June 2017 Waiters Thread- Grayday! -9 curve. GL all

Prepare for the LSAT or discuss it with others in this forum.

What did you get? (Presumptive release day poll. Revolting enabled)

177+
7
5%
175+
6
4%
173+
21
15%
170+
25
18%
167+
27
19%
165+
16
11%
163+
14
10%
160+
8
6%
159 -
16
11%
 
Total votes: 140

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heyduchess

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Re: June 2017 Waiters Thread- Dowsing for 180s

Postby heyduchess » Tue Jun 20, 2017 8:12 pm

Alexandros wrote:
Platopus wrote:0 sympathy for students at TTT's. There are so many resources available for free, that it completely blows my mind that some people don't even put in the slightest effort to verify facts and interpret data, or worse: willfully ignore data and assume they will be special. I don't even want to get started about the LSAT. I tried relentlessly to talk an ex-girlfriend from attending Depaul at sticker, but she refused to even hear what the bar passage rate was, and she be came infuriated when I asked her how she planned on servicing $200K in debt.

Also, I am very skeptical of the claim that law schools are predatory. Unless, like U of Illinois, they are blatantly falsifying data and misrepresenting facts, then it falls on the student for either 1) not checking the data or 2) falling to accurately make sense of the data. Bar passage rates are a required disclosure. Scholarship stipulations are given to you clearly before you attend. Employment statistics are only misleading if you fail to do your due diligence in actually interpreting the data. Skittles aren't predatory for claiming they are "Fat Free", because they are, you're an idiot if you fail to consider that 50 grams of sugar may also make you fat. Same goes for law schools. A 68% employment rate is a factual statement if 68% of students are employed, even if only 5% have actual legal jobs; it's your fault if you fail to make that distinction, and these distinctions are widely available through the internet.

Sure, I was a bit lucky finding TLS my senior year in high school. But before TLS I read Richard Montauk's "How to get into Top Law Schools", and then I went online to actually verify that this guy was telling the truth, and he was. So I got my act together and studied my ass off in college because I read a book I independently verified to have factual information, and then applied myself. The moment my pre-law advisor mentioned Princeton Law, I was skeptical because I hadn't ever heard of Princeton law. After spending .02 seconds googling Princeton Law, I realized this guy was an idiot and subsequently discarded the rest of his advice.

/rantover

Law schools are educational institutions, not skittles. There are, and will always be, people who fall for traps. Law schools should provide education, not take advantage of those least able to make informed decisions.


tbh, if you're not doing research and making logical decisions when choosing a school, you'll probably have a tricky time being a lawyer. just my two cents.

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MediocreAtBest

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Re: June 2017 Waiters Thread- Dowsing for 180s

Postby MediocreAtBest » Tue Jun 20, 2017 8:15 pm

Platopus wrote:0 sympathy for students at TTT's. There are so many resources available for free, that it completely blows my mind that some people don't even put in the slightest effort to verify facts and interpret data, or worse: willfully ignore data and assume they will be special. I don't even want to get started about the LSAT. I tried relentlessly to talk an ex-girlfriend from attending Depaul at sticker, but she refused to even hear what the bar passage rate was, and she be came infuriated when I asked her how she planned on servicing $200K in debt.

Also, I am very skeptical of the claim that law schools are predatory. Unless, like U of Illinois, they are blatantly falsifying data and misrepresenting facts, then it falls on the student for either 1) not checking the data or 2) falling to accurately make sense of the data. Bar passage rates are a required disclosure. Scholarship stipulations are given to you clearly before you attend. Employment statistics are only misleading if you fail to do your due diligence in actually interpreting the data. Skittles aren't predatory for claiming they are "Fat Free", because they are, you're an idiot if you fail to consider that 50 grams of sugar may also make you fat. Same goes for law schools. A 68% employment rate is a factual statement if 68% of students are employed, even if only 5% have actual legal jobs; it's your fault if you fail to make that distinction, and these distinctions are widely available through the internet.

Sure, I was a bit lucky finding TLS my senior year in high school. But before TLS I read Richard Montauk's "How to get into Top Law Schools", and then I went online to actually verify that this guy was telling the truth, and he was. So I got my act together and studied my ass off in college because I read a book I independently verified to have factual information, and then applied myself. The moment my pre-law advisor mentioned Princeton Law, I was skeptical because I hadn't ever heard of Princeton law. After spending .02 seconds googling Princeton Law, I realized this guy was an idiot and subsequently discarded the rest of his advice.

