June 2017 Waiters Thread- Grayday! -9 curve. GL all

Prepare for the LSAT or discuss it with others in this forum.

What did you get? (Presumptive release day poll. Revolting enabled)

177+
7
5%
175+
6
4%
173+
21
15%
170+
25
18%
167+
27
19%
165+
16
11%
163+
14
10%
160+
8
6%
159 -
16
11%
 
Total votes: 140

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DorkothyParker

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Re: June 2017 Waiters Thread- Dowsing for 180s

Postby DorkothyParker » Tue Jun 20, 2017 3:13 pm

Should have separated out the great future nation of Cascadia.

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MediocreAtBest

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Re: June 2017 Waiters Thread- Dowsing for 180s

Postby MediocreAtBest » Tue Jun 20, 2017 3:27 pm

lynn.wibi wrote:
Slippin' Jimmy wrote:This is why I don't feel sorry for him. After about 20 minutes of googling I realized that my original plan of going to either Stetson or Florida International and winging the LSAT was a bad idea. If someone refuses to do just a bit of research on a 200K+ debt financed investment their inevitable problems following graduation are their own fault.


I agree with Jimmy. Sure, these institutions capitalize applicants' desires, but at the end of the day it's by the applicants' own free will that they decide to enroll in these schools. If they are going to commit three years of their lives to a degree and the rest of their professional lives to a field, the very least they can do is to make sure it's a viable choice. They can spend 4 hours and $180 for the LSAT--surely they can spend an hour to quickly google something.


I get it and I agree that many people don't give the process the due diligence it deserves, but it's just as easy to get bad info. And while it's by their own free will, it doesn't mean they haven't received a skewed representation of what actually goes on. If you go on these schools' websites, they all seem great, they inflate their employment numbers, tell you about specialty rankings, scholarship opportunities, blah blah. The main source of skepticism and caution is from strangers on message boards.

So while there is plenty of blame to go around, I think the school suckering a poor kid into spending $150,000 for a coin's flip chance at a shitty job is exponentially more reprehensible than the poor kid himself.

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Re: June 2017 Waiters Thread- Dowsing for 180s

Postby mmorrell94 » Tue Jun 20, 2017 3:44 pm

I was pouring my morning cup of coffee today when I remember an LR question about caffeine that I'm nearly positive I got wrong. Instant panic attack; have got nothing done at work since.

so things are going well.

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Re: June 2017 Waiters Thread- Dowsing for 180s

Postby Ntp73821 » Tue Jun 20, 2017 3:56 pm

mmorrell94 wrote:I was pouring my morning cup of coffee today when I remember an LR question about caffeine that I'm nearly positive I got wrong. Instant panic attack; have got nothing done at work since.

so things are going well.


Right after I took the test, every single thing I saw reminded me of the LSAT. I had the same experience with some post LSAT coffee haha. This far out, I can't remember more than two or three questions :lol:
Last edited by Ntp73821 on Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: June 2017 Waiters Thread- Dowsing for 180s

Postby chargers21 » Tue Jun 20, 2017 3:59 pm

MediocreAtBest wrote:
lynn.wibi wrote:
Slippin' Jimmy wrote:This is why I don't feel sorry for him. After about 20 minutes of googling I realized that my original plan of going to either Stetson or Florida International and winging the LSAT was a bad idea. If someone refuses to do just a bit of research on a 200K+ debt financed investment their inevitable problems following graduation are their own fault.


I agree with Jimmy. Sure, these institutions capitalize applicants' desires, but at the end of the day it's by the applicants' own free will that they decide to enroll in these schools. If they are going to commit three years of their lives to a degree and the rest of their professional lives to a field, the very least they can do is to make sure it's a viable choice. They can spend 4 hours and $180 for the LSAT--surely they can spend an hour to quickly google something.


I get it and I agree that many people don't give the process the due diligence it deserves, but it's just as easy to get bad info. And while it's by their own free will, it doesn't mean they haven't received a skewed representation of what actually goes on. If you go on these schools' websites, they all seem great, they inflate their employment numbers, tell you about specialty rankings, scholarship opportunities, blah blah. The main source of skepticism and caution is from strangers on message boards.

