Military Law Forum

[howell]

Does the military drug test their summer interns?

I did the AF summer internship in 2011 and don't recall getting tested, but I don't know if there's any guarantee that they won't.

[Patrick Bateman]

Does the military drug test their summer interns?

Civilian employees are subject to drug testing as a general rule but I was never tested during my internship nor am I aware of this being a practice. That said, if you are concerned about a drug test, be aware that you will have to disclose illicit drug use as part of the application process if you intend to apply for a JAG position -- if you are doing anything illegal while a law student (i.e., when you know better), it is not likely you will get a waiver for that drug use.

[twenty]

I'm not sure if anyone's done this yet, but here goes:

I checked the FY14 Army JAG 2L intern list against the FY15 Army JAG Active Duty selection list, and found that 60% of the 2L interns ended up on the FY15 AD selection list. Holy shit, I had no idea it was that high. That's not taking into account that some of the remaining 40% of the 2L interns may have simply decided not to apply to the active board, or may be selected in future boards.

[Anonymous User]

From my conversations with Army JAGs, it's a generally understood that if you intern for Army JAG during the summer, you can get an AD position if you want and if everything goes normally (you don't seriously piss off anyone important). There of course is no official guarantee of an AD position, though. Is that what other people have seen in other services?

[Runner2008]

Hi folks, I started out as a part-time student at a T3 school in the Midwest. I transitioned to full-time and just finished my 1L courses along with 15 credits of upper division courses.

My 1L class rank is in the top 2%, and overall class rank (incorporating the 2L classes) is in the top 5%. I have a Marine JA slot (I'm a prior officer). My question is whether it would be worth transferring to a T14 school (or a t1 school ranked in the top 35). To transfer to the T14, I would lose my 15 credits of upper level classes and incur an additional $80k in debt. To transfer to the T1, the money situation would be a wash, but I would have to commute 1.5 hrs twice a week to go to class for at least the first semester (family situation prevents moving). Additionally, I have a 6 credit internship at the city DA's office with the T3, I would lose that if I transfer to the T1 (I assume that's about the best on-the-job training that you can get pre-JAG).

Although I like the Marine Corps, I left my previous MOS because I got sick of the generalist-managerial role that officers assume as they gain rank. Well, after interning this summer, I've realized its not that different in the Judge Advocate world. Great trial experience and training right off the bat, but not much of an opportunity to specialize. Assuming that BigFed/DOJ offer opportunities a little bit more in-line with the ultimate goals, do you think transferring would be worthwhile to make sure that doors that might be shut to me with a T3 degree stay open?

I posted a similar question in the 'transfer or stay thread,' but the more discussion, the less the question felt like it belonged in the transfer forum and the more it felt like it belonged in the military law forum (mods, do what you will:). I would sure appreciate any feedback!

[Patrick Bateman]

Hi folks, I started out as a part-time student at a T3 school in the Midwest. I transitioned to full-time and just finished my 1L courses along with 15 credits of upper division courses.

My 1L class rank is in the top 2%, and overall class rank (incorporating the 2L classes) is in the top 5%. I have a Marine JA slot (I'm a prior officer). My question is whether it would be worth transferring to a T14 school (or a t1 school ranked in the top 35). To transfer to the T14, I would lose my 15 credits of upper level classes and incur an additional $80k in debt. To transfer to the T1, the money situation would be a wash, but I would have to commute 1.5 hrs twice a week to go to class for at least the first semester (family situation prevents moving). Additionally, I have a 6 credit internship at the city DA's office with the T3, I would lose that if I transfer to the T1 (I assume that's about the best on-the-job training that you can get pre-JAG).

Although I like the Marine Corps, I left my previous MOS because I got sick of the generalist-managerial role that officers assume as they gain rank. Well, after interning this summer, I've realized its not that different in the Judge Advocate world. Great trial experience and training right off the bat, but not much of an opportunity to specialize. Assuming that BigFed/DOJ offer opportunities a little bit more in-line with the ultimate goals, do you think transferring would be worthwhile to make sure that doors that might be shut to me with a T3 degree stay open?

I posted a similar question in the 'transfer or stay thread,' but the more discussion, the less the question felt like it belonged in the transfer forum and the more it felt like it belonged in the military law forum (mods, do what you will:). I would sure appreciate any feedback!

Good question - congrats on a great 1L.

Your assessment of career progression = generalist/manager within the JAG Corps is correct. I can only speak first hand to my Air Force experiences but I think there some fundamental things that transcend the service branches. This was a significant motivating factor in my decision to go into the reserves - there was no escaping that now that I was good in the courtroom, somewhere in my next 2 assignment, I was going to be put to pasture as a #2 at a medium sized legal office, doing mostly administrative work, and that I would be revisiting leadership roles as I advanced. No thanks.

Having made the leap to DOJ very recently, your law school pedigree (sadly) is going to make a significant difference. I was from a T25 and did not have a Federal clerkship -- that puts me in a very, very small minority within my Division. I got very lucky with a boss who does not buy into that nonsense (despite being a HYS grad herself) and their practical need for someone that had significant trial experience. That said, I've seen firsthand instances in which some attorneys wrote off an applicant outright based on their law school. My experiences may be a bit atypical in that I am in a white collar crime oriented area, which draws mostly from the Honors Program or laterals from well-established law firms - these folks all tend to be former clerks and T14 grads themselves, and so the cycle perpetuates itself. When you get away from the white collar practice areas, I know former (non T14) JAGs are more common (National Courts and National Security Division for example).

To tell you to take on $80K in additional debt for the potential of a DOJ job down the road sounds nuts when I say it out loud. That said, if BigFed is your true ambition, having a T14 JD will make you far more competitive. You are a strong candidate already with prior O experience and what will be some time as a JA (especially if you can spend all that time in the courtroom), so you are not necessarily foreclosing any opportunities, but the walk will be far more uphill.

Good luck!

[BNA]

... don't like the feel of the USMC Program's hoorah attitude.

I was in the Marines for four years before law school.

I enlisted when I was 17 with a parental signature, I earned my bachelors degree while on active duty. Got out of the Marines in November 2012, began law school August 2013. Gi Bill is paying for all of my law school tuition plus $1300 a month for living expenses. I'm a rising 3L and have been professionally Reccomended for the Navy Jag Corps on my first application. The military is my family and that is the only job I've ever wanted.

