141 Diagnostic. Is 165 or 170+ possible or even realistic? Forum

[cm4998]

My LSAT diagnostic test was a 141. I honestly got lucky on a few so I'm guessing realistically it's a bit lower. This was my first time taking an LSAT and before that, I had only studied inconsistently for about a month, doing a few logic games. I plan to take the LSAT in June or September of 2017, as I have 3 semesters left of undergrad. I just started a 2 month blueprint LSAT course that ends in September, which I've heard, considering you put in significant effort, can increase your score dramatically. After that, I plan on self studying, with Powerscore bibles, all the LSAC pt's and perhaps 7sage online prep until June 2017.

I understand that 170 is ridiculously hard for someone with a very low diagnostic score and that a 30 point increase is very rare. However, I read a post by someone on here who said they started at 139 and ended up pt-ing at 176 in 6 months time with 4-6 hours of prep daily. I realize that in order to achieve this, I will have to commit myself completely and entirely but I'm worried that I will not have the discipline to do so, as I still have school work and I procrastinate a lot. I also realize that I will have to improve incrementally. First to 150, then aim for 160 and so forth. Considering the fact that I have a little over a year until the LSAT, and if I'm able to study intensely, consistently and without burning out, is it possible, or even realistic, to achieve a score above 165 or even 170+?

My dream has always been to be a lawyer and attend NYU law, even from a young age (middle school). Can I achieve my score or should I kiss the NYU dream good bye?

[proteinshake]

the first time I ever took a diagnostic PT I scored a 143 (granted I was a sophomore in college). I've been consistently scoring in the 170+ range (with a high of 177).

[Calbears123]

Yes, the LSAT is a lot like a sport. The more you practice the better you will get.

[tofuspeedstar]

Completely possible. My diag in 2012 was a 141. I'm PTing right now in the mid 160s, I also took the exam twice and scored 15x/16x. Going for 170+ to get a lot of money at my top choice. It's a lot of work, but this test is completely learn able.

[oidsedidy]

My LSAT diagnostic test was a 141. I honestly got lucky on a few so I'm guessing realistically it's a bit lower. This was my first time taking an LSAT and before that, I had only studied inconsistently for about a month, doing a few logic games. I plan to take the LSAT in June or September of 2017, as I have 3 semesters left of undergrad. I just started a 2 month blueprint LSAT course that ends in September, which I've heard, considering you put in significant effort, can increase your score dramatically. After that, I plan on self studying, with Powerscore bibles, all the LSAC pt's and perhaps 7sage online prep until June 2017.

I understand that 170 is ridiculously hard for someone with a very low diagnostic score and that a 30 point increase is very rare. However, I read a post by someone on here who said they started at 139 and ended up pt-ing at 176 in 6 months time with 4-6 hours of prep daily. I realize that in order to achieve this, I will have to commit myself completely and entirely but I'm worried that I will not have the discipline to do so, as I still have school work and I procrastinate a lot. I also realize that I will have to improve incrementally. First to 150, then aim for 160 and so forth. Considering the fact that I have a little over a year until the LSAT, and if I'm able to study intensely, consistently and without burning out, is it possible, or even realistic, to achieve a score above 165 or even 170+?

My dream has always been to be a lawyer and attend NYU law, even from a young age (middle school). Can I achieve my score or should I kiss the NYU dream good bye?

Here are a few things for you to consider:

1. You would be well-served by taking time off before applying to law school. If you are concerned that you don't have the discipline to study for the LSAT, just wait until you have to study for law school exams. There is nothing wrong with procrastination per se, but unless you either have it well under control, or can perform exceptionally well in-spite-of/because of your procrastination then take some time to work on that aspect of your life before going to law school.

2. I am firmly of the belief- belief being the operative word- that anyone with an IQ above 100 and without severe learning differences (idk if that's the PC expression of today- it was back in my day) can make a 165. The amount of time and dedication necessary to make a 165 will of course vary greatly, and if you fail to make a 165 don't take it too hard- there are many very bright people who, for a variety of reasons, struggle with the test. In short, your diagnostic should be treated as just that, and nothing more.