So while there is plenty of blame to go around, I think the school suckering a poor kid into spending $150,000 for a coin's flip chance at a shitty job is exponentially more reprehensible than the poor kid himself.

Yeah, to be fair I thought it was weird to go on a 4chan style site for actual useful info on the law school application process

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DorkothyParker

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Re: June 2017 Waiters Thread- Dowsing for 180s

Postby DorkothyParker » Tue Jun 20, 2017 4:22 pm

I did have my second LSAT dream. The first was the night before the test when I dreamt I had to get bussed to the test and all the questions were in picture form.

Last night I just dreamt I got my score back. I wasn't sure how to feel about the number. And now, I'm worried that I did worse than that so if the dream number was bad, like my real one is going to be the pits.
Horror.
Horror and fear.

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tuna_wasabi

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Re: June 2017 Waiters Thread- Dowsing for 180s

Postby tuna_wasabi » Tue Jun 20, 2017 4:24 pm

chargers21 wrote:
MediocreAtBest wrote:
lynn.wibi wrote:
Slippin' Jimmy wrote:This is why I don't feel sorry for him. After about 20 minutes of googling I realized that my original plan of going to either Stetson or Florida International and winging the LSAT was a bad idea. If someone refuses to do just a bit of research on a 200K+ debt financed investment their inevitable problems following graduation are their own fault.


I agree with Jimmy. Sure, these institutions capitalize applicants' desires, but at the end of the day it's by the applicants' own free will that they decide to enroll in these schools. If they are going to commit three years of their lives to a degree and the rest of their professional lives to a field, the very least they can do is to make sure it's a viable choice. They can spend 4 hours and $180 for the LSAT--surely they can spend an hour to quickly google something.


I get it and I agree that many people don't give the process the due diligence it deserves, but it's just as easy to get bad info. And while it's by their own free will, it doesn't mean they haven't received a skewed representation of what actually goes on. If you go on these schools' websites, they all seem great, they inflate their employment numbers, tell you about specialty rankings, scholarship opportunities, blah blah. The main source of skepticism and caution is from strangers on message boards.

So while there is plenty of blame to go around, I think the school suckering a poor kid into spending $150,000 for a coin's flip chance at a shitty job is exponentially more reprehensible than the poor kid himself.


Yeah, to be fair I thought it was weird to go on a 4chan style site for actual useful info on the law school application process


Relying on the school's website, without referring to more neutral sites like Above The Law etc, is still solely the student's fault. Two things here: (1) whose fault it is that these students enroll in shitty schools; (2) whether the schools are more reprehensible than the students. While I agree with you on your second point, the first IMO lies 90% on the students.

Admittedly my judgment is skewed thanks to TLS and friends who are also aiming for law schools, so it might be hard for me to view this from these students' perspective.

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Re: June 2017 Waiters Thread- Dowsing for 180s

Postby Amerision » Tue Jun 20, 2017 4:30 pm

Lots of people also rely solely on their school's pre-law advisers to get them to law school. When the pre-law advisers tell them a TTT school is a good place to go w/o money or if they don't want to practice in the area, these students trust them. Just yesterday, I was talking to someone at my internship -- very smart, capable, a good lawyer -- and he was insisting that every school averaged the LSAT and I should do my best not to take it again if I did well in case I went down. Now, he probably was just remembering back to his days when he took the test, but had I not known from TLS and reddit that most schools didn't average anymore, why would I have any reason to doubt him?
Last edited by Amerision on Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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QueenBAYder

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Re: June 2017 Waiters Thread- Dowsing for 180s

Postby QueenBAYder » Tue Jun 20, 2017 4:34 pm

lynn.wibi wrote:
chargers21 wrote:
MediocreAtBest wrote:
lynn.wibi wrote:
Slippin' Jimmy wrote:This is why I don't feel sorry for him. After about 20 minutes of googling I realized that my original plan of going to either Stetson or Florida International and winging the LSAT was a bad idea. If someone refuses to do just a bit of research on a 200K+ debt financed investment their inevitable problems following graduation are their own fault.


