Cooley PEP program

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thickfreakness
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Re: Cooley PEP program

Postby thickfreakness » Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:48 am

Saw this banner and thought it would be useful in this thread.

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Honeysuckle
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Re: Cooley PEP program

Postby Honeysuckle » Wed Mar 03, 2010 1:05 pm

OP: Even if you successfully complete this provisional program, for the love of God, do not enroll in Cooley. The opportunities, or lack thereof, afforded by Cooley do not justify squandering three years of your life and ~150K. The grading curve there is incredibly harsh, to weed out the weak, and consequently over 1/3 of students end up flunking out after their 1L. Unlike most law schools, tests are closed book; no outlines are even permitted. The first-time bar passage rate is about 20 percentage points below the MI state average. If you happen to be among the lucky ones who make it through, employment prospects are dim (and I'm sure the absurd "rankings" they continue to release each year are not helping the school's reputation). Schools like this exist to gobble up money and exploit the hopes of students with low numbers. So, IMO it would be wise to retake the LSAT and apply to schools that are a wiser investment of your time and money next cycle. Best of luck!

umichgrad
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Re: Cooley PEP program

Postby umichgrad » Wed Mar 03, 2010 1:40 pm

wow, massive 1-month bump. But since I'm here, I'd like to clarify one thing: saying that not making Biglaw in your first few years after law school equates to never ever making Biglaw is inaccurate. Two of the most well-known partners at my firm either worked in politics or started small businesses or practices before entering Biglaw--based entirely off of connections and networking--more than ten years after graduating law school.

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Honeysuckle
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Re: Cooley PEP program

Postby Honeysuckle » Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:49 am

mb88 wrote:There's a significant difference between hating on Cooley because it's a lower ranked school, and hating on Cooley because it's cheapening the national system of law schools, and the lawyer profession in general. This PEP Program, if it is in fact a program to allow people with <143 LSAT scores into law school, only seals this further.

The LSAT may not measure intelligence, but it does measure logical reasoning and reading comprehension fairly well. These two items are possibly *the* most important skills involved with being a lawyer. If you did your best and couldn't score over a 143, I'm sorry, but you just don't have what it takes to be a lawyer. That isn't meant to be stuck up, elitist, or cruel. It's just fact. In some circles, people will tell you to follow your dreams and that you can do whatever you want to. Frankly, that's misguided. Would you support somebody who's terrible at math to become an engineer? No? Then why would you support somebody who's terrible at reading comp/logic to become an attorney?

Doesn't LSAC recommend law schools not to admit students below a 147 or some similar number? <143 is just too low. You shouldn't be able to get into any accredited law school with that until you've improved the skills needed to succeed in the field.


If such a standard were rigorously adhered to, plenty of T4 schools would have to cease operations.

r6_philly
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Re: Cooley PEP program

Postby r6_philly » Fri Mar 05, 2010 4:03 am

The median LSAT at my UG is 148. The median LSAT for all people is like low 150 I think. If 40-50% of the LSAT takers are not allowed to attend law school ... well education is a commodity anyway, as long as someone is willing to pay for it, someone will be able to attend. Mostliley someone will benefit from it regardless of how anyone else feel about the worth of it.

DukeHopeful
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Re: Cooley PEP program

Postby DukeHopeful » Fri Mar 05, 2010 4:36 am

umichgrad wrote:wow, massive 1-month bump. But since I'm here, I'd like to clarify one thing: saying that not making Biglaw in your first few years after law school equates to never ever making Biglaw is inaccurate. Two of the most well-known partners at my firm either worked in politics or started small businesses or practices before entering Biglaw--based entirely off of connections and networking--more than ten years after graduating law school.


Being successful in politics or a self-made businessman means that you've already achieved something great and therefore you would have something outside of being a lawyer that makes you a great asset to a firm. That's a completely different scenario from someone going to Cooley, struggling to find work in a law firm, and hoping that working X years at SmallFirm Y will give him the "experience" to land Biglaw.

Your point is understood and accepted, you just misunderstood the context of the phrase you sought to discredit.

