Violation of LSAT test center regulations Forum

galeatus · Post by **galeatus** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 2:00 pm

SirArthurDayne wrote:Okay, let's try to be helpful. What do you do now if you're OP?

Find an attorney, and find a job.

A. Nony Mouse · Post by **A. Nony Mouse** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 2:03 pm

HxAxDxExS wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
HxAxDxExS wrote:Why in the world would you go back and erase it? Nobody is looking down on you to see if you did the right thing or not. You should've just left it on there, I mean, he gave you the warning and let it slide. WHY THE **** WOULD YOU GO BACK AND DO IT? I understand where you're coming from, but it is a big deal, because one part of the test may help you answering questions on the other side of the test.
I think it's clear that the OP initially thought it was a warning, not that it actually was a
warning. I think the OP was already sunk at that point.
I don't understand, initially thought it was, not that it actually was? Regardless, why go back and try to erase them, he doesn't get the person that gave him a warning to take it back; and exactly the opposite happened.

My point was that even if the OP thought the proctor's initial comment was a warning, it probably actually wasn't - he was probably already going to be written up, and going back to erase didn't make any difference. I actually think if you thought it was a warning about not adding answers, going back to erase them is perfectly reasonable, in a "my bad, I'll put it back the way it was" way.

joeycxxxx09 · Post by **joeycxxxx09** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 2:08 pm

Not sure why some of you are being so ruthless, this could easily be an honest mistake. The fact he erased the answers after they told him you can't do that shows that he was trying to correct the error and return it to the way it was before he made the mistake. And let's be honest, if any of you ran out of time before bubbling the last two questions on a section you would bubble those in at some point before you turned the test in.

pancakes3 · Post by **pancakes3** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 2:11 pm

joeycxxxx09 wrote:Not sure why some of you are being so ruthless, this could easily be an honest mistake. The fact he erased the answers after they told him you can't do that shows that he was trying to correct the error and return it to the way it was before he made the mistake. And let's be honest, if any of you ran out of time before bubbling the last two questions on a section you would bubble those in at some point before you turned the test in.

No bro, we wouldn't. I wouldn't, anyway.

A. Nony Mouse · Post by **A. Nony Mouse** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 2:12 pm

Nah, some people actually follow the rules. Especially proto-lawyers.

My point is that I'm not sure it being an honest mistake will make a difference, given how many times they give the instructions. But maybe it will. Again, only LSAC will know.

benwyatt · Post by **benwyatt** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 2:13 pm

Post removed.

GreatBraffsby · Post by **GreatBraffsby** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 2:14 pm

The OP will soon be formally notified of the allegations and will have 30 days to request a hearing and/or defend himself or herself in writing, or else the LSAC can penalize him to whatever extent they would like. If a hearing is requested, the OP will then need to meet the standard that a preponderance of evidence shows him or her to be innocent. So if the committee believes the odds of guilt are 51%-49%, then the LSAC will officially charge the OP with misconduct. If charged, the OP's last chance is an appeal. The appeal is a 3 person committee and 2/3rd of them would have to find him innocent. This ruling is final and takes into consideration the transcript of the first hearing. Personally, I would be surprised if appeals have even a moderate success rate.

I'd advise the OP to do two things in this order. First, decide if law school is a path he or she is 100% committed to and one worth spending a significant amount of money to fight for. Second, consult with an attorney ASAP to plot a course of action that doesn't result in law schools or state bars being notified of ethical misconduct. This would maximize the chance that OP could have a career in law, but is no means sufficient to guarantee success.

From my amateur perspective, the only real chance for the OP is to argue that there is no hard evidence of inappropriately filling in the bubbles, but witness testimony, the authority of the proctor and maybe even this post could doom the OP. Also, a test booklet where 11 questions are unmarked but bubbled on the answer sheet would be damaging evidence. I think the OP clearly committed an egregious error and should face some repercussions. Unfortunately, ethical misconduct can sink an entire legal career before it starts. The usage of preponderance of evidence, as opposed to "innocent until proven guilty", will likely doom the OP no matter how much of a fight he or she puts up.