/rantover


I think it's predatory when a school ranked in the triple digits can have a six-figure COA because they know they can rely on loans that young people can be prone to take, or when they hire their own graduates to temporarily boost their employment numbers. Not everyone is going to sift through every school's ABA disclosures and cross-reference all the information they get, and maybe this actually plays into your argument, but I think these things are made more complicated than they need to be simply to attract people who probably shouldn't go to law school, particularly in TTTs and below. Skittles are Skittles, but selling yourself as a place of higher learning that will provide candidates with amazing job prospects while knowing you're providing no such thing is just unsavory. It's why the term "trap schools" even exists.

There's just a slimy element to law schools that prevents me from blaming someone 100% for making a mistake when it comes to attending one.

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chargers21

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Re: June 2017 Waiters Thread- Dowsing for 180s

Postby chargers21 » Tue Jun 20, 2017 8:18 pm

amta wrote:lol. didn't someone call me out for elitism like a week ago.

T13 or t14? :lol:

Alexandros

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Re: June 2017 Waiters Thread- Dowsing for 180s

Postby Alexandros » Tue Jun 20, 2017 8:18 pm

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Last edited by Alexandros on Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

mmorrell94

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Re: June 2017 Waiters Thread- Dowsing for 180s

Postby mmorrell94 » Tue Jun 20, 2017 8:37 pm

calmike wrote:Ive been playing Friday the 13th The game the past week to relieve my stress.



how is it???

Slippin' Jimmy

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Re: June 2017 Waiters Thread- Dowsing for 180s

Postby Slippin' Jimmy » Tue Jun 20, 2017 8:49 pm

chargers21 wrote:
amta wrote:lol. didn't someone call me out for elitism like a week ago.

T13 or t14? :lol:

T12, Cornell isn't even a real Ivy.

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amta

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Re: June 2017 Waiters Thread- Dowsing for 180s

Postby amta » Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:03 pm

chargers21 wrote:
amta wrote:lol. didn't someone call me out for elitism like a week ago.

T13 or t14? :lol:


t14. obviously.

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chargers21

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Re: June 2017 Waiters Thread- Dowsing for 180s

Postby chargers21 » Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:14 pm

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Last edited by chargers21 on Sat Aug 19, 2017 12:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

NavyNuke

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Re: June 2017 Waiters Thread- Dowsing for 180s

Postby NavyNuke » Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:17 pm

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Last edited by NavyNuke on Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Platopus

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Re: June 2017 Waiters Thread- Dowsing for 180s

Postby Platopus » Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:00 pm

MediocreAtBest wrote:
Platopus wrote:0 sympathy for students at TTT's. There are so many resources available for free, that it completely blows my mind that some people don't even put in the slightest effort to verify facts and interpret data, or worse: willfully ignore data and assume they will be special. I don't even want to get started about the LSAT. I tried relentlessly to talk an ex-girlfriend from attending Depaul at sticker, but she refused to even hear what the bar passage rate was, and she be came infuriated when I asked her how she planned on servicing $200K in debt.

Also, I am very skeptical of the claim that law schools are predatory. Unless, like U of Illinois, they are blatantly falsifying data and misrepresenting facts, then it falls on the student for either 1) not checking the data or 2) falling to accurately make sense of the data. Bar passage rates are a required disclosure. Scholarship stipulations are given to you clearly before you attend. Employment statistics are only misleading if you fail to do your due diligence in actually interpreting the data. Skittles aren't predatory for claiming they are "Fat Free", because they are, you're an idiot if you fail to consider that 50 grams of sugar may also make you fat. Same goes for law schools. A 68% employment rate is a factual statement if 68% of students are employed, even if only 5% have actual legal jobs; it's your fault if you fail to make that distinction, and these distinctions are widely available through the internet.

Sure, I was a bit lucky finding TLS my senior year in high school. But before TLS I read Richard Montauk's "How to get into Top Law Schools", and then I went online to actually verify that this guy was telling the truth, and he was. So I got my act together and studied my ass off in college because I read a book I independently verified to have factual information, and then applied myself. The moment my pre-law advisor mentioned Princeton Law, I was skeptical because I hadn't ever heard of Princeton law. After spending .02 seconds googling Princeton Law, I realized this guy was an idiot and subsequently discarded the rest of his advice.