My advice ... do what I did. The military will cover your college tuition without touching your Gi Bill while you're on active duty, so undergrad is free. The Gi Bill covers law school so that is free. Prior service shows the jag accessions board that you want to be in jag because you care about the service and your country, and not about landing yourself a law job in a tough legal market. Prior enlisted experience will likely make you a better officer as well. Moreover, if you get into jag you'll be paid much more for being prior enlisted and be four years closer to retirement than your peers.

If you really want to serve your country then what I did is a great path, for a multitude of reasons. But if your motivations are truly more disingenuous or malevolent then try another route. There are certainly many roads to get you to the jag corps. The other more common way is to finish undergrad, presumably with student loans. Get into law school, more loans. And apply for jag then and hopefully get it. You can't apply for Army Jag until you're a 3L. If you are at a great law school with great grades you'll have a better shot at getting it. Prior service isn't a guarantee you'll get in but I really believe it gives you a huge leg up on your peers.

You don't lose any time by doing your degree while on active duty, but you do lose the undergrad "college lifestyle." Corps and country are all that ever mattered to me so giving the traditional undergrad experience up wasn't a big deal for me. Maybe it is for you.

That's my advice, just my opinion . . .

I agree with and support every bit of this because I did/am doing the same thing. I do want to add, though, that enlisting is only a good option if you are mature, focused and 100% positive that you'll: a) do well enough in training to choose a duty station that promotes education (USN/AF ONLY), and b) maximize your tuition assistance and any other funding programs/grants, and ACTUALLY finish the degree. So many people join with the intention of finishing their bachelors while in the service. Most drag it out and it takes 10 years.

[Runner2008]

Hi folks, I started out as a part-time student at a T3 school in the Midwest. I transitioned to full-time and just finished my 1L courses along with 15 credits of upper division courses.

My 1L class rank is in the top 2%, and overall class rank (incorporating the 2L classes) is in the top 5%. I have a Marine JA slot (I'm a prior officer). My question is whether it would be worth transferring to a T14 school (or a t1 school ranked in the top 35). To transfer to the T14, I would lose my 15 credits of upper level classes and incur an additional $80k in debt. To transfer to the T1, the money situation would be a wash, but I would have to commute 1.5 hrs twice a week to go to class for at least the first semester (family situation prevents moving). Additionally, I have a 6 credit internship at the city DA's office with the T3, I would lose that if I transfer to the T1 (I assume that's about the best on-the-job training that you can get pre-JAG).

Although I like the Marine Corps, I left my previous MOS because I got sick of the generalist-managerial role that officers assume as they gain rank. Well, after interning this summer, I've realized its not that different in the Judge Advocate world. Great trial experience and training right off the bat, but not much of an opportunity to specialize. Assuming that BigFed/DOJ offer opportunities a little bit more in-line with the ultimate goals, do you think transferring would be worthwhile to make sure that doors that might be shut to me with a T3 degree stay open?

I posted a similar question in the 'transfer or stay thread,' but the more discussion, the less the question felt like it belonged in the transfer forum and the more it felt like it belonged in the military law forum (mods, do what you will:). I would sure appreciate any feedback!

Good question - congrats on a great 1L.

Your assessment of career progression = generalist/manager within the JAG Corps is correct. I can only speak first hand to my Air Force experiences but I think there some fundamental things that transcend the service branches. This was a significant motivating factor in my decision to go into the reserves - there was no escaping that now that I was good in the courtroom, somewhere in my next 2 assignment, I was going to be put to pasture as a #2 at a medium sized legal office, doing mostly administrative work, and that I would be revisiting leadership roles as I advanced. No thanks.

Having made the leap to DOJ very recently, your law school pedigree (sadly) is going to make a significant difference. I was from a T25 and did not have a Federal clerkship -- that puts me in a very, very small minority within my Division. I got very lucky with a boss who does not buy into that nonsense (despite being a HYS grad herself) and their practical need for someone that had significant trial experience. That said, I've seen firsthand instances in which some attorneys wrote off an applicant outright based on their law school. My experiences may be a bit atypical in that I am in a white collar crime oriented area, which draws mostly from the Honors Program or laterals from well-established law firms - these folks all tend to be former clerks and T14 grads themselves, and so the cycle perpetuates itself. When you get away from the white collar practice areas, I know former (non T14) JAGs are more common (National Courts and National Security Division for example).

To tell you to take on $80K in additional debt for the potential of a DOJ job down the road sounds nuts when I say it out loud. That said, if BigFed is your true ambition, having a T14 JD will make you far more competitive. You are a strong candidate already with prior O experience and what will be some time as a JA (especially if you can spend all that time in the courtroom), so you are not necessarily foreclosing any opportunities, but the walk will be far more uphill.

Good luck!

Thanks Patrick Bateman. I appreciate the candid feedback. One of the first things the OIC here told me when I checked in was that Judge Advocates eventually funnel into two categories: the folks that want to try cases all the time and the folks that want to take more of a "leadership role". While the former usually get out after a tour or two, the latter are in it for the long hau. Ive noticed that in the military legal world, leadership = management. Unlike a lot of the rest of the military Lawyers are pretty self-motivating, and extraordinarily self-sufficient in comparison. This means your job as a leader in the JAG community is ever more administrative and managerial. "Being put to pasture" seems to accurately state how I would see being relegated to that sort of job (which is why I left my previous MOS).

I think I would have a really tough time stomaching the $80k though + extra 5 months in school though. If you don't mind, do you think going to another T1 regional school (30-35 ranking) would be worth the move? The money situation would be a wash (in-state tuition versus private tuition). I would just lose the class rank at my current school and law review. If don't really care so much about the actual flavor of law (i.e. white collar versus national courts versus natl security etc.), do you think the move would be helpful or would it not really make a difference?

Thanks very much for the feedback. I sure as hell don't like, or agree with the elitism, but I suppose it is what it is...thanks!

[Anonymous User]

.