I agree with Jimmy. Sure, these institutions capitalize applicants' desires, but at the end of the day it's by the applicants' own free will that they decide to enroll in these schools. If they are going to commit three years of their lives to a degree and the rest of their professional lives to a field, the very least they can do is to make sure it's a viable choice. They can spend 4 hours and $180 for the LSAT--surely they can spend an hour to quickly google something.


I get it and I agree that many people don't give the process the due diligence it deserves, but it's just as easy to get bad info. And while it's by their own free will, it doesn't mean they haven't received a skewed representation of what actually goes on. If you go on these schools' websites, they all seem great, they inflate their employment numbers, tell you about specialty rankings, scholarship opportunities, blah blah. The main source of skepticism and caution is from strangers on message boards.

So while there is plenty of blame to go around, I think the school suckering a poor kid into spending $150,000 for a coin's flip chance at a shitty job is exponentially more reprehensible than the poor kid himself.


Yeah, to be fair I thought it was weird to go on a 4chan style site for actual useful info on the law school application process


Relying on the school's website, without referring to more neutral sites like Above The Law etc, is still solely the student's fault. Two things here: (1) whose fault it is that these students enroll in shitty schools; (2) whether the schools are more reprehensible than the students. While I agree with you on your second point, the first IMO lies 90% on the students.

Admittedly my judgment is skewed thanks to TLS and friends who are also aiming for law schools, so it might be hard for me to view this from these students' perspective.


Not sure about you guys (maybe things changed since I graduated in 2012) but when I was thinking about going to Law School straight out of undergrad, every single adviser/professor/lawyer I spoke to about it pretty much said "Don't go to law school, the market is trash right now." Obviously enrollment is down and things are looking a bit better, so maybe that changed by the time you guys were going through?

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MediocreAtBest

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Re: June 2017 Waiters Thread- Dowsing for 180s

Postby MediocreAtBest » Tue Jun 20, 2017 4:37 pm

lynn.wibi wrote:
Relying on the school's website, without referring to more neutral sites like Above The Law etc, is still solely the student's fault. Two things here: (1) whose fault it is that these students enroll in shitty schools; (2) whether the schools are more reprehensible than the students. While I agree with you on your second point, the first IMO lies 90% on the students.

Admittedly my judgment is skewed thanks to TLS and friends who are also aiming for law schools, so it might be hard for me to view this from these students' perspective.


Certainly nobody can force someone to enroll in a school, but there is a lot of available information to digest and it can be hard to sort through the good and the bad to arrive at a reasonable decision. TLS, as we know, isn't really representative of the average prospective law student so there's that to factor in as well. I just have a hard time saying "that's what you get" when people fall prey to a predatory system is all. It sucks, even though it can be avoided.

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Re: June 2017 Waiters Thread- Dowsing for 180s

Postby LesPaul1995 » Tue Jun 20, 2017 4:49 pm

I am sympathetic to the point of view that not conducting due dilligence or even going to a top school is a poor decision - one of the main reasons we congregate on this site is because of the valuable wisdom that is not found elsewhere. That being said, the majority of people don't really care about going to a top school. I know this website believes t13 or die (as do I), but the reality is it is not a necessity to even get biglaw. In delaware the big 4 that pay $160 are: Richards, Layton & Finger, Morris Nichols Arscht & Tunnel, Potter Anderson, & Young Conaway Stargatt & Taylor (& also Skadden which pays lockstep NYC starting $180). You may look up any of these firms and look at the associates' education, and the vast majority of them did not go to t13. The majority graduated from regionals like Villanova, Temple, etc., and while the majority of them also graduated at least cum laude, the t13 is at least overblown for places like DE which is Tier 1 for certain corporate law and especially bankruptcy (not to mention Phillys regional market). I get that you can't go in saying you will graduate top of your class, and this is a good enough reason to retake in some instances, but the reality is that for perhaps scholarship reasons or simply not "doing research on tls" they did end up going and became successful.

