Apply Now With a 163 or Wait till Oct?

clint4law
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Apply Now With a 163 or Wait till Oct?

Postby clint4law » Sun Aug 30, 2009 2:21 am

I'm in a small dilemma. I took the June LSAT and received a 163 (5 points below my PT average). I took my first PT since June yesterday and received a 172. I plan on taking 2 PT's/week until game day (September LSAT). My question is assuming I can pull a167+ in September is it best to wait until then to apply or should I apply to my safeties now?

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James Bond
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Re: Apply Now With a 163 or Wait till Oct?

Postby James Bond » Sun Aug 30, 2009 2:25 am

give up the dream man. hang up the saddle. Or...in poem form...

If you only score a One-sixty-three,
You'll wind up at a poor triple-T.
Your prospects will shrink,
your earnings will stink,
and you'll never end up on TV

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FacePalm
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Re: Apply Now With a 163 or Wait till Oct?

Postby FacePalm » Sun Aug 30, 2009 11:30 am

clint4law wrote:I'm in a small dilemma. I took the June LSAT and received a 163 (5 points below my PT average). I took my first PT since June yesterday and received a 172. I plan on taking 2 PT's/week until game day (September LSAT). My question is assuming I can pull a167+ in September is it best to wait until then to apply or should I apply to my safeties now?


Wait. October is still early. Make sure everything else is ready to go (LORs, transcripts, etc). Apply as soon as you get your scores.

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doinmybest
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Re: Apply Now With a 163 or Wait till Oct?

Postby doinmybest » Sun Aug 30, 2009 11:41 am

clint4law wrote:I'm in a small dilemma. I took the June LSAT and received a 163 (5 points below my PT average). I took my first PT since June yesterday and received a 172. I plan on taking 2 PT's/week until game day (September LSAT). My question is assuming I can pull a167+ in September is it best to wait until then to apply or should I apply to my safeties now?


Make sure you don't plan on applying to any of the few schools that still average LSAT scores.

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pearl_earrings
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Re: Apply Now With a 163 or Wait till Oct?

Postby pearl_earrings » Sun Aug 30, 2009 12:35 pm

I'm in a similar situation (ended up with a 162 in June, which was a few points below my average PT scores) and I decided to wait until October to submit my applications. Let's just hope our scores jump like we know they can!

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Kronk
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Re: Apply Now With a 163 or Wait till Oct?

Postby Kronk » Sun Aug 30, 2009 1:04 pm

doinmybest wrote:Make sure you don't plan on applying to any of the few schools that still average LSAT scores.


These don't exist.

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doinmybest
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Re: Apply Now With a 163 or Wait till Oct?

Postby doinmybest » Sun Aug 30, 2009 1:23 pm

VoidSix wrote:
doinmybest wrote:Make sure you don't plan on applying to any of the few schools that still average LSAT scores.


These don't exist.


This is a common misconception.

I happen to have a chart I got from this site :)

Here is a list of schools that still average LSAT scores along with a link from their websites showing that they average.

NYU - http://www.law.nyu.edu/admissions/jdadm ... ndex.htm#7
Berkeley - http://www.law.berkeley.edu/47.htm#Q4
Georgetown - http://www.law.georgetown.edu/Admissions/JDFAQs.htm
U Washington - http://www.law.washington.edu/admission ... AT#AVERAGE
U San Francisco - --LinkRemoved--
University of Maine - --LinkRemoved--

Also you have to take into consideration there are many schools who view multiple LSATs equally. They take a holistic approach.
However, the majority of schools do take the highest. But its always best to check each school's policy on their website or e-mail each school rather than assuming everyone will take your highest.

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Kronk
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Re: Apply Now With a 163 or Wait till Oct?

Postby Kronk » Sun Aug 30, 2009 3:02 pm

Yeah. But search on LSN for multiple LSATs at those schools. There is virtually no difference in acceptance rates for multiple LSAT candidates and single LSAT candidates.

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Kronk
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Re: Apply Now With a 163 or Wait till Oct?

Postby Kronk » Sun Aug 30, 2009 3:07 pm

Also, that Berkeley link never says they average LSAT scores. And the interview with Dean Tom that is linked on the front page of TLS says they take the highest score, and that they realize some people have an off testing day.

I realize some schools say they still average, but the statistical evidence strongly suggests otherwise. I know of NYU rejecting one person because of multiple LSAT, but the caveat is that the second LSAT was in February of the application cycle, and the latest LSAT NYU will look at is a December one. Otherwise, people above their 75ths in both categories are essentially autoadmits, regardless of whether or not they've taken the LSAT once or more. http://www.hourumd.com/?lsat=173&gpa=3. ... o&range=no Notice NYU's 67-0 acceptance / decline ratio.

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IHaveDietMoxie
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Re: Apply Now With a 163 or Wait till Oct?