[acr]

I'm very interested in AF JAG right now as a 0L. I'm thinking of pursuing the GLP program and applying after the first semester of 1L. According to the AF JAG website, students who have been accepted to JAG receive a guaranteed internship for 1L summer. Patrick, could you or anyone else shed some light on the details of this internship? Has anyone done this before? Is it paid, what do you do, etc. I've tried digging through the information on the AF page and this massive thread but haven't found anything yet.

Thanks,
acr

[Runner2008]

Hi folks, I started out as a part-time student at a T3 school in the Midwest. I transitioned to full-time and just finished my 1L courses along with 15 credits of upper division courses.

My 1L class rank is in the top 2%, and overall class rank (incorporating the 2L classes) is in the top 5%. I have a Marine JA slot (I'm a prior officer). My question is whether it would be worth transferring to a T14 school (or a t1 school ranked in the top 35). To transfer to the T14, I would lose my 15 credits of upper level classes and incur an additional $80k in debt. To transfer to the T1, the money situation would be a wash, but I would have to commute 1.5 hrs twice a week to go to class for at least the first semester (family situation prevents moving). Additionally, I have a 6 credit internship at the city DA's office with the T3, I would lose that if I transfer to the T1 (I assume that's about the best on-the-job training that you can get pre-JAG).

Although I like the Marine Corps, I left my previous MOS because I got sick of the generalist-managerial role that officers assume as they gain rank. Well, after interning this summer, I've realized its not that different in the Judge Advocate world. Great trial experience and training right off the bat, but not much of an opportunity to specialize. Assuming that BigFed/DOJ offer opportunities a little bit more in-line with the ultimate goals, do you think transferring would be worthwhile to make sure that doors that might be shut to me with a T3 degree stay open?

I posted a similar question in the 'transfer or stay thread,' but the more discussion, the less the question felt like it belonged in the transfer forum and the more it felt like it belonged in the military law forum (mods, do what you will:). I would sure appreciate any feedback!

Good question - congrats on a great 1L.

Your assessment of career progression = generalist/manager within the JAG Corps is correct. I can only speak first hand to my Air Force experiences but I think there some fundamental things that transcend the service branches. This was a significant motivating factor in my decision to go into the reserves - there was no escaping that now that I was good in the courtroom, somewhere in my next 2 assignment, I was going to be put to pasture as a #2 at a medium sized legal office, doing mostly administrative work, and that I would be revisiting leadership roles as I advanced. No thanks.

Having made the leap to DOJ very recently, your law school pedigree (sadly) is going to make a significant difference. I was from a T25 and did not have a Federal clerkship -- that puts me in a very, very small minority within my Division. I got very lucky with a boss who does not buy into that nonsense (despite being a HYS grad herself) and their practical need for someone that had significant trial experience. That said, I've seen firsthand instances in which some attorneys wrote off an applicant outright based on their law school. My experiences may be a bit atypical in that I am in a white collar crime oriented area, which draws mostly from the Honors Program or laterals from well-established law firms - these folks all tend to be former clerks and T14 grads themselves, and so the cycle perpetuates itself. When you get away from the white collar practice areas, I know former (non T14) JAGs are more common (National Courts and National Security Division for example).

To tell you to take on $80K in additional debt for the potential of a DOJ job down the road sounds nuts when I say it out loud. That said, if BigFed is your true ambition, having a T14 JD will make you far more competitive. You are a strong candidate already with prior O experience and what will be some time as a JA (especially if you can spend all that time in the courtroom), so you are not necessarily foreclosing any opportunities, but the walk will be far more uphill.

Good luck!

Is there a certain cut-off time as a JAG when you have to make the decision whether you want to stay in the JAGs or leave for something like AUSA? If you're a Major and are +10 years in the JAG Corps, will you be less attractive to places like a US Attorney's office? Just kinda wondering out loud.

The consensus at the office I'm interning at (Washington D.C.) is that six years as a JAG is the sweet spot if you want to get out (long enough to maximize time in the courtroom and learn how the practice, but not so long that you become obsolete to a civilian employer looking to retain your trial skill set, but teach you a new area of law (or multiple areas for that matter)).

Majors still try cases, but they are usually bigger profile cases. As a major you can also get farmed out to a non-trial billet. the majors I work with try the bigger cases and also do a lot of advising the younger, less experienced JAs with their cases. As the attorneys describe it in my office your liquidity starts running out quickly as a senior major if you want to transition out (that's if you are in a trial billet, junior major if you aren't). I have no idea what the career JAs (i.e. full birds) end up doing other than "Of Counsel" to firms that interact a lot with the government. Senior trial/defense counsel for the branch of service is usually a full bird.

Promotion rates vary, but you will hit major at about 10 years. Once you are competing for field grade rank, the promotion rates decline pretty sharply. However, the vast majority of folks that stay in past their first two tours are there because they like leadership/management and not so much because they love being an expert at a given field of law or in the courtroom. These takeaways are purely anecdotal, so take from them what you will (minus the promotion discussion, that's a numbers game).

To more directly answer your question: No you don't have to sign anything saying "I will stay in for 20". Each time the military moves you will generally commit yourself to working at your new office for two years. Also, once you are passed twice for promotion, you basically get forced out. Once these two things start interacting, things get fun...

[Patrick Bateman]

Hi folks, I started out as a part-time student at a T3 school in the Midwest. I transitioned to full-time and just finished my 1L courses along with 15 credits of upper division courses.

My 1L class rank is in the top 2%, and overall class rank (incorporating the 2L classes) is in the top 5%. I have a Marine JA slot (I'm a prior officer). My question is whether it would be worth transferring to a T14 school (or a t1 school ranked in the top 35). To transfer to the T14, I would lose my 15 credits of upper level classes and incur an additional $80k in debt. To transfer to the T1, the money situation would be a wash, but I would have to commute 1.5 hrs twice a week to go to class for at least the first semester (family situation prevents moving). Additionally, I have a 6 credit internship at the city DA's office with the T3, I would lose that if I transfer to the T1 (I assume that's about the best on-the-job training that you can get pre-JAG).

Although I like the Marine Corps, I left my previous MOS because I got sick of the generalist-managerial role that officers assume as they gain rank. Well, after interning this summer, I've realized its not that different in the Judge Advocate world. Great trial experience and training right off the bat, but not much of an opportunity to specialize. Assuming that BigFed/DOJ offer opportunities a little bit more in-line with the ultimate goals, do you think transferring would be worthwhile to make sure that doors that might be shut to me with a T3 degree stay open?