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Re: June 2017 Waiters Thread- Dowsing for 180s

Postby dm1683 » Tue Jun 20, 2017 5:14 pm

LesPaul1995 wrote:I am sympathetic to the point of view that not conducting due dilligence or even going to a top school is a poor decision - one of the main reasons we congregate on this site is because of the valuable wisdom that is not found elsewhere. That being said, the majority of people don't really care about going to a top school. I know this website believes t13 or die (as do I), but the reality is it is not a necessity to even get biglaw. In delaware the big 4 that pay $160 are: Richards, Layton & Finger, Morris Nichols Arscht & Tunnel, Potter Anderson, & Young Conaway Stargatt & Taylor (& also Skadden which pays lockstep NYC starting $180). You may look up any of these firms and look at the associates' education, and the vast majority of them did not go to t13. The majority graduated from regionals like Villanova, Temple, etc., and while the majority of them also graduated at least cum laude, the t13 is at least overblown for places like DE which is Tier 1 for certain corporate law and especially bankruptcy (not to mention Phillys regional market). I get that you can't go in saying you will graduate top of your class, and this is a good enough reason to retake in some instances, but the reality is that for perhaps scholarship reasons or simply not "doing research on tls" they did end up going and became successful.

I don't think "T13 or die" is a firm TLS mantra. Nor is "retake until 170+" (although I agree that "retake" is too often a knee jerk response which fails to take into account individual circumstances). Most informed people on here will tell you that if you want to work in a small firm in a specific region where you have ties, going to a lower ranked school like Temple or Wisconsin or even Wyoming with a good sized scholarship is a good decision. As for retaking, it is almost always a good decision, but the issue is whether not retaking is a good decision, which depends both on the person's numbers and their goals-for example a 3.8/170 who wants generic biglaw doesn't have to retake because he or she can go to Cornell or Duke or UVA with $$$ but a 3.8/170 who wants to clerk for the Supreme Court will likely have to retake in order for the best chance at achieving their goals.

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Re: June 2017 Waiters Thread- Dowsing for 180s

Postby calmike » Tue Jun 20, 2017 5:22 pm

Ive been playing Friday the 13th The game the past week to relieve my stress.

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Re: June 2017 Waiters Thread- Dowsing for 180s

Postby Slippin' Jimmy » Tue Jun 20, 2017 5:23 pm

dm1683 wrote:
LesPaul1995 wrote:I am sympathetic to the point of view that not conducting due dilligence or even going to a top school is a poor decision - one of the main reasons we congregate on this site is because of the valuable wisdom that is not found elsewhere. That being said, the majority of people don't really care about going to a top school. I know this website believes t13 or die (as do I), but the reality is it is not a necessity to even get biglaw. In delaware the big 4 that pay $160 are: Richards, Layton & Finger, Morris Nichols Arscht & Tunnel, Potter Anderson, & Young Conaway Stargatt & Taylor (& also Skadden which pays lockstep NYC starting $180). You may look up any of these firms and look at the associates' education, and the vast majority of them did not go to t13. The majority graduated from regionals like Villanova, Temple, etc., and while the majority of them also graduated at least cum laude, the t13 is at least overblown for places like DE which is Tier 1 for certain corporate law and especially bankruptcy (not to mention Phillys regional market). I get that you can't go in saying you will graduate top of your class, and this is a good enough reason to retake in some instances, but the reality is that for perhaps scholarship reasons or simply not "doing research on tls" they did end up going and became successful.

I don't think "T13 or die" is a firm TLS mantra. Nor is "retake until 170+" (although I agree that "retake" is too often a knee jerk response which fails to take into account individual circumstances). Most informed people on here will tell you that if you want to work in a small firm in a specific region where you have ties, going to a lower ranked school like Temple or Wisconsin or even Wyoming with a good sized scholarship is a good decision. As for retaking, it is almost always a good decision, but the issue is whether not retaking is a good decision, which depends both on the person's numbers and their goals-for example a 3.8/170 who wants generic biglaw doesn't have to retake because he or she can go to Cornell or Duke or UVA with $$$ but a 3.8/170 who wants to clerk for the Supreme Court will likely have to retake in order for the best chance at achieving their goals.

Yeah TLS isn't really T14 or bust. Personally, I'm seriously considering Vandy, UT, Emory and UF if the price is right, although I'd obviously prefer T14.