3. There is a difference between dreaming of becoming a lawyer and dreaming of attending law school. NYU is an excellent school; it is not the only school from which you can be trained to become an excellent lawyer. Many excellent lawyers did not go to an excellent school. This is another reason why I would recommend taking some time off before applying to law school: really consider what it means to you to become a lawyer, and why you want to do that as opposed to anything else. Going to NYU should be secondary.

[Barack O'Drama]

Completely possible.

It will be hard, but what goal isn't?

30 point increases, albeit rare, have been done.

I'd say you need to focus on consistent and intense prep. Studying for a few weeks here and there won't do it. Taking a course might be a good idea if you feel like you are lacking the discipline required to dedicate yourself to this test. However, part of me also feels like if you lack the discipline then you don't want this enough and the LSAT/Law school might not be for you.... I also have a goal of a 170+ and starting from a lower diagnostic. (151) I'll tell you right now, you need to be disciplined! I believe you have it in you...Everyone does if they want something bad enough.

A year is a good timeline to achieve your goal. Don't count out the possibility that it may take over one year. And you have to be smart, because there are a finite amount of tests. So don't waste any questions.

I'd suggest buying the 7Sage Course. They start at $179 and you can upgrade. The Ultimate is like $700 and you get a year subscription I think. Plus tons of test explanations and a question bank! I have it, and it is absolutely great. Can't recommend it enough. They also have a great forum over there with positive, kind people who all help each other. Just a great community to be a part of...

After you are done with your core curriculum and have the foundations of each section mastered, you can begin practice testing. Try to aim for 2-3 a week and keep track of your progress. And utilize the Blind Review Method that 7Sage teaches. Don't start PT'ing until you've really mastered the core-curricula of each prep material/course you decide to use.

I think you can do it. It is not going to be easy. It will probably be very doable with hard work to get your score in the high 150s, but after that each point can be a real battle to achieve. Still, even so, Mike Kim from the LSAT Trainer wrote a great quote in his book (which I highly recommend and also used) that was something along the lines of: "The best way to ensure success is to deserve it"

That quote really resonated with me for several reasons. First, when I began studying in June, I spent an inordinate amount of time looking for silver bullet. Tricks and tips to game the test. Ways to cut corners, trying to follow study guides that a 180er had used, buying every book under the sun... (Powerscore, Manhattan, Kaplan, Cambridge, etc)

What it came down to was that in order to reach a 170, I needed to learn the material. Drill. And practice test. There are no secrets. I have begun with the end in mind. Picturing myself getting that acceptance from my dream school. I think the best part will be that it wasn't easy and that I earned it. You can too.

The best advice I have is: Prepare for the long road to a 170. And honestly, I'd recommend the 7Sage course + The LSAT Trainer.

Good luck!

[Elbble]

I've been a tutor for close to 10 years now, and I think there's nothing dumber than cold diagnostic tests. It sets the bar at a totally arbitrary level, and then ridiculously tethers your expectationsto that arbitrary level. Forget about the diagnostic score altogether, and aim at the top.

As an example, my LSAT score last October was (an admittedly lucky) 180. I didn't even start taking diagnostics until I was about 3 weeks into intensive studying. If I had, I would've started really low, since I knew nothing at all about the test going in. Then I would've had that original random low number in my head all along, distracting me from the actual goal, which is just to aim for the top.

My advice is to try as close as possible to get that number out of your head- it means very little. Can you break 170? I see no reason why not.

[pretzeltime]

there's nothing dumber than cold diagnostic tests. It sets the bar at a totally arbitrary level, and then ridiculously tethers your expectationsto that arbitrary level. Forget about the diagnostic score altogether, and aim at the top.

[FayRays]

Wow we have a similar story and goal. We are on the same boat!

My plan is to study now the lsat trainer then during school year, I will do drillings an hour or half an hour each day, and then after I garduate I will get powerscore books and do more pts and more focused and timed drillings

I think we can do it, we just have to work really hard.


NYU Here we come


Finger crossed

[SuperCool23]

Same goal and I am also taking Blueprint for the Sept test. Goal is NYU.

[TAD]

My LSAT diagnostic test was a 141. I honestly got lucky on a few so I'm guessing realistically it's a bit lower. This was my first time taking an LSAT and before that, I had only studied inconsistently for about a month, doing a few logic games. I plan to take the LSAT in June or September of 2017, as I have 3 semesters left of undergrad. I just started a 2 month blueprint LSAT course that ends in September, which I've heard, considering you put in significant effort, can increase your score dramatically. After that, I plan on self studying, with Powerscore bibles, all the LSAC pt's and perhaps 7sage online prep until June 2017.

