, not only one of the worst schools in the country, but a school that creates its own ranking so that it looks good.

People are going to care if you go to HYS and people are going to care if you go to Cooley. All the schools in between probably isn't such a huge deal.


BTW, Cooley isn't the worst law school. There many other non-ABA affiliated schools.

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darknightbegins
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Re: Cooley PEP program

Postby darknightbegins » Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:31 pm

True. I never even consider non-ABA schools actually schools. Technically I guess you are right.

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Veyron
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Re: Cooley PEP program

Postby Veyron » Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:36 pm

"5 or 10 years from now, nobody is going to care what you got on the LSAT or where you attended law school."

This is just wrong, TY for playing.

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Re: Cooley PEP program

Postby lawschooliseasy » Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:43 pm

ATOIsp07 wrote:I'm going to put it like this and then, hopefully, this thread can die:
Going to HYS doesn't guarantee you success as a lawyer. Going to Cooley doesn't guarantee you failure as a lawyer.


In the short term, at least, I disagree. I will be going to a T25 with low debt. However, have you seen the job prospects for HYS? These schools almost literally do not fail anybody. Even if you are at the rock bottom of your class you are practically guaranteed solid employment (in a reasonable economy, these last two years have been an exception). Of course, everyone is quite right in that after you work for a few years your degree will be good for little more than bragging rights. However, the position that you land right out of HYS will go a very, very long way on your resume as long as you aren´t woefully incompetant.

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Re: Cooley PEP program

Postby ATOIsp07 » Thu Feb 04, 2010 7:05 pm

Veyron wrote:"5 or 10 years from now, nobody is going to care what you got on the LSAT or where you attended law school."

This is just wrong, TY for playing.



You are so full of yourself. 5 years into your legal career, nobody's going to ask about your LSAT score. Thinking otherwise is almost laughable. I will recant the part about nobody caring where you attend school. But, even then, at that stage of your legal career, it's more for bragging rights and doesn't really make you a better law for attending that particular school.

And, BTW, what they teach you in law school is different from the actual workforce practice.


Quit being an asshat. TY for playing...NOT!

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Re: Cooley PEP program

Postby ATOIsp07 » Thu Feb 04, 2010 7:14 pm

lawschooliseasy wrote:
ATOIsp07 wrote:I'm going to put it like this and then, hopefully, this thread can die:
Going to HYS doesn't guarantee you success as a lawyer. Going to Cooley doesn't guarantee you failure as a lawyer.


In the short term, at least, I disagree. I will be going to a T25 with low debt. However, have you seen the job prospects for HYS? These schools almost literally do not fail anybody. Even if you are at the rock bottom of your class you are practically guaranteed solid employment (in a reasonable economy, these last two years have been an exception). Of course, everyone is quite right in that after you work for a few years your degree will be good for little more than bragging rights. However, the position that you land right out of HYS will go a very, very long way on your resume as long as you aren´t woefully incompetant.



And, of course, HYS are special cases. But, realistically speaking, more people didn't go to these schools than people who actually attend. Prestige is one thing but making HYS a minimum for legal career success is foolish. The same goes to T14 and T1s to an extent. Great lawyers come from different cloths.

My subtle analogy is the NCAA to NBA journey. Not everyone can play for UNC, Duke or Kansas. Players who come from those programs receive the hype and have great expectations placed on them. Needless to say, not every player from these schools become a superstar in the NBA, let alone make it to the league. Conversely, schools like UNLV, Holy Cross and URI aren't necessarily the best (or even good) programs. But they have also had their shares of NBA success stories. Players who are good enough for the highest level will ultimately make it. Those who aren't, regardless of their program, will be weeded out.

This is the same for the law school process.


And, for the sake of this analogy, the athletes who came straight out of high school represent the students who come from non-ABA accredited schools.

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Re: Cooley PEP program

Postby GATORTIM » Thu Feb 04, 2010 7:15 pm

ATOIsp07 wrote:TLS is pretty sad for the fact that many users on here need to temper their insecurities by making fun of other users who attend lower "ranked" schools. It is a very poor way of living if the only way you can make yourself feel better is by ridiculing those who didn't have a high enough GPA or LSAT score or didn't go to school at HYS.

I understand this is top law school forum but, still, have some consideration and class. Not everyone could attend the best schools. Not everyone had mommy and daddy bankroll them for tutors and LSAT classes. Not everyone came from a family of doctors and lawyers. Everyone needs to cool off with the snobbery. 5 or 10 years from now, nobody is going to care what you got on the LSAT or where you attended law school. It'll only matter if whether or not you pass the BAR and are a certified lawyer. I highly doubt that 4 years from now, the same people ridiculing OP are going to even remember TLS, let alone trolling on it. Grow up!