I posted a similar question in the 'transfer or stay thread,' but the more discussion, the less the question felt like it belonged in the transfer forum and the more it felt like it belonged in the military law forum (mods, do what you will:). I would sure appreciate any feedback!

Good question - congrats on a great 1L.

Your assessment of career progression = generalist/manager within the JAG Corps is correct. I can only speak first hand to my Air Force experiences but I think there some fundamental things that transcend the service branches. This was a significant motivating factor in my decision to go into the reserves - there was no escaping that now that I was good in the courtroom, somewhere in my next 2 assignment, I was going to be put to pasture as a #2 at a medium sized legal office, doing mostly administrative work, and that I would be revisiting leadership roles as I advanced. No thanks.

Having made the leap to DOJ very recently, your law school pedigree (sadly) is going to make a significant difference. I was from a T25 and did not have a Federal clerkship -- that puts me in a very, very small minority within my Division. I got very lucky with a boss who does not buy into that nonsense (despite being a HYS grad herself) and their practical need for someone that had significant trial experience. That said, I've seen firsthand instances in which some attorneys wrote off an applicant outright based on their law school. My experiences may be a bit atypical in that I am in a white collar crime oriented area, which draws mostly from the Honors Program or laterals from well-established law firms - these folks all tend to be former clerks and T14 grads themselves, and so the cycle perpetuates itself. When you get away from the white collar practice areas, I know former (non T14) JAGs are more common (National Courts and National Security Division for example).

To tell you to take on $80K in additional debt for the potential of a DOJ job down the road sounds nuts when I say it out loud. That said, if BigFed is your true ambition, having a T14 JD will make you far more competitive. You are a strong candidate already with prior O experience and what will be some time as a JA (especially if you can spend all that time in the courtroom), so you are not necessarily foreclosing any opportunities, but the walk will be far more uphill.

Good luck!

Thanks Patrick Bateman. I appreciate the candid feedback. One of the first things the OIC here told me when I checked in was that Judge Advocates eventually funnel into two categories: the folks that want to try cases all the time and the folks that want to take more of a "leadership role". While the former usually get out after a tour or two, the latter are in it for the long hau. Ive noticed that in the military legal world, leadership = management. Unlike a lot of the rest of the military Lawyers are pretty self-motivating, and extraordinarily self-sufficient in comparison. This means your job as a leader in the JAG community is ever more administrative and managerial. "Being put to pasture" seems to accurately state how I would see being relegated to that sort of job (which is why I left my previous MOS).

I think I would have a really tough time stomaching the $80k though + extra 5 months in school though. If you don't mind, do you think going to another T1 regional school (30-35 ranking) would be worth the move? The money situation would be a wash (in-state tuition versus private tuition). I would just lose the class rank at my current school and law review. If don't really care so much about the actual flavor of law (i.e. white collar versus national courts versus natl security etc.), do you think the move would be helpful or would it not really make a difference?

Thanks very much for the feedback. I sure as hell don't like, or agree with the elitism, but I suppose it is what it is...thanks!

The extra debt is a very valid consideration. I went to my T25 for full sticker instead of a T2 with scholarship money because I was convinced I wanted BigLaw and my school's placement rate was solid. Having to deal with that debt as a junior officer and now a Fed civilian has not exactly been fun. I'm still a few years off from PSLF and while I'm comfortable, being able to keep that $500 a month loan repayment would make things a lot easier.

If you have been through this thread, there are a number of "what law school should I go to if I want to be selected as a JAG?" The answer there is always that you can't bet on getting selected, so pick the law school that sets you up best for your career plan B. That is probably the safest advice I can give - you have no guarantees that you will get selected for DOJ/BigFed or you may change your mind about where you want to work. That said, the complicating variable is that the JAG Corps does not care where you went to law school.

There are plenty of prior JAGs that work within the various DOJ entities - if that is your goal and you work smartly toward getting there, it is totally possible. You've already handled 1L and becoming a Marine officer - those are not small challenges that you have already surmounted.

The decision between your current T3 and the T1 is a tougher call - I keep changing my opinion on this. If the money is a wash and you can get to a more prestigious school, that is usually a good move. Giving up your GPA and all that is tough but you can write on to your new law review and you have already proven that you can take a law exam. With the benefit of hindsight and if it were me, I would make the jump to T1.

If Fed is your ultimate ambition, that path is far easier if you end up in the DC area. There are Field Offices in major cities and USAO is everywhere, but the vast majority of the jobs are in DC. I had a far easier time being in DC finding my job than my peers who wanted to stay in their cities. Just food for thought there. I would also go a dozen or so pages back where I had a few posts on post-JAG marketability. The things that sell for the legal Feds are trial experience, contracting/acquisitions/procurement, labor law, and information litigation. If you can get experience in one of those areas and make that your thing, you will have a solid subject matter background that you will be able to market effectively.

[ss3db1]

I'm very interested in AF JAG right now as a 0L. I'm thinking of pursuing the GLP program and applying after the first semester of 1L. According to the AF JAG website, students who have been accepted to JAG receive a guaranteed internship for 1L summer. Patrick, could you or anyone else shed some light on the details of this internship? Has anyone done this before? Is it paid, what do you do, etc. I've tried digging through the information on the AF page and this massive thread but haven't found anything yet.

Thanks,
acr

If by "guaranteed internship" with the GLP program you mean attending AFROTC field training then that is correct, however that is most certainly not a JAG internship. The actual AF internship is a different application process and program where you do get paid while working as a legal intern much like any private sector law clerk job, though I am not sure if they ran that program this year. There is also the 'for credit' summer externship program which is an unpaid version of the summer internship. The GLP and OYCP programs guarantee a JAG spot upon completion and commissioning through the AFROTC, whereas the internship/externship programs while undoubtedly helpful to a future application are only summer positions.

Use the search function in the forums to search for GLP or OYCP and there are some great posts which discuss these options.