I understand that 170 is ridiculously hard for someone with a very low diagnostic score and that a 30 point increase is very rare. However, I read a post by someone on here who said they started at 139 and ended up pt-ing at 176 in 6 months time with 4-6 hours of prep daily. I realize that in order to achieve this, I will have to commit myself completely and entirely but I'm worried that I will not have the discipline to do so, as I still have school work and I procrastinate a lot. I also realize that I will have to improve incrementally. First to 150, then aim for 160 and so forth. Considering the fact that I have a little over a year until the LSAT, and if I'm able to study intensely, consistently and without burning out, is it possible, or even realistic, to achieve a score above 165 or even 170+?

My dream has always been to be a lawyer and attend NYU law, even from a young age (middle school). Can I achieve my score or should I kiss the NYU dream good bye?

1st diagnostic was 145 in second year university. 2 years later diagnostic was 142. Studied 9 months, albeit on and off, due to exams and so forth. Pulled 170 first lsat take. Not gonna say it was easy, as some days I was doing lsats for 8 hours...but that's cause of practice tests..break..then drill. But on avg about 6 hours. Put in the work, reap the rewards.

[rav17]

My diagnostic was a 146 and I was close to tears afterwards. After studying for 5 months (20-40 hrs week) I scored a 175. Don't be discouraged by a poor diagnostic. While it may be helpful to see where your weaknesses and strengths are, it's not necessarily indicative of how well you're capable of scoring.

[SuperCool23]

These post are really encouraging, I will be studying 35-50 hours a week to hit the 170 mark.

[cm4998]

Wow! The TLS community is awesome!! Thanks so much for the replies and the advice. I'm feeling pretty encouraged. It will be a long road, but well worth it.

[Barack O'Drama]

I've been a tutor for close to 10 years now, and I think there's nothing dumber than cold diagnostic tests. It sets the bar at a totally arbitrary level, and then ridiculously tethers your expectationsto that arbitrary level. Forget about the diagnostic score altogether, and aim at the top.

As an example, my LSAT score last October was (an admittedly lucky) 180. I didn't even start taking diagnostics until I was about 3 weeks into intensive studying. If I had, I would've started really low, since I knew nothing at all about the test going in. Then I would've had that original random low number in my head all along, distracting me from the actual goal, which is just to aim for the top.

My advice is to try as close as possible to get that number out of your head- it means very little. Can you break 170? I see no reason why not.

I wish somebody would have told me that when I started. Ever since I got my diagnostic of a 151 I've been kind of...depressed in a way. It seems so far away from my goal, and you're right, it is pretty arbitrary. I think it is important to see where you weaknesses are, as well as getting a sense of the test as a whole. Waiting 3 weeks might be a great middle ground / solution to this.

And congrats on the 180! What did you use to prep?

[Barack O'Drama]

These post are really encouraging, I will be studying 35-50 hours a week to hit the 170 mark.

35 is good. 40 is tops. 50 is probably too much. Part of training for the LSAT is doing so smart. Brute force studying is something I, and many others will warn against. You need time to let what you've learned "sink in" I was doing 40+ for a couple weeks and burned out. Burn out is real!

I think 5-6 hours a day is a good place to aim. Always take a day off to refresh. Even if you feel like you don't need it, my best days are always after a day off.

[SuperCool23]

I'll aim at 40 hours a week... I feel you on the burn out, I'll pick a day where I take off just to relax my mind.

[Elbble]

I wish somebody would have told me that when I started. Ever since I got my diagnostic of a 151 I've been kind of...depressed in a way. It seems so far away from my goal, and you're right, it is pretty arbitrary. I think it is important to see where you weaknesses are, as well as getting a sense of the test as a whole. Waiting 3 weeks might be a great middle ground / solution to this.

And congrats on the 180! What did you use to prep?

Yeah, don't let that get you down at all. You just as easily could have gotten way higher or way lower, without any predictive bearing on how well you can do with actual intense studying.