Law school is temporary. Class is permanent.


+1

But I can assure you MTal will be on here in 5 years

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ATOIsp07
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Re: Cooley PEP program

Postby ATOIsp07 » Thu Feb 04, 2010 7:19 pm

GATORTIM wrote:But I can assure you MTal will be on here in 5 years


Yes, it's true he will be.

He didn't have the heart nor skill to be a lawyer. If he went to HYS, he probably would've ended up a shitty lawyer regardless.

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darknightbegins
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Re: Cooley PEP program

Postby darknightbegins » Thu Feb 04, 2010 7:23 pm

ATOIsp07 wrote:
lawschooliseasy wrote:
ATOIsp07 wrote:I'm going to put it like this and then, hopefully, this thread can die:
Going to HYS doesn't guarantee you success as a lawyer. Going to Cooley doesn't guarantee you failure as a lawyer.


In the short term, at least, I disagree. I will be going to a T25 with low debt. However, have you seen the job prospects for HYS? These schools almost literally do not fail anybody. Even if you are at the rock bottom of your class you are practically guaranteed solid employment (in a reasonable economy, these last two years have been an exception). Of course, everyone is quite right in that after you work for a few years your degree will be good for little more than bragging rights. However, the position that you land right out of HYS will go a very, very long way on your resume as long as you aren´t woefully incompetant.



And, of course, HYS are special cases. But, realistically speaking, more people didn't go to these schools than people who actually attend. Prestige is one thing but making HYS a minimum for legal career success is foolish. The same goes to T14 and T1s to an extent. Great lawyers come from different cloths.

My subtle analogy is the NCAA to NBA journey. Not everyone can play for UNC, Duke or Kansas. Players who come from those programs receive the hype and have great expectations placed on them. Needless to say, not every player from these schools become a superstar in the NBA, let alone make it to the league. Conversely, schools like UNLV, Holy Cross and URI aren't necessarily the best (or even good) programs. But they have also had their shares of NBA success stories. Players who are good enough for the highest level will ultimately make it. Those who aren't, regardless of their program, will be weeded out.

This is the same for the law school process.


And, for the sake of this analogy, the athletes who came straight out of high school represent the students who come from non-ABA accredited schools.


So who is the Kobe Bryant and Lebron James of the non-ABA accredited schools?

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JusticeHarlan
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Re: Cooley PEP program

Postby JusticeHarlan » Thu Feb 04, 2010 7:24 pm

ATOIsp07 wrote:And, of course, HYS are special cases. But, realistically speaking, more people didn't go to these schools than people who actually attend. Prestige is one thing but making HYS a minimum for legal career success is foolish. The same goes to T14 and T1s to an extent. Great lawyers come from different cloths.

My subtle analogy is the NCAA to NBA journey. Not everyone can play for UNC, Duke or Kansas. Players who come from those programs receive the hype and have great expectations placed on them. Needless to say, not every player from these schools become a superstar in the NBA, let alone make it to the league. Conversely, schools like UNLV, Holy Cross and URI aren't necessarily the best (or even good) programs. But they have also had their shares of NBA success stories. Players who are good enough for the highest level will ultimately make it. Those who aren't, regardless of their program, will be weeded out.

This is the same for the law school process.


And, for the sake of this analogy, the athletes who came straight out of high school represent the students who come from non-ABA accredited schools.


While I tend to agree with your position in this thread, what's the equivalent in this analogy for the school that puts out its own top 25 rankings and puts itself above Kansas, Duke and Georgetown? :P

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ATOIsp07
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Re: Cooley PEP program

Postby ATOIsp07 » Thu Feb 04, 2010 7:26 pm

darknightbegins wrote:
ATOIsp07 wrote:
lawschooliseasy wrote:
ATOIsp07 wrote:I'm going to put it like this and then, hopefully, this thread can die:
Going to HYS doesn't guarantee you success as a lawyer. Going to Cooley doesn't guarantee you failure as a lawyer.


In the short term, at least, I disagree. I will be going to a T25 with low debt. However, have you seen the job prospects for HYS? These schools almost literally do not fail anybody. Even if you are at the rock bottom of your class you are practically guaranteed solid employment (in a reasonable economy, these last two years have been an exception). Of course, everyone is quite right in that after you work for a few years your degree will be good for little more than bragging rights. However, the position that you land right out of HYS will go a very, very long way on your resume as long as you aren´t woefully incompetant.



And, of course, HYS are special cases. But, realistically speaking, more people didn't go to these schools than people who actually attend. Prestige is one thing but making HYS a minimum for legal career success is foolish. The same goes to T14 and T1s to an extent. Great lawyers come from different cloths.