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Panther7
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Re: Cooley PEP program

Postby Panther7 » Fri Mar 05, 2010 5:42 am

r6_philly wrote:The median LSAT at my UG is 148. The median LSAT for all people is like low 150 I think. If 40-50% of the LSAT takers are not allowed to attend law school ... well education is a commodity anyway, as long as someone is willing to pay for it, someone will be able to attend. Mostliley someone will benefit from it regardless of how anyone else feel about the worth of it.



actually only about 30-40% of those who take the LSAT each year end up matriculating at a law school.

So for a 143 to be attending... that kind is crazy... They are easily in the lowest 1% of those who go to law school in that given year. I'm not saying it's suicide, but you REALLY REAALLLLLLY need to look over your options a few times before dumping money into a diploma mill like Cooley. That's not a bang on Cooley's rank or status, they really are a diploma mill. And us future lawyers are aware of that.

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mb88
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Re: Cooley PEP program

Postby mb88 » Fri Mar 05, 2010 11:49 am

Honeysuckle wrote:
If such a standard were rigorously adhered to, plenty of T4 schools would have to cease operations.


I know it's not generally adhered to, I was just mentioning it as support to my claim about numbers that low not being ready for law school.

I probably did anyway, but my intention was specifically not to come across as just some asshat saying, "lolol u only scored 169???? too dumb to do laws!" By referencing the LSAC "cutoff" (I know I read about it somewhere), I hoped to show that if even the makers of the test believe a score significantly higher than your own is still too low to succeed...you probably aren't going to succeed.

r6_philly
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Re: Cooley PEP program

Postby r6_philly » Fri Mar 05, 2010 12:14 pm

Panther7 wrote:actually only about 30-40% of those who take the LSAT each year end up matriculating at a law school.

So for a 143 to be attending... that kind is crazy... They are easily in the lowest 1% of those who go to law school in that given year. I'm not saying it's suicide, but you REALLY REAALLLLLLY need to look over your options a few times before dumping money into a diploma mill like Cooley. That's not a bang on Cooley's rank or status, they really are a diploma mill. And us future lawyers are aware of that.


You should consider:
1. what kind of GPA do people who score less than a 143 would most likely have?
2. what kind of class standing would they most likely?
3. what kinds of options would most likely to be open for them?
4. would they be able to readily find a decent job by graduation?
5. is Cooley REALLY a bad option compare to the other non-options?

Say you go to T4 and graduate and find a job in a solo local firm making 40-50k a year, I think that is a super upgrade from anything most of those who score 143 can find right now out of UG. My classmates are all panicing because anyone who isn't a educational major (we are mostly a teacher college) can't find anything. Friends are considering staying at their part-time jobs full-time after graduation.

I don't think there is anything wrong with Cooley for the people who have it as a top level option. I just think they shouldn't get in to massive debt to attend. I mean, many people go to TTT UG to get a degree, as long as you are not borrwing your maximum I think that's better than not doing anything.

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Doritos
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Re: Cooley PEP program

Postby Doritos » Fri Mar 05, 2010 12:57 pm

r6_philly wrote:
Panther7 wrote:actually only about 30-40% of those who take the LSAT each year end up matriculating at a law school.

So for a 143 to be attending... that kind is crazy... They are easily in the lowest 1% of those who go to law school in that given year. I'm not saying it's suicide, but you REALLY REAALLLLLLY need to look over your options a few times before dumping money into a diploma mill like Cooley. That's not a bang on Cooley's rank or status, they really are a diploma mill. And us future lawyers are aware of that.


You should consider:
1. what kind of GPA do people who score less than a 143 would most likely have?
2. what kind of class standing would they most likely?
3. what kinds of options would most likely to be open for them?
4. would they be able to readily find a decent job by graduation?
5. is Cooley REALLY a bad option compare to the other non-options?

Say you go to T4 and graduate and find a job in a solo local firm making 40-50k a year, I think that is a super upgrade from anything most of those who score 143 can find right now out of UG. My classmates are all panicing because anyone who isn't a educational major (we are mostly a teacher college) can't find anything. Friends are considering staying at their part-time jobs full-time after graduation.