[Patrick Bateman]

I'm very interested in AF JAG right now as a 0L. I'm thinking of pursuing the GLP program and applying after the first semester of 1L. According to the AF JAG website, students who have been accepted to JAG receive a guaranteed internship for 1L summer. Patrick, could you or anyone else shed some light on the details of this internship? Has anyone done this before? Is it paid, what do you do, etc. I've tried digging through the information on the AF page and this massive thread but haven't found anything yet.

Thanks,
acr

If by "guaranteed internship" with the GLP program you mean attending AFROTC field training then that is correct, however that is most certainly not a JAG internship. The actual AF internship is a different application process and program where you do get paid while working as a legal intern much like any private sector law clerk job, though I am not sure if they ran that program this year. There is also the 'for credit' summer externship program which is an unpaid version of the summer internship. The GLP and OYCP programs guarantee a JAG spot upon completion and commissioning through the AFROTC, whereas the internship/externship programs while undoubtedly helpful to a future application are only summer positions.

Use the search function in the forums to search for GLP or OYCP and there are some great posts which discuss these options.

I did not come through GLP so I don't know their commitments that well. If memory serves, however, you have one summer where you do your field training at Maxwell and the other summer you spend as an intern at a base legal office or within the HQ positions in DC. Your "intern" summer is effectively identical to the civilian interns through the Summer Internship Program. When I was a summer intern (through the official program), I was one of four. We had a FLEP, an ELP, and a USAFA cadet who selected a JAG office as her summer immersion experience (I don't know what that program is actually called).

In terms of pay and all that, I would give the JAX office a call. They are staffed with some great folks and they can answer any of the detailed questions for you.

[lawhaze]

Does the military drug test their summer interns?

I interned with the Army last summer and wasn't drug tested. Having said that, I echo Patrick Bateman's response.

[Jules07]

I'm very interested in AF JAG right now as a 0L. I'm thinking of pursuing the GLP program and applying after the first semester of 1L. According to the AF JAG website, students who have been accepted to JAG receive a guaranteed internship for 1L summer. Patrick, could you or anyone else shed some light on the details of this internship? Has anyone done this before? Is it paid, what do you do, etc. I've tried digging through the information on the AF page and this massive thread but haven't found anything yet.

Thanks,
acr

I was accepted as a 1L into the GLP (rising 3L here), and to echo what others have said – one summer is AFRTOC Field Training. I did that my 1L summer and also applied for the AF JAG internship, and was not selected. Instead, I interned with the Navy. Short story, there is no guaranteed summer internship with JAG but it's a great option to lock in the job if you're sure it's what you want. Getting a stipend by contracting through AFRTOC is also nice!

If you have any questions about applying, etc. feel free to shoot me a message.

[Patrick Bateman]

I'm very interested in AF JAG right now as a 0L. I'm thinking of pursuing the GLP program and applying after the first semester of 1L. According to the AF JAG website, students who have been accepted to JAG receive a guaranteed internship for 1L summer. Patrick, could you or anyone else shed some light on the details of this internship? Has anyone done this before? Is it paid, what do you do, etc. I've tried digging through the information on the AF page and this massive thread but haven't found anything yet.

Thanks,
acr

I was accepted as a 1L into the GLP (rising 3L here), and to echo what others have said – one summer is AFRTOC Field Training. I did that my 1L summer and also applied for the AF JAG internship, and was not selected. Instead, I interned with the Navy. Short story, there is no guaranteed summer internship with JAG but it's a great option to lock in the job if you're sure it's what you want. Getting a stipend by contracting through AFRTOC is also nice!

If you have any questions about applying, etc. feel free to shoot me a message.

I stand corrected - good to know.

[Runner2008]

Hi folks, I started out as a part-time student at a T3 school in the Midwest. I transitioned to full-time and just finished my 1L courses along with 15 credits of upper division courses.

My 1L class rank is in the top 2%, and overall class rank (incorporating the 2L classes) is in the top 5%. I have a Marine JA slot (I'm a prior officer). My question is whether it would be worth transferring to a T14 school (or a t1 school ranked in the top 35). To transfer to the T14, I would lose my 15 credits of upper level classes and incur an additional $80k in debt. To transfer to the T1, the money situation would be a wash, but I would have to commute 1.5 hrs twice a week to go to class for at least the first semester (family situation prevents moving). Additionally, I have a 6 credit internship at the city DA's office with the T3, I would lose that if I transfer to the T1 (I assume that's about the best on-the-job training that you can get pre-JAG).

Although I like the Marine Corps, I left my previous MOS because I got sick of the generalist-managerial role that officers assume as they gain rank. Well, after interning this summer, I've realized its not that different in the Judge Advocate world. Great trial experience and training right off the bat, but not much of an opportunity to specialize. Assuming that BigFed/DOJ offer opportunities a little bit more in-line with the ultimate goals, do you think transferring would be worthwhile to make sure that doors that might be shut to me with a T3 degree stay open?

I posted a similar question in the 'transfer or stay thread,' but the more discussion, the less the question felt like it belonged in the transfer forum and the more it felt like it belonged in the military law forum (mods, do what you will:). I would sure appreciate any feedback!

Good question - congrats on a great 1L.

Your assessment of career progression = generalist/manager within the JAG Corps is correct. I can only speak first hand to my Air Force experiences but I think there some fundamental things that transcend the service branches. This was a significant motivating factor in my decision to go into the reserves - there was no escaping that now that I was good in the courtroom, somewhere in my next 2 assignment, I was going to be put to pasture as a #2 at a medium sized legal office, doing mostly administrative work, and that I would be revisiting leadership roles as I advanced. No thanks.

Having made the leap to DOJ very recently, your law school pedigree (sadly) is going to make a significant difference. I was from a T25 and did not have a Federal clerkship -- that puts me in a very, very small minority within my Division. I got very lucky with a boss who does not buy into that nonsense (despite being a HYS grad herself) and their practical need for someone that had significant trial experience. That said, I've seen firsthand instances in which some attorneys wrote off an applicant outright based on their law school. My experiences may be a bit atypical in that I am in a white collar crime oriented area, which draws mostly from the Honors Program or laterals from well-established law firms - these folks all tend to be former clerks and T14 grads themselves, and so the cycle perpetuates itself. When you get away from the white collar practice areas, I know former (non T14) JAGs are more common (National Courts and National Security Division for example).