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Re: June 2017 Waiters Thread- Dowsing for 180s

Postby tuna_wasabi » Tue Jun 20, 2017 5:23 pm

LesPaul1995 wrote:I am sympathetic to the point of view that not conducting due dilligence or even going to a top school is a poor decision - one of the main reasons we congregate on this site is because of the valuable wisdom that is not found elsewhere. That being said, the majority of people don't really care about going to a top school. I know this website believes t13 or die (as do I), but the reality is it is not a necessity to even get biglaw. In delaware the big 4 that pay $160 are: Richards, Layton & Finger, Morris Nichols Arscht & Tunnel, Potter Anderson, & Young Conaway Stargatt & Taylor (& also Skadden which pays lockstep NYC starting $180). You may look up any of these firms and look at the associates' education, and the vast majority of them did not go to t13. The majority graduated from regionals like Villanova, Temple, etc., and while the majority of them also graduated at least cum laude, the t13 is at least overblown for places like DE which is Tier 1 for certain corporate law and especially bankruptcy (not to mention Phillys regional market). I get that you can't go in saying you will graduate top of your class, and this is a good enough reason to retake in some instances, but the reality is that for perhaps scholarship reasons or simply not "doing research on tls" they did end up going and became successful.


The associates may not really care about going to T13, but I'd wager that they were at least aware of the costs and benefits of going to said schools. What concerns me is people like Jimmy's friend who has the "ANY law school or bust" mentality. Maybe I'm just too rational for my own good, i.e. calculating costs, benefits, and risks of doing a JD, as well as preparing plans B, C, D, in case law school doesn't fall through, but I couldn't fathom how someone can make an important decision without trying to get as much as information as possible.

MediocreAtBest wrote:Certainly nobody can force someone to enroll in a school, but there is a lot of available information to digest and it can be hard to sort through the good and the bad to arrive at a reasonable decision. TLS, as we know, isn't really representative of the average prospective law student so there's that to factor in as well. I just have a hard time saying "that's what you get" when people fall prey to a predatory system is all. It sucks, even though it can be avoided.


True, we are at the opposite end of the spectrum. My friends are also "T13 or bust", hence my unrepresentative sample.

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Re: June 2017 Waiters Thread- Dowsing for 180s

Postby dm1683 » Tue Jun 20, 2017 5:34 pm

lynn.wibi wrote:
LesPaul1995 wrote:I am sympathetic to the point of view that not conducting due dilligence or even going to a top school is a poor decision - one of the main reasons we congregate on this site is because of the valuable wisdom that is not found elsewhere. That being said, the majority of people don't really care about going to a top school. I know this website believes t13 or die (as do I), but the reality is it is not a necessity to even get biglaw. In delaware the big 4 that pay $160 are: Richards, Layton & Finger, Morris Nichols Arscht & Tunnel, Potter Anderson, & Young Conaway Stargatt & Taylor (& also Skadden which pays lockstep NYC starting $180). You may look up any of these firms and look at the associates' education, and the vast majority of them did not go to t13. The majority graduated from regionals like Villanova, Temple, etc., and while the majority of them also graduated at least cum laude, the t13 is at least overblown for places like DE which is Tier 1 for certain corporate law and especially bankruptcy (not to mention Phillys regional market). I get that you can't go in saying you will graduate top of your class, and this is a good enough reason to retake in some instances, but the reality is that for perhaps scholarship reasons or simply not "doing research on tls" they did end up going and became successful.


The associates may not really care about going to T13, but I'd wager that they were at least aware of the costs and benefits of going to said schools. What concerns me is people like Jimmy's friend who has the "ANY law school or bust" mentality. Maybe I'm just too rational for my own good, i.e. calculating costs, benefits, and risks of doing a JD, as well as preparing plans B, C, D, in case law school doesn't fall through, but I couldn't fathom how someone can make an important decision without trying to get as much as information as possible.


Yep. Far too many people think law is like medicine and law school is law school. I know someone who took on sticker debt for Detroit Mercy for this reason. She dropped out after first year and now runs a day care and is happily married. A good ending all things considered.

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Re: June 2017 Waiters Thread- Dowsing for 180s

Postby Future Ex-Engineer » Tue Jun 20, 2017 5:55 pm

Ntp73821 wrote:
heyduchess wrote:
Who the hell are y'all dating...?