Postby IHaveDietMoxie » Sun Aug 30, 2009 3:20 pm

doinmybest wrote:
VoidSix wrote:
doinmybest wrote:Make sure you don't plan on applying to any of the few schools that still average LSAT scores.


These don't exist.


This is a common misconception.

I happen to have a chart I got from this site :)

Here is a list of schools that say they still average LSAT scores in order to up their prestige but when it comes down to it don't really care if you took it twice along with a link from their websites showing that say they average.

NYU - http://www.law.nyu.edu/admissions/jdadm ... ndex.htm#7
Berkeley - http://www.law.berkeley.edu/47.htm#Q4
Georgetown - http://www.law.georgetown.edu/Admissions/JDFAQs.htm
U Washington - http://www.law.washington.edu/admission ... AT#AVERAGE
U San Francisco - --LinkRemoved--
University of Maine - --LinkRemoved--

Also you have to take into consideration there are many schools who view multiple LSATs equally. They take a holistic approach.
However, the majority of schools do take the highest. But its always best to check each school's policy on their website or e-mail each school rather than assuming everyone will take your highest.

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doinmybest
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Re: Apply Now With a 163 or Wait till Oct?

Postby doinmybest » Sun Aug 30, 2009 4:58 pm

VoidSix wrote:Also, that Berkeley link never says they average LSAT scores.


RC Fail

link to Berkeley Website wrote:How important is the LSAT?

The LSAT score is a very important admission factor. When combined with the undergraduate GPA, it provides the best indication of academic achievement and potential. You should retake the test only if you feel confident that your first score was atypical and that you can improve your score sufficiently to make a net gain. Most candidates take the test only once. If you take the test more than once, we will use your average score in most cases. We recognize that there is no statistical significance to a score gain or loss of a few points within the standard deviation for the test. We do not make admissions decisions based solely on LSAT score. We take all factors into consideration.


If they average in most cases, it must be true that they take the average LSAT for some people.

VoidSix wrote:Yeah. But search on LSN for multiple LSATs at those schools.


There is no way to know if people are telling the truth on LSN. I could on LSN right now and create a profile with 6 LSAT scores and list myself as admitted.

Additionally, the hourumd.com data is based off of LSN profiles. So it is just as reliable.

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Kronk
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Re: Apply Now With a 163 or Wait till Oct?

Postby Kronk » Sun Aug 30, 2009 5:03 pm

Okay. You're correct that I missed that part of the webpage. I basically gave it a quick glance, because I knew that Berkeley uses the higher score. The site is strangely outdated.

From the interview with Dean Tom of Berkeley:

Poor LSAT Score

TLS: For college seniors who take the LSAT in the fall and are unhappy with their original score, would you recommend applying as early as possible anyway, or should they retake the test and apply?

Dean Tom: “They should apply as early as possible anyway, and then retake the LSAT later on. There is a space on our application form for applicants to indicate when they have taken or will take the LSAT, and so that tells my staff to hold the file open.”

TLS: And Boalt just recently changed their policy to taking the highest LSAT score, that’s a recent development, right?

Dean Tom: “Exactly.”

TLS: This reflects the recent ABA ruling where they will now take applicant’s highest of multiple LSAT scores whereas before they averaged multiple scores.

Dean Tom: “Correct.”

TLS: I think that’s good. Before this change there was just so much pressure on that test day.

Dean Tom: “Right. And now we take the higher of the scores. I’d also like to add that I’ve been doing admissions for almost 30 years. I still haven’t been able to determine how 2 numbers alone, the GPA and LSAT, can identify whether applicants have a passion for justice, determination, leadership ability, academic curiosity, compassion for others, or that they can relate well with people.”

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doinmybest
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Re: Apply Now With a 163 or Wait till Oct?

Postby doinmybest » Sun Aug 30, 2009 5:04 pm

IHaveDietMoxie wrote: say they still average LSAT scores in order to up their prestige but when it comes down to it don't really care if you took it twice along with a link from their websites showing that say they average.


I believe what you are implying is true. However, it is wiser to act as if the stated admissions policy for a law school is true, rather than base your admissions cycle on an assumption that is unverifiable.

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doinmybest
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Re: Apply Now With a 163 or Wait till Oct?

Postby doinmybest » Sun Aug 30, 2009 5:06 pm

VoidSix wrote:Okay. You're correct that I missed that part of the webpage. I basically gave it a quick glance, because I knew that Berkeley uses the higher score. The site is strangely outdated.

From the interview with Dean Tom of Berkeley:

Poor LSAT Score

TLS: For college seniors who take the LSAT in the fall and are unhappy with their original score, would you recommend applying as early as possible anyway, or should they retake the test and apply?

Dean Tom: “They should apply as early as possible anyway, and then retake the LSAT later on. There is a space on our application form for applicants to indicate when they have taken or will take the LSAT, and so that tells my staff to hold the file open.”

TLS: And Boalt just recently changed their policy to taking the highest LSAT score, that’s a recent development, right?

Dean Tom: “Exactly.”