As for me, I studied for about 2 hours a day (with lots of occasional days off) for 3 months. What helped me most was a) the logic game power score bible, which is amazing, closely followed by the logical reasoning bible. Those are the only prep books I used, apart from lsac-issued books of real lsats; and b) being very diligent about taking real practice tests the final month before the test. I took about 3 full-length practice tests per week during that final month, being SUPER strict about timing, no snacks, no breaks, etc. Basically replicate the test conditions exactly, do that about 20 times (I think I took 21 full length timed tests) and you'll have no surprises during the real thing.

[Barack O'Drama]

I wish somebody would have told me that when I started. Ever since I got my diagnostic of a 151 I've been kind of...depressed in a way. It seems so far away from my goal, and you're right, it is pretty arbitrary. I think it is important to see where you weaknesses are, as well as getting a sense of the test as a whole. Waiting 3 weeks might be a great middle ground / solution to this.

And congrats on the 180! What did you use to prep?

Yeah, don't let that get you down at all. You just as easily could have gotten way higher or way lower, without any predictive bearing on how well you can do with actual intense studying.

As for me, I studied for about 2 hours a day (with lots of occasional days off) for 3 months. What helped me most was a) the logic game power score bible, which is amazing, closely followed by the logical reasoning bible. Those are the only prep books I used, apart from lsac-issued books of real lsats; and b) being very diligent about taking real practice tests the final month before the test. I took about 3 full-length practice tests per week during that final month, being SUPER strict about timing, no snacks, no breaks, etc. Basically replicate the test conditions exactly, do that about 20 times (I think I took 21 full length timed tests) and you'll have no surprises during the real thing.

Thank you so much! I agree that it is completely arbitrary. I have the Powerscore bibles and have read through most of the LGB. I agree that it is a great book on logic games. I also like the Powerscore LRB as well. Again, congrats on the awesome score! #180

[HonestAdvice]

It's rare, and the responders above are an unrepresentative sample. They're more driven than most people, and were able to use the computer to find resources to boost their scores. The percentage of people who go from
a 140 to 170 is very low. We're talking about one person out of about every 10,000 taking a given test. To put this in perspective, by Vegas odds, it's likelier that Johnny Manziel wins Super Bowl MVP this year than a particular person with a 140 breaks a 170.

[oidsedidy]

It's rare, and the responders above are an unrepresentative sample. They're more driven than most people, and were able to use the computer to find resources to boost their scores. The percentage of people who go from
a 140 to 170 is very low. We're talking about one person out of about every 10,000 taking a given test. To put this in perspective, by Vegas odds, it's likelier that Johnny Manziel wins Super Bowl MVP this year than a particular person with a 140 breaks a 170.

Although the odds of anyone making a 170 are low- I think that's around 97th percentile- and thus the odds of jumping 30 points are even lower... surely there are more stars in the Milky Way than there are possible futures that include Johnny Football winning SB MVP.

[Elbble]

It's rare, and the responders above are an unrepresentative sample. They're more driven than most people, and were able to use the computer to find resources to boost their scores. The percentage of people who go from
a 140 to 170 is very low. We're talking about one person out of about every 10,000 taking a given test. To put this in perspective, by Vegas odds, it's likelier that Johnny Manziel wins Super Bowl MVP this year than a particular person with a 140 breaks a 170.

I think this poster means well, but OP you should really not take this advice seriously. There are no "odds" that accurately describe your situation, and the number cited above is bogus. Just focus on your own highly specific situation, study hard, and try your best to maximize your score. As of right now you should make it your goal to stop thinking about the diagnostic completely, and think only to the future.

[MyNameIsntJames]

My LSAT diagnostic test was a 141. I honestly got lucky on a few so I'm guessing realistically it's a bit lower. This was my first time taking an LSAT and before that, I had only studied inconsistently for about a month, doing a few logic games. I plan to take the LSAT in June or September of 2017, as I have 3 semesters left of undergrad. I just started a 2 month blueprint LSAT course that ends in September, which I've heard, considering you put in significant effort, can increase your score dramatically. After that, I plan on self studying, with Powerscore bibles, all the LSAC pt's and perhaps 7sage online prep until June 2017.