I don't think there is anything wrong with Cooley for the people who have it as a top level option. I just think they shouldn't get in to massive debt to attend. I mean, many people go to TTT UG to get a degree, as long as you are not borrwing your maximum I think that's better than not doing anything.


Philly I feel ya. The majority of my friends who graduated last year are working at Starbucks, waitressing, bartending, call center, or working full time at the part time gig that had in UG. It's rough and my UG isn't complete crap. You touched on the biggest concern...debt. People in this special program are probably going to be paying sticker for Cooley. That doesn't seem that great of an idea. Also, jobs are getting tough to find even for the tier 1 schools. I can't imagine Cooley grads just coasting into 40-50k per year jobs. I imagine lots are struggling. Also, think of cost of living. Even if they aren't paying for tuition there's gotta be at least 15 - 20k per year of COL unless you are SUPER frugal. 15k * 3 = 45k. So even a full ride doesn't necessarily mean FREE.

As far as other options out of college. I currently work in a call center where the commission folks are making on average 40k per year. It sucks but none of them went to college and all drive nicer cars than I do (actually my car just died). There are options out there even if you went to a TTTTTT undergrad and don't have a great GPA. It's really a cost benefit analysis for the person but it's just tough to see Cooley full price (as these PEP people are doing) as a great life decision

r6_philly
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Re: Cooley PEP program

Postby r6_philly » Fri Mar 05, 2010 1:19 pm

I think a lot of people are being scared into looking at lower ranked schools for a variety of reasons, and many of them are understandable but not good reasons. There are also pressure from family and self for doing something. Who wants to graduate with a BA and work in 7-11. It is good that they are trying to make a better future for themselves but you are right they need to consider the costs and not make costly mistakes. There are also other people getting into mba's and phd programs and end up having no better job prospect, but those options cost a helluva less than 3 years of sticker law school. My state UG school, you can get a MS/MA for less than $12k sticker, it may be a better option. I can def. understand that law is a seemingly attractive career choice, I mean I am doing it, but maybe it isn't so practical if you are not near the top. I don't think anyone should resign to fate and eeks out a meager living, but maybe there are better, cheaper, more sensible options that will lead to better future and personal satisfaction. I am facing a slew of options myself, and I am not going to close all other doors because I am committed to law. I am going to build all of my options so even after law school I can still have those options.

I say good luck to everyone who wants to better their positions. Good luck and be careful of what you choose!

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Honeysuckle
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Re: Cooley PEP program

Postby Honeysuckle » Fri Mar 05, 2010 5:12 pm

mb88 wrote:
Honeysuckle wrote:
If such a standard were rigorously adhered to, plenty of T4 schools would have to cease operations.


I know it's not generally adhered to, I was just mentioning it as support to my claim about numbers that low not being ready for law school.

I probably did anyway, but my intention was specifically not to come across as just some asshat saying, "lolol u only scored 169???? too dumb to do laws!" By referencing the LSAC "cutoff" (I know I read about it somewhere), I hoped to show that if even the makers of the test believe a score significantly higher than your own is still too low to succeed...you probably aren't going to succeed.


No, you didn't come off as an asshat; I completely agree with you. The whole warm n' fuzzy "everyone can be a lawyer!" attitude has to stop. If someone seriously prepared for the LSAT and all they could muster was a sub-143 score, they most likely lack the verbal skills necessary to do well in law school, pass the bar (LSAT performance is strongly correlated with bar passage rates), and succeed as a lawyer. Cooley's PEP and other provisional programs at T4 schools give students with low numbers false hopes. I'm not being elitist, but realistic. No one in their right mind would encourage someone who can't do basic algebra to become an engineer, right?
Last edited by Honeysuckle on Thu Mar 11, 2010 11:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Jules Winnfield
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Re: Cooley PEP program

Postby Jules Winnfield » Fri Mar 05, 2010 5:20 pm

Honeysuckle wrote:
mb88 wrote:
Honeysuckle wrote:
If such a standard were rigorously adhered to, plenty of T4 schools would have to cease operations.