My subtle analogy is the NCAA to NBA journey. Not everyone can play for UNC, Duke or Kansas. Players who come from those programs receive the hype and have great expectations placed on them. Needless to say, not every player from these schools become a superstar in the NBA, let alone make it to the league. Conversely, schools like UNLV, Holy Cross and URI aren't necessarily the best (or even good) programs. But they have also had their shares of NBA success stories. Players who are good enough for the highest level will ultimately make it. Those who aren't, regardless of their program, will be weeded out.

This is the same for the law school process.


And, for the sake of this analogy, the athletes who came straight out of high school represent the students who come from non-ABA accredited schools.


So who is the Kobe Bryant and Lebron James of the non-ABA accredited schools?



Rarities....like all other high-school to NBA superstars. But they exist. I bet you there's at least a couple of attorneys from non-ABA schools that are pulling 6-figure salaries. I know of three in my state.

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ATOIsp07
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Re: Cooley PEP program

Postby ATOIsp07 » Thu Feb 04, 2010 7:27 pm

JusticeHarlan wrote:
ATOIsp07 wrote:And, of course, HYS are special cases. But, realistically speaking, more people didn't go to these schools than people who actually attend. Prestige is one thing but making HYS a minimum for legal career success is foolish. The same goes to T14 and T1s to an extent. Great lawyers come from different cloths.

My subtle analogy is the NCAA to NBA journey. Not everyone can play for UNC, Duke or Kansas. Players who come from those programs receive the hype and have great expectations placed on them. Needless to say, not every player from these schools become a superstar in the NBA, let alone make it to the league. Conversely, schools like UNLV, Holy Cross and URI aren't necessarily the best (or even good) programs. But they have also had their shares of NBA success stories. Players who are good enough for the highest level will ultimately make it. Those who aren't, regardless of their program, will be weeded out.

This is the same for the law school process.


And, for the sake of this analogy, the athletes who came straight out of high school represent the students who come from non-ABA accredited schools.


While I tend to agree with your position in this thread, what's the equivalent in this analogy for the school that puts out its own top 25 rankings and puts itself above Kansas, Duke and Georgetown? :P



LOL! You know damn well nobody took those rankings seriously. And if they did, they got school pride!

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darknightbegins
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Re: Cooley PEP program

Postby darknightbegins » Thu Feb 04, 2010 7:30 pm

My subtle analogy is the NCAA to NBA journey. Not everyone can play for UNC, Duke or Kansas. Players who come from those programs receive the hype and have great expectations placed on them. Needless to say, not every player from these schools become a superstar in the NBA, let alone make it to the league. Conversely, schools like UNLV, Holy Cross and URI aren't necessarily the best (or even good) programs. But they have also had their shares of NBA success stories. Players who are good enough for the highest level will ultimately make it. Those who aren't, regardless of their program, will be weeded out.

This is the same for the law school process.


And, for the sake of this analogy, the athletes who came straight out of high school represent the students who come from non-ABA accredited schools.[/quote]

So who is the Kobe Bryant and Lebron James of the non-ABA accredited schools?[/quote]


Rarities....like all other high-school to NBA superstars. But they exist. I bet you there's at least a couple of attorneys from non-ABA schools that are pulling 6-figure salaries. I know of three in my state.[/quote]

I was just messing with you man. I had to throw that out there since, following the analogy, two of the best lawyers in the market today should have come from non-ABA schools.

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Borhas
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Re: Cooley PEP program

Postby Borhas » Thu Feb 04, 2010 7:33 pm

ATOIsp07 wrote:TLS is pretty sad for the fact that many users on here need to temper their insecurities by making fun of other users who attend lower "ranked" schools. It is a very poor way of living if the only way you can make yourself feel better is by ridiculing those who didn't have a high enough GPA or LSAT score or didn't go to school at HYS.

I understand this is top law school forum but, still, have some consideration and class. Not everyone could attend the best schools. Not everyone had mommy and daddy bankroll them for tutors and LSAT classes. Not everyone came from a family of doctors and lawyers. Everyone needs to cool off with the snobbery. 5 or 10 years from now, nobody is going to care what you got on the LSAT or where you attended law school. It'll only matter if whether or not you pass the BAR and are a certified lawyer. I highly doubt that 4 years from now, the same people ridiculing OP are going to even remember TLS, let alone trolling on it. Grow up!

Law school is temporary. Class is permanent.


well said, there's helping people by telling them the real problems they will face, and then there's the ridicule and arrogance that is displayed here the other 99% of the time.




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