My thoughts exactly :shock:


Mentally unstable ex-fiancee. Walked out two weeks before the wedding. Had no idea how crazy she was until that day. Showed no signs for the 3+ years we dated

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Re: June 2017 Waiters Thread- Dowsing for 180s

Postby Future Ex-Engineer » Tue Jun 20, 2017 5:56 pm

saf18hornet wrote:So can we eliminate Africa and SA from the poll.

Also, what's the general consensus for where the "Northeast" ends moving downward. Can we get a mid-atlantic region? I'd hate to be associated with NYC and Boston and the up tight culture of the NE.

Image


This map is shit. South Carolina is in the f'ing SOUTH. Not Southeast. Seriously X-country maps is dumb

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Re: June 2017 Waiters Thread- Dowsing for 180s

Postby Platopus » Tue Jun 20, 2017 6:25 pm

0 sympathy for students at TTT's. There are so many resources available for free, that it completely blows my mind that some people don't even put in the slightest effort to verify facts and interpret data, or worse: willfully ignore data and assume they will be special. I don't even want to get started about the LSAT. I tried relentlessly to talk an ex-girlfriend from attending Depaul at sticker, but she refused to even hear what the bar passage rate was, and she be came infuriated when I asked her how she planned on servicing $200K in debt.

Also, I am very skeptical of the claim that law schools are predatory. Unless, like U of Illinois, they are blatantly falsifying data and misrepresenting facts, then it falls on the student for either 1) not checking the data or 2) falling to accurately make sense of the data. Bar passage rates are a required disclosure. Scholarship stipulations are given to you clearly before you attend. Employment statistics are only misleading if you fail to do your due diligence in actually interpreting the data. Skittles aren't predatory for claiming they are "Fat Free", because they are, you're an idiot if you fail to consider that 50 grams of sugar may also make you fat. Same goes for law schools. A 68% employment rate is a factual statement if 68% of students are employed, even if only 5% have actual legal jobs; it's your fault if you fail to make that distinction, and these distinctions are widely available through the internet.

Sure, I was a bit lucky finding TLS my senior year in high school. But before TLS I read Richard Montauk's "How to get into Top Law Schools", and then I went online to actually verify that this guy was telling the truth, and he was. So I got my act together and studied my ass off in college because I read a book I independently verified to have factual information, and then applied myself. The moment my pre-law advisor mentioned Princeton Law, I was skeptical because I hadn't ever heard of Princeton law. After spending .02 seconds googling Princeton Law, I realized this guy was an idiot and subsequently discarded the rest of his advice.

/rantover

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Re: June 2017 Waiters Thread- Dowsing for 180s

Postby LesPaul1995 » Tue Jun 20, 2017 6:29 pm

dm1683 wrote:
lynn.wibi wrote:
LesPaul1995 wrote:I am sympathetic to the point of view that not conducting due dilligence or even going to a top school is a poor decision - one of the main reasons we congregate on this site is because of the valuable wisdom that is not found elsewhere. That being said, the majority of people don't really care about going to a top school. I know this website believes t13 or die (as do I), but the reality is it is not a necessity to even get biglaw. In delaware the big 4 that pay $160 are: Richards, Layton & Finger, Morris Nichols Arscht & Tunnel, Potter Anderson, & Young Conaway Stargatt & Taylor (& also Skadden which pays lockstep NYC starting $180). You may look up any of these firms and look at the associates' education, and the vast majority of them did not go to t13. The majority graduated from regionals like Villanova, Temple, etc., and while the majority of them also graduated at least cum laude, the t13 is at least overblown for places like DE which is Tier 1 for certain corporate law and especially bankruptcy (not to mention Phillys regional market). I get that you can't go in saying you will graduate top of your class, and this is a good enough reason to retake in some instances, but the reality is that for perhaps scholarship reasons or simply not "doing research on tls" they did end up going and became successful.


The associates may not really care about going to T13, but I'd wager that they were at least aware of the costs and benefits of going to said schools. What concerns me is people like Jimmy's friend who has the "ANY law school or bust" mentality. Maybe I'm just too rational for my own good, i.e. calculating costs, benefits, and risks of doing a JD, as well as preparing plans B, C, D, in case law school doesn't fall through, but I couldn't fathom how someone can make an important decision without trying to get as much as information as possible.