If anyone finds themselves in a scenario where they are tempted to alter a previous section, just leave the test center before you lose the monetary, temporal and social investments you made in test prep, as well as the opportunities afforded by a legal education (however few they may be!). Don't freak out about the bombed test, cancel your score the next day, figure out what happened and retake the test after making a contingency plan. I'm sure anyone found guilty of this would have rather just walked away.

tl;dr: OP likely done-zo, best way to get out of trouble is not to cause it in the first place.

joeycxxxx09 · Post by **joeycxxxx09** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 2:16 pm

pancakes3 wrote:
joeycxxxx09 wrote:Not sure why some of you are being so ruthless, this could easily be an honest mistake. The fact he erased the answers after they told him you can't do that shows that he was trying to correct the error and return it to the way it was before he made the mistake. And let's be honest, if any of you ran out of time before bubbling the last two questions on a section you would bubble those in at some point before you turned the test in.
No bro, we wouldn't. I wouldn't, anyway.

You're telling me if you bubbled in 25 of 27 RC questions, time got called while you were bubbling, and you knew both of those answers were C, you wouldn't bubble in the last two questions at some point? You would leave the 2 points on the table for the rest of the test? Lol

Icculus · Post by **Icculus** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 2:20 pm

joeycxxxx09 wrote:
pancakes3 wrote:
joeycxxxx09 wrote:Not sure why some of you are being so ruthless, this could easily be an honest mistake. The fact he erased the answers after they told him you can't do that shows that he was trying to correct the error and return it to the way it was before he made the mistake. And let's be honest, if any of you ran out of time before bubbling the last two questions on a section you would bubble those in at some point before you turned the test in.
No bro, we wouldn't. I wouldn't, anyway.
You're telling me if you bubbled in 25 of 27 RC questions, time got called while you were bubbling, and you knew both of those answers were C, you wouldn't bubble in the last two questions at some point? You would leave the 2 points on the table for the rest of the test? Lol

Correct, because, forgetting about the fact it wold be cheating and unethical, the repercussions of getting caught so far outweigh the two point benefit (especially if one can retake) that to go back and do it would be utterly idiotic and irresponsible.

But, ya know, you do you.

GreatBraffsby · Post by **GreatBraffsby** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 2:21 pm

joeycxxxx09 wrote:Not sure why some of you are being so ruthless, this could easily be an honest mistake. The fact he erased the answers after they told him you can't do that shows that he was trying to correct the error and return it to the way it was before he made the mistake. And let's be honest, if any of you ran out of time before bubbling the last two questions on a section you would bubble those in at some point before you turned the test in.

Actually that might be the piece of evidence that does him or her in. Shows recognition that the answers were given in an improper section and that the OP was quick to understand that his original action violated LSAT policy.

Sounds like the OP wasn't trying to cheat, so I feel bad for him/her if the post is 100% honest. If it was up to me, the 10 seconds it would have taken him to bubble the answers should be granted as a courtesy after the test. It's not like the OP flew through the games and then went back to the first section to gain a strategic advantage. It's the test taker's responsibility to know the rules and to make good strategic decisions, but I don't think putting down 11 random bubbles post-section gives someone an edge.

rpupkin · Post by **rpupkin** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 2:21 pm

joeycxxxx09 wrote:
pancakes3 wrote:
joeycxxxx09 wrote:Not sure why some of you are being so ruthless, this could easily be an honest mistake. The fact he erased the answers after they told him you can't do that shows that he was trying to correct the error and return it to the way it was before he made the mistake. And let's be honest, if any of you ran out of time before bubbling the last two questions on a section you would bubble those in at some point before you turned the test in.
No bro, we wouldn't. I wouldn't, anyway.
You're telling me if you bubbled in 25 of 27 RC questions, time got called while you were bubbling, and you knew both of those answers were C, you wouldn't bubble in the last two questions at some point? You would leave the 2 points on the table for the rest of the test? Lol

I think you're being too strong here. Believe it or not, there are ethical people who won't cheat even if they can be reasonably sure that they'll get away with it.