I understand that 170 is ridiculously hard for someone with a very low diagnostic score and that a 30 point increase is very rare. However, I read a post by someone on here who said they started at 139 and ended up pt-ing at 176 in 6 months time with 4-6 hours of prep daily. I realize that in order to achieve this, I will have to commit myself completely and entirely but I'm worried that I will not have the discipline to do so, as I still have school work and I procrastinate a lot. I also realize that I will have to improve incrementally. First to 150, then aim for 160 and so forth. Considering the fact that I have a little over a year until the LSAT, and if I'm able to study intensely, consistently and without burning out, is it possible, or even realistic, to achieve a score above 165 or even 170+?

My dream has always been to be a lawyer and attend NYU law, even from a young age (middle school). Can I achieve my score or should I kiss the NYU dream good bye?

If you put the work in, no score is impossible to get. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. /The End

[MyNameIsntJames]

It's rare, and the responders above are an unrepresentative sample. They're more driven than most people, and were able to use the computer to find resources to boost their scores. The percentage of people who go from
a 140 to 170 is very low. We're talking about one person out of about every 10,000 taking a given test. To put this in perspective, by Vegas odds, it's likelier that Johnny Manziel wins Super Bowl MVP this year than a particular person with a 140 breaks a 170.

I don't even understand this post. Most people with a 140 diag. probably never had a stated goal of getting to 170+ to begin with so this doesn't match the situation. Op has specifically said he wants to get 170+. If he studies hard and diligently then he'll get there. The only "odds" he needs to rely on are the odds that he sits down like a big boy, learns the material and consistently practices. Period.

[Barack O'Drama]

The reason why the jump to a low diagnostic to a higher score is rare is based on the fact that there is this LSAT-prep-industry orthodoxy that 3-4 months to prepare is adequate for most people to max out there score. This idea was created by the LSAT prep companies who want to maximize their profits, and the students happily accept that notion because it sounds way better than the truth.

The truth is, most people who end up scoring in the 170s study for about a year. I don't have anything but anecdata, but I have spent a long time researching some general trends. There seems to be 2 common types of people who get 170s and the most common are those who studied for about a year.

First, there are people who nail it on their first time. They study diligently for 3-4 months, kill the test, and that is that. You'll find these people almost exclusively had a diagnostic in the 160s. These tend to be the outliers, and I would put them at >20% of 170 scorers.

Second, there are people who study, shit the bed, and then end up studying for a retake. Then they might hit a 170. It isn't uncommon for them to have to take a 3rd try to achieve a 170. This whole process takes about a year. I would put these people at ~65% of 170 scorers.

Last, and a fairly uncommon type of 170er is someone who studies for a very long time to hit their target score. Somewhere around 10%-15% of the 170 scorers. They had a lower diagnostic, but dedicate a long time to maxing out their score. This can take a year or even two years + in some cases. I have talked to a lot of these people on the 7Sage forums. For example, tutor Nicole Hopkins who is now a "Sage" [someone who scored above a 170 and helps students at 7Sage] studied for a year and a half before hitting the 170s. So did several others that share their experiences on the 7Sage forum. These people may be a sub-group of the second group I mentioned. Sometimes you study and PT in 170s for a month and then get a hard test, or fold under pressure. It happens and you retake. But you LSAT skills aren't lacking as much as your stress management skills. Then again, sometimes you just get a fucked-up pattern game.

So what is the takeaway for OP?

I think it is very possible for you to hit a 170 barring any educational problem, mental handicap, or something that keeps you from dedicating the time you will need to master this test. This test is a reading test. It tests you to read arguments, pull them apart, and evaluate what you just have read. You can obviously read.... A 170er is just someone who has mastered the ins and outs of this test. I'm sure with hard work you can too.

It is going to take hard work, no one is denying that. But your diagnostic is just a gauge of where you are with your prep. And it told you what you already knew; you hadn't even studied for it, and you need to. Some people start off with a 165 on their diagnostic and end up with a 164 on the real thing. Some start with a 140 and end with a 170. Some study for years and can't break a 160. But, no matter how rare it may be, it is certainly possible.

Just don't go into this expecting to spend 4-5 months and take in December. I am willing to bet a year with diligent and serious prep will put you in the 170 range.

ETA: OP check out 7Sage and their forums. I find them to be much more helpful for purposes of LSAT prep outside of the few helpful threads here.