Yep. Far too many people think law is like medicine and law school is law school. I know someone who took on sticker debt for Detroit Mercy for this reason. She dropped out after first year and now runs a day care and is happily married. A good ending all things considered.


I certainly won't try and prove anyone wrong that going to law school is a poor decision for the vast majority of people who do it, especially since the market is vastly different from when people like Jay Sekulow or Michael Cohen, who went to Mercer and Cooley respectively, ended up doing well for themselves. The fact remains that even if people did fail to cost examine like most of us, there are people who are none the wiser that end up more than fine.

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Re: June 2017 Waiters Thread- Dowsing for 180s

Postby LesPaul1995 » Tue Jun 20, 2017 6:40 pm

Platopus wrote:0 sympathy for students at TTT's. There are so many resources available for free, that it completely blows my mind that some people don't even put in the slightest effort to verify facts and interpret data, or worse: willfully ignore data and assume they will be special. I don't even want to get started about the LSAT. I tried relentlessly to talk an ex-girlfriend from attending Depaul at sticker, but she refused to even hear what the bar passage rate was, and she be came infuriated when I asked her how she planned on servicing $200K in debt.

Also, I am very skeptical of the claim that law schools are predatory. Unless, like U of Illinois, they are blatantly falsifying data and misrepresenting facts, then it falls on the student for either 1) not checking the data or 2) falling to accurately make sense of the data. Bar passage rates are a required disclosure. Scholarship stipulations are given to you clearly before you attend. Employment statistics are only misleading if you fail to do your due diligence in actually interpreting the data. Skittles aren't predatory for claiming they are "Fat Free", because they are, you're an idiot if you fail to consider that 50 grams of sugar may also make you fat. Same goes for law schools. A 68% employment rate is a factual statement if 68% of students are employed, even if only 5% have actual legal jobs; it's your fault if you fail to make that distinction, and these distinctions are widely available through the internet.

Sure, I was a bit lucky finding TLS my senior year in high school. But before TLS I read Richard Montauk's "How to get into Top Law Schools", and then I went online to actually verify that this guy was telling the truth, and he was. So I got my act together and studied my ass off in college because I read a book I independently verified to have factual information, and then applied myself. The moment my pre-law advisor mentioned Princeton Law, I was skeptical because I hadn't ever heard of Princeton law. After spending .02 seconds googling Princeton Law, I realized this guy was an idiot and subsequently discarded the rest of his advice.

/rantover


I am sympathetic towards most of your viewpoint, but doesn't the first part of this debate fail to recognize that perhaps there are people who would have been worse off had they not enrolled in law school? As unfathomable as it might be to intelligent people on TLS, there might very well be some people who do weigh the costs and their best estimation is to go to law school given the lack of opportunity they face. Sure, having a lack of opportunity and enrolling in something that adds on to the lack of opportunity is at work here; I get that. But for some, like at New York Law School, whose starting salary average is $100,000 despite a 37% employment rate, might be a hell of a lot better than what was on the other end had they not done it. Sure, the other 60% may be fooled, and maybe even the employed first years because 100 grand in NYC doesn't get you far, but even THEN - for a sizeable percentage it may very well had been worth it.

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Re: June 2017 Waiters Thread- Dowsing for 180s

Postby Slippin' Jimmy » Tue Jun 20, 2017 6:40 pm

LesPaul1995 wrote:
dm1683 wrote:
lynn.wibi wrote:
LesPaul1995 wrote:I am sympathetic to the point of view that not conducting due dilligence or even going to a top school is a poor decision - one of the main reasons we congregate on this site is because of the valuable wisdom that is not found elsewhere. That being said, the majority of people don't really care about going to a top school. I know this website believes t13 or die (as do I), but the reality is it is not a necessity to even get biglaw. In delaware the big 4 that pay $160 are: Richards, Layton & Finger, Morris Nichols Arscht & Tunnel, Potter Anderson, & Young Conaway Stargatt & Taylor (& also Skadden which pays lockstep NYC starting $180). You may look up any of these firms and look at the associates' education, and the vast majority of them did not go to t13. The majority graduated from regionals like Villanova, Temple, etc., and while the majority of them also graduated at least cum laude, the t13 is at least overblown for places like DE which is Tier 1 for certain corporate law and especially bankruptcy (not to mention Phillys regional market). I get that you can't go in saying you will graduate top of your class, and this is a good enough reason to retake in some instances, but the reality is that for perhaps scholarship reasons or simply not "doing research on tls" they did end up going and became successful.