/rantover


I think it's predatory when a school ranked in the triple digits can have a six-figure COA because they know they can rely on loans that young people can be prone to take, or when they hire their own graduates to temporarily boost their employment numbers. Not everyone is going to sift through every school's ABA disclosures and cross-reference all the information they get, and maybe this actually plays into your argument, but I think these things are made more complicated than they need to be simply to attract people who probably shouldn't go to law school, particularly in TTTs and below. Skittles are Skittles, but selling yourself as a place of higher learning that will provide candidates with amazing job prospects while knowing you're providing no such thing is just unsavory. It's why the term "trap schools" even exists.

There's just a slimy element to law schools that prevents me from blaming someone 100% for making a mistake when it comes to attending one.


Perhaps I'm underestimating the implicit promises that some schools make, that said, I also think people have a responsibility to evaluate the source of the promise. A Director of Admissions should be fired if she/he isn't actively promoting the best the school can offer. I think you make a good point regarding the COA, but I see this a more global issue with law schools in general; Harvard also charges ridiculous amounts because they know people are willing to pay the price, but it's probably a bit of a stretch to call Harvard predatory.

Alexandros

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Re: June 2017 Waiters Thread- Dowsing for 180s

Postby Alexandros » Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:21 pm

.
Last edited by Alexandros on Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

rowdy

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Re: June 2017 Waiters Thread- Dowsing for 180s

Postby rowdy » Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:56 pm

NavyNuke wrote:I have now written the first draft of my ps and resume, requested my 3 LORs, and watched both seasons of Master of None. Time to commence repeated email and LSAC page refreshing.


You're making the rest of us look like slackers. I've only made it through the first season.

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Platopus

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Re: June 2017 Waiters Thread- Dowsing for 180s

Postby Platopus » Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:25 pm

Alexandros wrote:
Platopus wrote:
MediocreAtBest wrote:
Platopus wrote:0 sympathy for students at TTT's. There are so many resources available for free, that it completely blows my mind that some people don't even put in the slightest effort to verify facts and interpret data, or worse: willfully ignore data and assume they will be special. I don't even want to get started about the LSAT. I tried relentlessly to talk an ex-girlfriend from attending Depaul at sticker, but she refused to even hear what the bar passage rate was, and she be came infuriated when I asked her how she planned on servicing $200K in debt.

Also, I am very skeptical of the claim that law schools are predatory. Unless, like U of Illinois, they are blatantly falsifying data and misrepresenting facts, then it falls on the student for either 1) not checking the data or 2) falling to accurately make sense of the data. Bar passage rates are a required disclosure. Scholarship stipulations are given to you clearly before you attend. Employment statistics are only misleading if you fail to do your due diligence in actually interpreting the data. Skittles aren't predatory for claiming they are "Fat Free", because they are, you're an idiot if you fail to consider that 50 grams of sugar may also make you fat. Same goes for law schools. A 68% employment rate is a factual statement if 68% of students are employed, even if only 5% have actual legal jobs; it's your fault if you fail to make that distinction, and these distinctions are widely available through the internet.

Sure, I was a bit lucky finding TLS my senior year in high school. But before TLS I read Richard Montauk's "How to get into Top Law Schools", and then I went online to actually verify that this guy was telling the truth, and he was. So I got my act together and studied my ass off in college because I read a book I independently verified to have factual information, and then applied myself. The moment my pre-law advisor mentioned Princeton Law, I was skeptical because I hadn't ever heard of Princeton law. After spending .02 seconds googling Princeton Law, I realized this guy was an idiot and subsequently discarded the rest of his advice.

/rantover


I think it's predatory when a school ranked in the triple digits can have a six-figure COA because they know they can rely on loans that young people can be prone to take, or when they hire their own graduates to temporarily boost their employment numbers. Not everyone is going to sift through every school's ABA disclosures and cross-reference all the information they get, and maybe this actually plays into your argument, but I think these things are made more complicated than they need to be simply to attract people who probably shouldn't go to law school, particularly in TTTs and below. Skittles are Skittles, but selling yourself as a place of higher learning that will provide candidates with amazing job prospects while knowing you're providing no such thing is just unsavory. It's why the term "trap schools" even exists.

There's just a slimy element to law schools that prevents me from blaming someone 100% for making a mistake when it comes to attending one.


Perhaps I'm underestimating the implicit promises that some schools make, that said, I also think people have a responsibility to evaluate the source of the promise. A Director of Admissions should be fired if she/he isn't actively promoting the best the school can offer. I think you make a good point regarding the COA, but I see this a more global issue with law schools in general; Harvard also charges ridiculous amounts because they know people are willing to pay the price, but it's probably a bit of a stretch to call Harvard predatory.