TLS: This reflects the recent ABA ruling where they will now take applicant’s highest of multiple LSAT scores whereas before they averaged multiple scores.

Dean Tom: “Correct.”

TLS: I think that’s good. Before this change there was just so much pressure on that test day.

Dean Tom: “Right. And now we take the higher of the scores. I’d also like to add that I’ve been doing admissions for almost 30 years. I still haven’t been able to determine how 2 numbers alone, the GPA and LSAT, can identify whether applicants have a passion for justice, determination, leadership ability, academic curiosity, compassion for others, or that they can relate well with people.”


Someone should e-mail the dean and get clarification on the school's policy. If nothing else to alert him that he was misquoted/misunderstood or that the website is incorrect.

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Kronk
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Re: Apply Now With a 163 or Wait till Oct?

Postby Kronk » Sun Aug 30, 2009 5:12 pm

I understand where you're coming from based on LSN profiles. But I know many people personally who've had absolutely no trouble getting into NYU with multiple LSAT scores. Most of them would've been a clear out if they had used the average.


It's really just a logic thing. USNWR rankings are a large determinant in how applicants view the prestige of law schools. Arguably, this is why Yale gets most of the cross-admits from Harvard and Stanford despite the fact that peer assessment scores rank Harvard ahead of or equal to Yale, and their staff is arguably better. Thus, a school wants their USNWR ranking to be as high as possible--that is why many schools "game" the ranking system. One of the things USNWR ranks on is strength of the student body based on LSAT and GPA. So if you're NYU, and you have two applicants, all else equal except that one that got a 170 on his / her LSAT, and another that got a 163 and a 173, for an average of 168, it would be detrimental to the future of your law school to accept the 170 applicant. NYU only has to report the highest score, so why not take the 173 applicant? Averaging LSATs is completely illogical, and despite the official "policy" of a school, anecdotal evidence has proven time and time again that it rarely is an issue. We have a multiple-LSAT results thread going here on TLS where I've posted a number of TLS users I know that have been accepted at Yale, Stanford, and Harvard with multiple LSATs (some as drastic as 161-175, an average of 168 and thus totally below the standard of HYS).


I am not trying to be mean. But if I were the OP I would just go ahead and apply if they want to go to the school. There isn't any evidence in the last two or three cycles that shows schools are still using an average, so to not apply would be bad advice in my opinion.

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doinmybest
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Re: Apply Now With a 163 or Wait till Oct?

Postby doinmybest » Sun Aug 30, 2009 8:33 pm

VoidSix wrote:I understand where you're coming from based on LSN profiles. But I know many people personally who've had absolutely no trouble getting into NYU with multiple LSAT scores. Most of them would've been a clear out if they had used the average.


It's really just a logic thing. USNWR rankings are a large determinant in how applicants view the prestige of law schools. Arguably, this is why Yale gets most of the cross-admits from Harvard and Stanford despite the fact that peer assessment scores rank Harvard ahead of or equal to Yale, and their staff is arguably better. Thus, a school wants their USNWR ranking to be as high as possible--that is why many schools "game" the ranking system. One of the things USNWR ranks on is strength of the student body based on LSAT and GPA. So if you're NYU, and you have two applicants, all else equal except that one that got a 170 on his / her LSAT, and another that got a 163 and a 173, for an average of 168, it would be detrimental to the future of your law school to accept the 170 applicant. NYU only has to report the highest score, so why not take the 173 applicant? Averaging LSATs is completely illogical, and despite the official "policy" of a school, anecdotal evidence has proven time and time again that it rarely is an issue. We have a multiple-LSAT results thread going here on TLS where I've posted a number of TLS users I know that have been accepted at Yale, Stanford, and Harvard with multiple LSATs (some as drastic as 161-175, an average of 168 and thus totally below the standard of HYS).


I am not trying to be mean. But if I were the OP I would just go ahead and apply if they want to go to the school. There isn't any evidence in the last two or three cycles that shows schools are still using an average, so to not apply would be bad advice in my opinion.


I agree OP should apply regardless. We don't even know if the OP is applying to any of the schools in question. Oh well I think we scared him/her off anyway.

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IHaveDietMoxie
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Re: Apply Now With a 163 or Wait till Oct?

Postby IHaveDietMoxie » Sun Aug 30, 2009 11:24 pm

doinmybest wrote:
IHaveDietMoxie wrote: say they still average LSAT scores in order to up their prestige but when it comes down to it don't really care if you took it twice along with a link from their websites showing that say they average.


I believe what you are implying is true. However, it is wiser to act as if the stated admissions policy for a law school is true, rather than base your admissions cycle on an assumption that is unverifiable.

If by "act" you are referring to how/whether one might apply to a given school, then its better to err on the side of things working out. In one case you're out $75-200, in the other you miss out on a better school.

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pearl_earrings
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Re: Apply Now With a 163 or Wait till Oct?

Postby pearl_earrings » Tue Aug 17, 2010 4:40 pm

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