I know it's not generally adhered to, I was just mentioning it as support to my claim about numbers that low not being ready for law school.

I probably did anyway, but my intention was specifically not to come across as just some asshat saying, "lolol u only scored 169???? too dumb to do laws!" By referencing the LSAC "cutoff" (I know I read about it somewhere), I hoped to show that if even the makers of the test believe a score significantly higher than your own is still too low to succeed...you probably aren't going to succeed.


No, you didn't come off as an asshat; I completely agree with you. The whole warm n' fuzzy "everyone can be a lawyer!" attitude has to stop. If someone seriously prepared for the LSAT and all they could muster was a sub-143 score, they clearly lack the verbal skills necessary to do well in law school, pass the bar (LSAT performance is strongly correlated with bar passage rates), and succeed as a lawyer. Cooley's PEP and other provisional programs at T4 schools give students with low numbers false hopes. I'm not being elitist, but realistic. No one in their right mind would encourage someone who can't do basic algebra to become an engineer, right?


I'd wager that there are a number of people who have scored a 143 (or slightly better) and have been able to pass the BAR and become lawyers.

r6_philly
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Re: Cooley PEP program

Postby r6_philly » Fri Mar 05, 2010 5:28 pm

I also don't really expect the lawyers that I see in traffic court with holes in their suit jacket to score much better than a 143. Not a joke. They passed the bar and are lawyers.

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Honeysuckle
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Re: Cooley PEP program

Postby Honeysuckle » Fri Mar 05, 2010 7:40 pm

r6_philly wrote:I also don't really expect the lawyers that I see in traffic court with holes in their suit jacket to score much better than a 143. Not a joke. They passed the bar and are lawyers.


Someone who scored under 143 is unlikely to get scholly money from Cooley if they get in through the PEP program. If they get in, they have a small chance of making it through, given Cooley's notoriously harsh curve (like I mentioned before, ~1/3 of 1Ls flunk out). If they're lucky and somehow end up graduating, basically they've thrown away 3 years of their life and upwards of $200K to work (at best) as a lawyer in traffic court with holes in their suit jacket, as you put it. Sounds like horrible investment of time and money. I see countless profiles on LSN of folks with LSATs in the low 140s--even 130s--who are like "OMG i got in2 Cooley!!!!111!!!one!!1eleventyone!" who seriously have no idea what they're getting into. They're nothing short of being EXPLOITED. The reason I hate on Cooley so much is not because it's a low-ranked school (CUNY-Queens for instance is T4 but is very affordable and is a decent option for those who want to do PI law in NYC), but because of their deceptive, loathsome practices.

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Panther7
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Re: Cooley PEP program

Postby Panther7 » Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:12 pm

Honeysuckle wrote:
r6_philly wrote:I also don't really expect the lawyers that I see in traffic court with holes in their suit jacket to score much better than a 143. Not a joke. They passed the bar and are lawyers.


Someone who scored under 143 is unlikely to get scholly money from Cooley if they get in through the PEP program. If they get in, they have a small chance of making it through, given Cooley's notoriously harsh curve (like I mentioned before, ~1/3 of 1Ls flunk out). If they're lucky and somehow end up graduating, basically they've thrown away 3 years of their life and upwards of $200K to work (at best) as a lawyer in traffic court with holes in their suit jacket, as you put it. Sounds like horrible investment of time and money. I see countless profiles on LSN of folks with LSATs in the low 140s--even 130s--who are like "OMG i got in2 Cooley!!!!111!!!one!!1eleventyone!" who seriously have no idea what they're getting into. They're nothing short of being EXPLOITED. The reason I hate on Cooley so much is not because it's a low-ranked school (CUNY-Queens for instance is T4 but is very affordable and is a decent option for those who want to do PI law in NYC), but because of their deceptive, loathsome practices.


this.

rww830872
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Re: Cooley PEP program

Postby rww830872 » Fri Apr 16, 2010 12:19 am

I wish I would have read this thread a day earlier and I would have put a deposit on Hofstra. I put a deposit on Cooley as they are the only school to give me a full ride and Hofstra was only willing to give me 10,000 with the stipulation that I place in the top 33% i think.