There's a huge difference between a high COA and a degree that provides the opportunity to be employed as a lawyer and pay off the debt incurred, and a high COA for a useless degree. That's an absurd comparison.

You're right - A Director of Admissions should be fired for not doing their job. And a law school that can't do its job as a law school shouldn't be one.


Yeah, I agree. I'm conceding that the COA argument is a good one. I guess my point is that there's something more to a school being predatory than just the high COA.

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Platopus

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Re: June 2017 Waiters Thread- Dowsing for 180s

Postby Platopus » Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:26 pm

amta wrote:lol. didn't someone call me out for elitism like a week ago.


Fair enough, I guess I am being a little (read: very) hypocritical here.

Alexandros

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Re: June 2017 Waiters Thread- Dowsing for 180s

Postby Alexandros » Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:32 pm

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Last edited by Alexandros on Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Platopus

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Re: June 2017 Waiters Thread- Dowsing for 180s

Postby Platopus » Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:40 pm

Alexandros wrote:High COA combined with low odds of working as a lawyer and making up for the cost of the degree.'


I think too, that a school needs at least an element of deception to be considered predatory. If a school is super transparent about placements/job outcomes, which few, if any actually are, then I think it's a little trickier to explicitly label a school as predatory.

Alexandros

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Re: June 2017 Waiters Thread- Dowsing for 180s

Postby Alexandros » Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:52 pm

.
Last edited by Alexandros on Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Platopus

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Re: June 2017 Waiters Thread- Dowsing for 180s

Postby Platopus » Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:58 pm

Alexandros wrote:I don't think any are, so this seems like a purely philosophical point. But even a perfectly transparent law school that meets the criteria above shouldn't exist - whether that makes it "predatory" or not is a matter of semantics.


Yeah it probably is a moot point in reality. And agreed, the legal market is saturated, and a good number of schools should probably shut down.

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HenryHankPalmer

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Re: June 2017 Waiters Thread- Dowsing for 180s

Postby HenryHankPalmer » Wed Jun 21, 2017 12:03 am

I think a little elitism is fine when $200K is on the line. I can't help but laugh internally whenever someone asks me why I'm not interested in UNT-Dallas, St, Mary's U, whatever other TTT. A couple months ago, a friend of my girlfriend who answers phones for a firm that handles collections and foreclosures grilled me over why I would want to go somewhere like UT or Duke or even SMU whenever Texas A&M law school is in Fort Worth and is "a great school."

If it wasn't for TLS, I would still think that Baylor is the best law school in Texas because my neighbor growing up was an alumni.

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it's allgood

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Re: June 2017 Waiters Thread- Dowsing for 180s

Postby it's allgood » Wed Jun 21, 2017 7:03 am

Please don't kill me for asking this, but what does TTT mean????

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QueenBAYder

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Re: June 2017 Waiters Thread- Dowsing for 180s

Postby QueenBAYder » Wed Jun 21, 2017 8:33 am

I woke up and my watch still said it was June 20th....the universe is screwing with me now, just for laughs

Slippin' Jimmy

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Re: June 2017 Waiters Thread- Dowsing for 180s

Postby Slippin' Jimmy » Wed Jun 21, 2017 8:38 am

it's allgood wrote:Please don't kill me for asking this, but what does TTT mean????

3rd tier toilet.

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principalagent

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Re: June 2017 Waiters Thread- Dowsing for 180s

Postby principalagent » Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:11 am

I've now had two LSAT dreams in a row. Two nights ago, I dreamt I got a 167 :roll: and last night, I had a dream where I didn't write my essay on the response sheet, and didn't figure it out until I had a couple of minutes left and gave up.

I need these damn scores to come out.

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it's allgood

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Re: June 2017 Waiters Thread- Dowsing for 180s

Postby it's allgood » Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:19 am

Slippin' Jimmy wrote:
it's allgood wrote:Please don't kill me for asking this, but what does TTT mean????

3rd tier toilet.


Oh jeeze. I thought it meant bad -- but that really is a great descriptor! Thank for letting me know!

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HenryHankPalmer

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Re: June 2017 Waiters Thread- Dowsing for 180s

Postby HenryHankPalmer » Wed Jun 21, 2017 11:09 am

Since this thread is becoming an LSAT dream journal, last night I dreamt that I accidentally stayed outside too long on the break, so when the proctor let me back in I had five minutes to take the whole fourth section.



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