To tell you to take on $80K in additional debt for the potential of a DOJ job down the road sounds nuts when I say it out loud. That said, if BigFed is your true ambition, having a T14 JD will make you far more competitive. You are a strong candidate already with prior O experience and what will be some time as a JA (especially if you can spend all that time in the courtroom), so you are not necessarily foreclosing any opportunities, but the walk will be far more uphill.

Good luck!

Thanks Patrick Bateman. I appreciate the candid feedback. One of the first things the OIC here told me when I checked in was that Judge Advocates eventually funnel into two categories: the folks that want to try cases all the time and the folks that want to take more of a "leadership role". While the former usually get out after a tour or two, the latter are in it for the long hau. Ive noticed that in the military legal world, leadership = management. Unlike a lot of the rest of the military Lawyers are pretty self-motivating, and extraordinarily self-sufficient in comparison. This means your job as a leader in the JAG community is ever more administrative and managerial. "Being put to pasture" seems to accurately state how I would see being relegated to that sort of job (which is why I left my previous MOS).

I think I would have a really tough time stomaching the $80k though + extra 5 months in school though. If you don't mind, do you think going to another T1 regional school (30-35 ranking) would be worth the move? The money situation would be a wash (in-state tuition versus private tuition). I would just lose the class rank at my current school and law review. If don't really care so much about the actual flavor of law (i.e. white collar versus national courts versus natl security etc.), do you think the move would be helpful or would it not really make a difference?

Thanks very much for the feedback. I sure as hell don't like, or agree with the elitism, but I suppose it is what it is...thanks!

The extra debt is a very valid consideration. I went to my T25 for full sticker instead of a T2 with scholarship money because I was convinced I wanted BigLaw and my school's placement rate was solid. Having to deal with that debt as a junior officer and now a Fed civilian has not exactly been fun. I'm still a few years off from PSLF and while I'm comfortable, being able to keep that $500 a month loan repayment would make things a lot easier.

If you have been through this thread, there are a number of "what law school should I go to if I want to be selected as a JAG?" The answer there is always that you can't bet on getting selected, so pick the law school that sets you up best for your career plan B. That is probably the safest advice I can give - you have no guarantees that you will get selected for DOJ/BigFed or you may change your mind about where you want to work. That said, the complicating variable is that the JAG Corps does not care where you went to law school.

There are plenty of prior JAGs that work within the various DOJ entities - if that is your goal and you work smartly toward getting there, it is totally possible. You've already handled 1L and becoming a Marine officer - those are not small challenges that you have already surmounted.

The decision between your current T3 and the T1 is a tougher call - I keep changing my opinion on this. If the money is a wash and you can get to a more prestigious school, that is usually a good move. Giving up your GPA and all that is tough but you can write on to your new law review and you have already proven that you can take a law exam. With the benefit of hindsight and if it were me, I would make the jump to T1.

If Fed is your ultimate ambition, that path is far easier if you end up in the DC area. There are Field Offices in major cities and USAO is everywhere, but the vast majority of the jobs are in DC. I had a far easier time being in DC finding my job than my peers who wanted to stay in their cities. Just food for thought there. I would also go a dozen or so pages back where I had a few posts on post-JAG marketability. The things that sell for the legal Feds are trial experience, contracting/acquisitions/procurement, labor law, and information litigation. If you can get experience in one of those areas and make that your thing, you will have a solid subject matter background that you will be able to market effectively.

Thanks Patrick--great insight! I appreciate it.

[Anonymous User]

---

-So this is a bit general - does anyone have any general/random thoughts they'd be willing to share?
-I haven't seen much lately ITT about deployments; most of the info on that was from a few years back when things were obviously somewhat different wrt our presence overseas. How has that aspect changed, if at all, for Army/AF? Do Navy JAGs still rarely deploy in the first four years?
-Is it still the case that the AF tells you your duty station before you commission? I assume neither Army nor Navy are that way?
-Is Navy still the best place to go if you're primarily interested (as I am) in military justice, getting a lot of courtroom time, and serving as a SAUSA?
-There are obviously many, many differences between life as a civilian ADA and an active duty JA, but did anyone else make that choice at any point? I know at least a few folks in here were attracted to immediate courtroom experience, were there practice-based factors that steered you toward JAG instead of state level prosecution?
-I assume my wife's situation will have minimal bearing on where I end up assigned - i.e., "needs of [branch]" are always going to supersede, and my wife would need to follow me somewhere if we didn't want to LDR, right?

Thanks Sorry for the wall of text, and I hope I haven't asked anything that's been answered. I wish I could find a way to reliably search this thread, but the links created by a custom google search are broken since the thread was moved.

[howell]

-So this is a bit general - does anyone have any general/random thoughts they'd be willing to share?

Sure! AF JAG here, so my knowledge is limited to our service.

-I haven't seen much lately ITT about deployments; most of the info on that was from a few years back when things were obviously somewhat different wrt our presence overseas. How has that aspect changed, if at all, for Army/AF? Do Navy JAGs still rarely deploy in the first four years?

There seem to be a decent number of deployments available in the AF, but, on the other hand, there are several people who have made or will make it through their first 4 without deploying. It took me 2 years of raising my hand at every opportunity to get picked up for one, but some people were sent pretty quickly; it all depends on your assignment and how deployments are getting parsed out through the MAJCOM you're in.

Either way, deployments as an AF JAG are not bad. They're typically about 6 months (could be less). Year-long deployments are usually difficult to get, so you likely wouldn't get tapped for one of those any time in your first ~6 years. And we rarely do anything "dangerous." Other than the occasional JAG who gets assigned to a joint situation where the Marine/Army JAG above her doesn't know that we're barely trained to make our own beds, let alone be killing machines, we do legal work and face the most danger from travel between locations.

-Is it still the case that the AF tells you your duty station before you commission?

Yes, you would be told your duty station, and then you can accept that and commission or go on your merry way.

Something to consider is the timeline. If you were to apply to the October AF board and get accepted, you'd get accepted in mid-October (likely, but it could be later), and then you'd have to go through the medical clearance process before getting your assignment. It's very possible you wouldn't know your base by December, so your wife might have to make her residency decision without you knowing where you would go for your first assignment.