But I half-agree with you: there are many test takers--including, I suspect, some who are posting in this thread--who would discreetly fill in the bubbles in the scenario you laid out. The sanctimony ITT is a little much.

lymenheimer · Post by **lymenheimer** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 2:23 pm

joeycxxxx09 wrote:
pancakes3 wrote:
joeycxxxx09 wrote:Not sure why some of you are being so ruthless, this could easily be an honest mistake. The fact he erased the answers after they told him you can't do that shows that he was trying to correct the error and return it to the way it was before he made the mistake. And let's be honest, if any of you ran out of time before bubbling the last two questions on a section you would bubble those in at some point before you turned the test in.
No bro, we wouldn't. I wouldn't, anyway.
You're telling me if you bubbled in 25 of 27 RC questions, time got called while you were bubbling, and you knew both of those answers were C, you wouldn't bubble in the last two questions at some point? You would leave the 2 points on the table for the rest of the test? Lol

If that were the case, it would be easy enough to say "Oh my bad...I bubbled in the wrong section"...or even sneakily do those last 2 towards the end of the next section. but as other people have said, some people actually follow the rules to the T. Either way, 11 questions is not "the last two questions".

GreatBraffsby · Post by **GreatBraffsby** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 2:23 pm

Icculus wrote:
joeycxxxx09 wrote:
pancakes3 wrote:
joeycxxxx09 wrote:Not sure why some of you are being so ruthless, this could easily be an honest mistake. The fact he erased the answers after they told him you can't do that shows that he was trying to correct the error and return it to the way it was before he made the mistake. And let's be honest, if any of you ran out of time before bubbling the last two questions on a section you would bubble those in at some point before you turned the test in.
No bro, we wouldn't. I wouldn't, anyway.
You're telling me if you bubbled in 25 of 27 RC questions, time got called while you were bubbling, and you knew both of those answers were C, you wouldn't bubble in the last two questions at some point? You would leave the 2 points on the table for the rest of the test? Lol
Correct, because, forgetting about the fact it wold be cheating and unethical, the repercussions of getting caught so far outweigh the two point benefit (especially if one can retake) that to go back and do it would be utterly idiotic and irresponsible.

But, ya know, you do you.

Instead of fighting, let's just blame the application system that encourages LSAT score mania. Pretty ridiculous that a few more correct answers, especially at the 98+ percentile, can significantly alter admission and scholarship outcomes.

chalky · Post by **chalky** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 2:29 pm

Post removed...

benwyatt · Post by **benwyatt** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 2:32 pm

Post removed.

TheSpanishMain · Post by **TheSpanishMain** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 2:32 pm

joeycxxxx09 wrote:Not sure why some of you are being so ruthless, this could easily be an honest mistake.

The answer is the same whether OP was trying to cheat or was honestly mistaken. All he/she can is plead their case to LSAC and, if necessary, consult a C&F attorney.

joeycxxxx09 · Post by **joeycxxxx09** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 2:34 pm

lymenheimer wrote:
joeycxxxx09 wrote:
pancakes3 wrote:
joeycxxxx09 wrote:Not sure why some of you are being so ruthless, this could easily be an honest mistake. The fact he erased the answers after they told him you can't do that shows that he was trying to correct the error and return it to the way it was before he made the mistake. And let's be honest, if any of you ran out of time before bubbling the last two questions on a section you would bubble those in at some point before you turned the test in.
No bro, we wouldn't. I wouldn't, anyway.
You're telling me if you bubbled in 25 of 27 RC questions, time got called while you were bubbling, and you knew both of those answers were C, you wouldn't bubble in the last two questions at some point? You would leave the 2 points on the table for the rest of the test? Lol
If that were the case, it would be easy enough to say "Oh my bad...I bubbled in the wrong section"...or even sneakily do those last 2 towards the end of the next section. but as other people have said, some people actually follow the rules to the T. Either way, 11 questions is not "the last two questions".

So you're saying that if he would have said 2 questions instead of 11 in the original post, he wouldn't be getting chastised by the LSAT morality police on here? I doubt it

BCgirl · Post by **BCgirl** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 2:39 pm

sakaichen wrote:
theugg wrote:Also, how did you not intend to cheat to improve your grade? What else were you doing?
Because I am a foreigner. In my country, the scope of "cheating" on test is different from that in USA.

That is absolutely no excuse. Come on, you're wanting to go into law - law is ALL about the rules.