I'm banking on the fact that I get into UNLV but if not then I am attending Cooley.

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Perjury
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Re: Cooley PEP program

Postby Perjury » Fri Apr 16, 2010 12:23 am

rww830872 wrote:I wish I would have read this thread a day earlier and I would have put a deposit on Hofstra. I put a deposit on Cooley as they are the only school to give me a full ride and Hofstra was only willing to give me 10,000 with the stipulation that I place in the top 33% i think.

I'm banking on the fact that I get into UNLV but if not then I am attending Cooley.


put a stop payment on your cooley payment and go to hofstra. seriously.

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Notor
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Re: Cooley PEP program

Postby Notor » Fri Apr 16, 2010 12:30 am

People whose credentials are so low that they don't qualify them for outright admission to one of the worst law schools in the country do not deserve to attend law school. Lawyers have a tangible impact on society and the ability to make change and influence people's lives, both negatively and positively. It is an important profession. You should not be able to just take out $150k in loans to be a lawyer, but schools like Cooley facilitate this waste of people's time and money for the pursuit of something that will never be attainable for the vast majority of them.

rockstar4488
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Re: Cooley PEP program

Postby rockstar4488 » Fri Apr 16, 2010 9:54 am

I've got to disagree with the huge negative bias towards lower tiered law schools here. I think spending 150k to have a J.D. from an accredited law school and becoming a barred attorney is worth it. You now have a marketable qualification and while you (likely) wont be working at biglaw for 160k, you have legitimate career opportunities. If you guys really want to talk about poor ROI on an educational investment, please lecture everyone with a sticker price B.A. from an Ivy or other "elite" New England private.

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darknightbegins
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Re: Cooley PEP program

Postby darknightbegins » Fri Apr 16, 2010 12:15 pm

rockstar4488 wrote:I've got to disagree with the huge negative bias towards lower tiered law schools here. I think spending 150k to have a J.D. from an accredited law school and becoming a barred attorney is worth it. You now have a marketable qualification and while you (likely) wont be working at biglaw for 160k, you have legitimate career opportunities. If you guys really want to talk about poor ROI on an educational investment, please lecture everyone with a sticker price B.A. from an Ivy or other "elite" New England private.


Lower tierd is one thing, Cooley is another. There are some good TTT and TTTT schools out there. Cooley, and my whipping boy Florida A&M, are not among these schools. Don't waste three years of your life at Cooley.

The discussion about the B.A. is another topic that merits its own thread.

flcath
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Re: Cooley PEP program

Postby flcath » Sun Apr 18, 2010 4:38 am

rockstar4488 wrote:I've got to disagree with the huge negative bias towards lower tiered law schools here. I think spending 150k to have a J.D. from an accredited law school and becoming a barred attorney is worth it. You now have a marketable qualification and while you (likely) wont be working at biglaw for 160k, you have legitimate career opportunities. If you guys really want to talk about poor ROI on an educational investment, please lecture everyone with a sticker price B.A. from an Ivy or other "elite" New England private.

I disagree with you totally on the LS point, though I agree with you completely on the Ivy BA point, provided you want to go to LS afterward.

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richardfitzwell
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Re: Cooley PEP program

Postby richardfitzwell » Sun Apr 18, 2010 5:00 am

bbmela wrote:So has anyone attended Cooley's PEP program? I'm going to be doing it in 3 weeks. I was curious as to what to expect.




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jjd06e
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Re: Cooley PEP program

Postby jjd06e » Sun Apr 18, 2010 12:50 pm

I dont get all the hate in here. My dad and my uncle both attended Cooley and both are real successful lawyers. Would it be my first choice to attend? No, but I dont get why people would come in here and rip other people for attending. Hope it makes you all feel better to rip someone elses law school

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Perjury
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Re: Cooley PEP program

Postby Perjury » Sun Apr 18, 2010 1:00 pm

it makes me feel good




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