-Is Navy still the best place to go if you're primarily interested (as I am) in military justice, getting a lot of courtroom time, and serving as a SAUSA?

I don't know enough to compare with the Navy, but the AF is good for those things. If you really push it, you have a good chance of doing SAUSA work, and you will almost certainly get a lot of trial experience in your first 4 years. More on this later.

-There are obviously many, many differences between life as a civilian ADA and an active duty JA, but did anyone else make that choice at any point? I know at least a few folks in here were attracted to immediate courtroom experience, were there practice-based factors that steered you toward JAG instead of state level prosecution?

While reading your post, I kept thinking, "Has this person thought about seeking an ADA/PD job where the wife gets matched?" Based on your post, that's what I would vote for, but JAG would have its pros as well.

-I assume my wife's situation will have minimal bearing on where I end up assigned - i.e., "needs of [branch]" are always going to supersede, and my wife would need to follow me somewhere if we didn't want to LDR, right?

It will be a crapshoot. You could very easily get one of your top choices, but it really depends on timing that you can't control.


I mentioned above that you would get a lot of trial experience in the AF. This is partially because we don't have enough JAGs at base legal offices (which is where you would likely spend your first 4 years). Most base legal offices are way behind with their case load and have a lot of complex cases they're working through (sex assault cases). At offices where we would have 7-9 Captains just 5-10 years ago, we have 4-5 or fewer, and the case load and work required per case has gone up tremendously. Beyond that, you're lucky to have even 1 second assignment Captain, so it's mostly the blind leading the blind at the CGO level. This all leads to a lot of litigation/trial work, but it also leads to long hours. 12+ hour days are the norm at many base legal offices, and that's not just weekdays.

Also note that you're not going to spend all of your time doing legal work. We're training officers, so it's important that you run several programs that require no legal work, but instead have you herding cats who don't give a crap about what you're trying to do. So while the victims in your sexual assault cases are wondering WTF is taking so long, your boss is asking you for the latest TPS reports.

Leadership has said that they're going to increase accessions and put more experienced Captains back in base legal offices, but, even if that happens, it's going to take time to go into effect. Just know that "work-life balance" probably won't be better soon, at least in the AF.

[bouakedojo]

I mentioned above that you would get a lot of trial experience in the AF. This is partially because we don't have enough JAGs at base legal offices (which is where you would likely spend your first 4 years). Most base legal offices are way behind with their case load and have a lot of complex cases they're working through (sex assault cases). At offices where we would have 7-9 Captains just 5-10 years ago, we have 4-5 or fewer, and the case load and work required per case has gone up tremendously. Beyond that, you're lucky to have even 1 second assignment Captain, so it's mostly the blind leading the blind at the CGO level. This all leads to a lot of litigation/trial work, but it also leads to long hours. 12+ hour days are the norm at many base legal offices, and that's not just weekdays.

Also note that you're not going to spend all of your time doing legal work. We're training officers, so it's important that you run several programs that require no legal work, but instead have you herding cats who don't give a crap about what you're trying to do. So while the victims in your sexual assault cases are wondering WTF is taking so long, your boss is asking you for the latest TPS reports.

Leadership has said that they're going to increase accessions and put more experienced Captains back in base legal offices, but, even if that happens, it's going to take time to go into effect. Just know that "work-life balance" probably won't be better soon, at least in the AF.

This AF JAG speaks truth. I work more than BigLaw friends, although I am at a busy base. I've heard from others that it depends on your base.

[Anonymous User]

Sure! AF JAG here, so my knowledge is limited to our service.

Thanks!

There seem to be a decent number of deployments available in the AF, but, on the other hand, there are several people who have made or will make it through their first 4 without deploying. It took me 2 years of raising my hand at every opportunity to get picked up for one, but some people were sent pretty quickly; it all depends on your assignment and how deployments are getting parsed out through the MAJCOM you're in.

Either way, deployments as an AF JAG are not bad. They're typically about 6 months (could be less). Year-long deployments are usually difficult to get, so you likely wouldn't get tapped for one of those any time in your first ~6 years. And we rarely do anything "dangerous." Other than the occasional JAG who gets assigned to a joint situation where the Marine/Army JAG above her doesn't know that we're barely trained to make our own beds, let alone be killing machines, we do legal work and face the most danger from travel between locations.

Thanks, this is informative. Where are they sending you all these days? I gather some AF deployments are still going to Afghanistan(?), but where else? (FWIW I'm really far more concerned about being away from my wife than danger or anything like that, so the shorter AF deployments are appealing, though it seems like Navy is the place to go if you're worried about deploying in the first four...)

Yes, you would be told your duty station, and then you can accept that and commission or go on your merry way.

Thanks! Does anyone have any knowledge of how this works for Navy/Army?

Something to consider is the timeline. If you were to apply to the October AF board and get accepted, you'd get accepted in mid-October (likely, but it could be later), and then you'd have to go through the medical clearance process before getting your assignment. It's very possible you wouldn't know your base by December, so your wife might have to make her residency decision without you knowing where you would go for your first assignment.

Yeah, this had occurred to me because I was also considering applying for the fall Navy board (if they do DA at all this time around).

While reading your post, I kept thinking, "Has this person thought about seeking an ADA/PD job where the wife gets matched?" Based on your post, that's what I would vote for, but JAG would have its pros as well.