The reason they tell you to read the instructions AND to listen to the instructions at the test center before you begin is to prevent people from fudging the rules. Frankly, you can't take this kind of attitude into practice. If you do become a lawyer, there's no "in-my-country-the-scope-of-ethical-violations-is-different" defense.

lymenheimer · Post by **lymenheimer** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 2:41 pm

joeycxxxx09 wrote:
lymenheimer wrote:
joeycxxxx09 wrote:
pancakes3 wrote:
joeycxxxx09 wrote:Not sure why some of you are being so ruthless, this could easily be an honest mistake. The fact he erased the answers after they told him you can't do that shows that he was trying to correct the error and return it to the way it was before he made the mistake. And let's be honest, if any of you ran out of time before bubbling the last two questions on a section you would bubble those in at some point before you turned the test in.
No bro, we wouldn't. I wouldn't, anyway.
You're telling me if you bubbled in 25 of 27 RC questions, time got called while you were bubbling, and you knew both of those answers were C, you wouldn't bubble in the last two questions at some point? You would leave the 2 points on the table for the rest of the test? Lol
If that were the case, it would be easy enough to say "Oh my bad...I bubbled in the wrong section"...or even sneakily do those last 2 towards the end of the next section. but as other people have said, some people actually follow the rules to the T. Either way, 11 questions is not "the last two questions".
So you're saying that if he would have said 2 questions instead of 11 in the original post, he wouldn't be getting chastised by the LSAT morality police on here? I doubt it

No. I didn't[wasn't] say[ing] that.

Nagster5 · Post by **Nagster5** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 2:41 pm

Post removed.

AfrocentricAsian · Post by **AfrocentricAsian** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 2:44 pm

Nagster5 wrote:
SirArthurDayne wrote:Okay, let's try to be helpful. What do you do now if you're OP?
If I couldn't finish half of the section on the LSAT before time I wouldn't go to law school. All this cheating stuff is probably a blessing in disguise trying to steer him away from financial ruin.

Yes, because one did poorly on a clearly learn-able test, they shouldn't go to law school.

It's sad that most of you will be big time lawyers and hold some sort of powerful position in the near future.

joeycxxxx09 · Post by **joeycxxxx09** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 2:45 pm

OP, reading the instructions they make no mention of the answer sheet, only the sections of the test (do not work on, turn back, etc). As long as you didn't turn to the other sections, you could reasonably make the case that you had already filled in the answers, but you were just going back to darken/complete the bubbles for the previous section. Especially as a foreign student you could claim that they made no mention of the answer sheet in the instructions and you believed that the test booklet sections and the answer sheet were two separate entities which allowed you to darken in previous sections that had already been completed.

benwyatt · Post by **benwyatt** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 2:47 pm

Post removed.

lymenheimer · Post by **lymenheimer** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 2:47 pm

AfrocentricAsian wrote:
Nagster5 wrote:
If I couldn't finish half of the section on the LSAT before time I wouldn't go to law school. All this cheating stuff is probably a blessing in disguise trying to steer him away from financial ruin.
Yes, because one did poorly on a clearly learn-able test, they shouldn't go to law school. It's sad that most of you will be big time lawyers and hold some sort of powerful position in the near future.

Did you just gloss over as you read the bolded, or what? You'll find that many people hold this opinion because law school is expensive and many law schools don't lead to legal employment that can service the debt that they require to graduate...

lymenheimer · Post by **lymenheimer** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 2:49 pm

benwyatt wrote:
joeycxxxx09 wrote:OP, reading the instructions they make no mention of the answer sheet, only the sections of the test (do not work on, turn back, etc). As long as you didn't turn to the other sections, you could reasonably make the case that you had already filled in the answers, but you were just going back to darken/complete the bubbles for the previous section. Especially as a foreign student you could claim that they made no mention of the answer sheet in the instructions and you believed that the test booklet sections and the answer sheet were two separate entities which allowed you to darken in previous sections that had already been completed.
They absolutely make verbal mention of the answer sheet and say that you cannot go back to darken responses that are already marked.

This. Something like "do not go back to make erasures or marks, or darken your previous answer choices."