The associates may not really care about going to T13, but I'd wager that they were at least aware of the costs and benefits of going to said schools. What concerns me is people like Jimmy's friend who has the "ANY law school or bust" mentality. Maybe I'm just too rational for my own good, i.e. calculating costs, benefits, and risks of doing a JD, as well as preparing plans B, C, D, in case law school doesn't fall through, but I couldn't fathom how someone can make an important decision without trying to get as much as information as possible.


Yep. Far too many people think law is like medicine and law school is law school. I know someone who took on sticker debt for Detroit Mercy for this reason. She dropped out after first year and now runs a day care and is happily married. A good ending all things considered.


I certainly won't try and prove anyone wrong that going to law school is a poor decision for the vast majority of people who do it, especially since the market is vastly different from when people like Jay Sekulow or Michael Cohen, who went to Mercer and Cooley respectively, ended up doing well for themselves. The fact remains that even if people did fail to cost examine like most of us, there are people who are none the wiser that end up more than fine.


Not on topic but since you brought up Mercer, my parents tried for the longest time to get me to go there because their friend's son is there on full ride + stipend and they know a semi successful lawyer who graduated from there 25 years ago. They finally got off my case when I showed them the LST profile. Now if I can just convince them that T13 is a better idea than UF :roll:

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Re: June 2017 Waiters Thread- Dowsing for 180s

Postby amta » Tue Jun 20, 2017 7:16 pm

lol. didn't someone call me out for elitism like a week ago.

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Re: June 2017 Waiters Thread- Dowsing for 180s

Postby amta » Tue Jun 20, 2017 7:24 pm

Platopus wrote:0 sympathy for students at TTT's. There are so many resources available for free, that it completely blows my mind that some people don't even put in the slightest effort to verify facts and interpret data, or worse: willfully ignore data and assume they will be special. I don't even want to get started about the LSAT. I tried relentlessly to talk an ex-girlfriend from attending Depaul at sticker, but she refused to even hear what the bar passage rate was, and she be came infuriated when I asked her how she planned on servicing $200K in debt.

Also, I am very skeptical of the claim that law schools are predatory. Unless, like U of Illinois, they are blatantly falsifying data and misrepresenting facts, then it falls on the student for either 1) not checking the data or 2) falling to accurately make sense of the data. Bar passage rates are a required disclosure. Scholarship stipulations are given to you clearly before you attend. Employment statistics are only misleading if you fail to do your due diligence in actually interpreting the data. Skittles aren't predatory for claiming they are "Fat Free", because they are, you're an idiot if you fail to consider that 50 grams of sugar may also make you fat. Same goes for law schools. A 68% employment rate is a factual statement if 68% of students are employed, even if only 5% have actual legal jobs; it's your fault if you fail to make that distinction, and these distinctions are widely available through the internet.

Sure, I was a bit lucky finding TLS my senior year in high school. But before TLS I read Richard Montauk's "How to get into Top Law Schools", and then I went online to actually verify that this guy was telling the truth, and he was. So I got my act together and studied my ass off in college because I read a book I independently verified to have factual information, and then applied myself. The moment my pre-law advisor mentioned Princeton Law, I was skeptical because I hadn't ever heard of Princeton law. After spending .02 seconds googling Princeton Law, I realized this guy was an idiot and subsequently discarded the rest of his advice.

/rantover



damn, nixon, give them their tea!

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Re: June 2017 Waiters Thread- Dowsing for 180s

Postby Alexandros » Tue Jun 20, 2017 7:59 pm

.
Last edited by Alexandros on Fri Jul 07, 2017 1:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.



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