So, yeah - I definitely have considered that. There are a few things giving me pause. I'm not very excited about the prospect of having to take another bar and then look for a job with the possibility of basically ending up unemployed (it seems like most DA's offices won't even talk to you before you're barred in their jurisdiction). And the budgetary situation at the state level seems like it's still a disaster in a lot of places. Maybe someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but here are some advantages of JAG, at least from what I've managed to glean:
-More responsibility early on? This obviously depends a lot on the DA's office, but it seems like it's very easy to get stuck working speeding tickets and DUIs for a couple of years in a lot of places. On the JAG end, seems like military justice, even early on, involves more serious cases and actual investigative work? I'm sort of shooting in the dark here, but that's just my impression.
-It seems that exit opps are likely better and far less geographically restricted from JAG, especially for federal service. And I have to think it's generally viewed as a more impressive experience and credential.
-Less politics?
-Much better comp/benefits
-The chance to work on sensitive issues of national importance (i.e., there's a reason you don't need a TS to be an ADA)
(I'm sure some of this is stupid so please feel free to correct me)

I mentioned above that you would get a lot of trial experience in the AF. This is partially because we don't have enough JAGs at base legal offices (which is where you would likely spend your first 4 years). Most base legal offices are way behind with their case load and have a lot of complex cases they're working through (sex assault cases). At offices where we would have 7-9 Captains just 5-10 years ago, we have 4-5 or fewer, and the case load and work required per case has gone up tremendously. Beyond that, you're lucky to have even 1 second assignment Captain, so it's mostly the blind leading the blind at the CGO level. This all leads to a lot of litigation/trial work, but it also leads to long hours. 12+ hour days are the norm at many base legal offices, and that's not just weekdays.

Also note that you're not going to spend all of your time doing legal work. We're training officers, so it's important that you run several programs that require no legal work, but instead have you herding cats who don't give a crap about what you're trying to do. So while the victims in your sexual assault cases are wondering WTF is taking so long, your boss is asking you for the latest TPS reports.

Leadership has said that they're going to increase accessions and put more experienced Captains back in base legal offices, but, even if that happens, it's going to take time to go into effect. Just know that "work-life balance" probably won't be better soon, at least in the AF.

Thanks, this is really informative. It sounds challenging, but it also sounds fun.

This AF JAG speaks truth. I work more than BigLaw friends, although I am at a busy base. I've heard from others that it depends on your base.

To be abundantly clear, while the hours are part of why I want out, it's more about both working hard and being bored at the same time and the feeling that it's really for naught. I can absolutely deal with long hours as long as it's not the ridiculous sisyphean drudgery that I have now.

[howell]

Thanks, this is informative. Where are they sending you all these days? I gather some AF deployments are still going to Afghanistan(?), but where else? (FWIW I'm really far more concerned about being away from my wife than danger or anything like that, so the shorter AF deployments are appealing, though it seems like Navy is the place to go if you're worried about deploying in the first four...)

Most deployments are still going to southwest Asia/northeast Africa, and Afghanistan is definitely included. But most assignments tend to be at relatively established bases. I'm at a great location - the struggle tomorrow is that the pool is closed for cleaning. There are assignments in other places (South America, southeast Asia, etc.), but there are fewer of those.

A lot of us have good access to the Internet, so I could call/e-mail/Facetime my wife any day I wanted out here. This isn't true for all locations, but probably more than you think. That definitely helps with the time apart.

-More responsibility early on? This obviously depends a lot on the DA's office, but it seems like it's very easy to get stuck working speeding tickets and DUIs for a couple of years in a lot of places. On the JAG end, seems like military justice, even early on, involves more serious cases and actual investigative work? I'm sort of shooting in the dark here, but that's just my impression.

I can't compare/contrast the two well enough, but there is a lot of responsibility early on. Not just from what's dumped on you, but from what you can take for yourself. I tried my first sex assault case to a jury 6 months out of training. Any part of the case/trial would likely have been open to me if I put in the work and showed that I could do it. There's a lot of opportunity.

-It seems that exit opps are likely better and far less geographically restricted from JAG, especially for federal service. And I have to think it's generally viewed as a more impressive experience and credential.

I think you're right about the exit opportunities. Certainly it depends on what you get your hands on in the JAG Corps, but I would imagine you would have more flexibility.

-Less politics?

Probably, but that says more about what I think would be involved in being an ADA. There are definitely politics in the AF JAG Corps, and it's not a pure meritocracy by any means. It's more about who you can convince that you're a golden child. Many of the golden children will tell you this.

-Much better comp/benefits

Probably, yes. Your wife's salary will put you in a different boat than most JAGs, but we generally murder the IRS. I'd have to be making ~$100k in the private sector in flyover country to get the same take-home income/benefits (and that's not factoring in the possibility of the retirement benefit).

-The chance to work on sensitive issues of national importance (i.e., there's a reason you don't need a TS to be an ADA)

This, or rather meaningful and/or unique work, is a big draw for me. Sometimes we work on issues that civilians would never get their hands on. That's pretty cool. But there are plenty of TPS reports too.

The training can also be fun. Certainly some of it is death by PowerPoint, but getting sent to study a subject for 1-2 weeks at a cool location is probably something you don't get to do much at a law firm.

[shintopig]

Yes, you would be told your duty station, and then you can accept that and commission or go on your merry way.

Thanks! Does anyone have any knowledge of how this works for Navy/Army?

-Is it still the case that the AF tells you your duty station before you commission? I assume neither Army nor Navy are that way?

Recently, accepted USN SP here. Technically commissioned, but awaiting detailing.

So, for SP (student program) I was accepted in December, commissioned last month (May) and I still don't know where I'm going for my first assignment. So I've signed my service agreement & been commissioned, but all I know is that likely the USN will send me to 1 of my 6 preferred duty locations.

As far as I know DA (direct applicants) undergo more-or-less the same order of events; eg. you won't know where you're going until you sign. Check out the DA Website (http://www.jag.navy.mil/careers_/career ... es_da.html)

-Is Navy still the best place to go if you're primarily interested (as I am) in military justice, getting a lot of courtroom time, and serving as a SAUSA?

I cannot answer this in full (yet).

But, I would just add that AR & AF JAs have the option to handle government contracting. I know several AF JAs who review gov't contracts or defend bid protests etc. I was exposed to it a bit during my AF internship 2L year.

USN JAs don't really do this, the OGC (Office of General Counsel) handles contracting for the USN. This is the civilian wing of the Navy's legal force. I made the mistake of referencing an interest in contracting as a JA in my USN interview, only to have my interviewing officers correct my mistake. USN JAs focus more on advocacy & legal assistance.

So USN JAs have one less area to handle there than their AR & AF counterparts. Take what you will from that.

[howell]

USN JAs focus more on advocacy & legal assistance.

I keep hearing that you guys get a lot more ops law experience as well. That seems to be a dirty little secret no one tells us, because I've had several AF JAGS get disappointed when they find out ops experience isn't really that plentiful for us.