Reconsidering Testmasters. Forum

[MrSam]

Back when I first started doing research on prep courses, Testmasters seemed to be the one that stood out most. If memory serves right, nearly everyone who I spoke with recommended the course - cousin took it, scored in the 170 range after retaking the LSAT.
I recently started researching 2015 prep courses. Now I am seeing mixed results. Some loved TM, some hated it, and others did not know how to feel about it.
The course is going to cost me $1600, so before I spend that much money on something, I would like to be 100% certain that it will benefit me. I know no one here can assure me that it will, but I'm hoping you guys can shine some light on the matter.

Here is my plan:
-Take the October test, so that I can retake in December if need be.
-Self-study using the 3 Powerscore bibles, The LSAT Trainer, and SuperPrep II.
-Take a course.

I am aiming for YHS, but would be happy with any T7 school.

So, what do you all think of TM? I would prefer an in-person course, over an online course. I am currently looking at TM and Blueprint. And yes, I know I am running short on time.
Any and all advise is appreciated!

[RZ5646]

If you want HYS you want 173+. It's very unlikely that a prep course alone will get you that kind of score, since for business reasons they target average students. So I think a course would be a massive waste of money. Just self-study with books and PTs like all the top scorers seem to do.

[KMart]

I found the class to be a waste of money. I mean it helps with the foundations but I didn't see real improvement until I started self studying. In hindsight I regret taking the course and generally always recommend against it. They are just too expensive for information you can get for cheap IMO.

[MrSam]

Thank you, both. If you don't mind my asking, how did you two study? Just start reading randomly? Follow some type of schedule?
Also, what books did you use/are you using?
Thanks again, I truly appreciate the advise.

I have always done exceptionally well after taking some type of in-person course. Something about having an instructor present to answer questions has always helped.

[RZ5646]

I basically just did my own thing. If you look at most of the study schedule out there (e.g., Pithypike), they all boil down to "do a ton of drilling and PTs," so there's no reason to follow someone else's schedule to the letter as long as you're seeing enough material and drilling your weaknesses. People just enjoy the order and promise of a regimented schedule, in my opinion.

I think I have all the usual materials:

1. Superprep - not super helpful
2. LG Bible - recommended
3. LR Bible - haven't read enough to really form an opinion, but it looks inferior to Manhattan
4. Manhattan LR - recommended
5. LSAT Trainer - again, haven't read enough to form an opinion
6. PTs - obviously a must-have
7. Cambridge LG drilling packets - I tried not to use these because it would "contaminate" more PTs, but ultimately decided they're worth using if you're weak in LG
8. RC outside reading: Economist, philosophy books, novels, etc. - better than spending your spare time on Netflix and video games

[Jeffort]

...I mean it helps with the foundations but I didn't see real improvement until I started self studying...

This holds true about taking any prep course as well as to reading prep books or watching instructional prep videos instead of taking a prep class.

Learning/memorizing the fundamentals, concepts, various techniques, etc. LSAT knowledge stuff itself doesn't improve your score. Whether one takes a class or only self studies with prep books and/or videos, score improvement doesn't happen until/unless you put in a LOT of self-study/doing homework time on your own actually applying the stuff you learned to lots o LSAT questions along with deep thorough review of every question you attempt in order to get fluent with applying the concepts, techniques, etc. to actual questions really well, figuring out weaknesses that need more attention, etc. AKA putting in the solitary homework time on your own to get good at using and applying all the tools you learned from a class/prep books/videos.

During the many years I taught in person full length prep classes, the overwhelming majority of people that didn't see much improvement during or by the end of the course were the ones that didn't keep up with doing much of the per class lesson homework between class sessions to get good at applying and internalizing what was taught during each class lesson. The people that did make significant score improvements during and by the end of the course were the people that put in large amounts of time doing the homework on their own between each class lesson (which you can call self study since it's work you do on your own, but it's basically just putting in the time to drill and review LSAT questions to apply the LSAT knowledge you've learned).

It bothered me a lot that some people in courses I taught thought that just showing up to classes but not putting in very much homework/self-study time between classes would be enough to improve their scores as if they expected that just paying for and showing up to the classes themselves somehow would be enough to raise their scores so that they wouldn't have to put in the time to do the 'heavy lifting' solitary homework drilling and review/self-study work outside of class.

With classes, you only get as much out of them as you put into them in terms of how much work you do outside of class time putting what you are taught into action and using all the resources that come with the class during homework/self-study time in addition to what is taught during the lectures/class sessions.

Classes from different companies come with different amounts, types, quality level and depth of useful resources in addition to what's presented during the lectures/class sessions for students to use outside of class time during homework/self-study time to help with drilling, reviewing, figuring out weaknesses, working on weaknesses, fine tuning, getting a deeper understanding of higher level/more difficult concepts and/or to help get better with higher difficulty questions of whatever question and/or section type, etc. Beyond the materials and/or class sessions that focus on teaching the basic LSAT fundamentals, concepts, techniques, etc. that can also be found in inexpensive prep books, classes from some quality LSAT prep companies do provide a lot of quality very helpful resources for students to use during outside of class homework/self-study time that you cannot get from inexpensive self-study prep books/videos/resources alone or from classes from other inferior prep companies. One of the really important types of things I'm talking about is access to experienced knowledgeable instructors outside of class sessions/lecture time to assist you with questions and issues that pop up while doing self-study homework outside of class time. Another value you can get from some prep courses beyond learning the basics that's not extensively covered in most commercial prep books is in depth resources about the LSAT that breaks down the logic, various commonly repeated flawed methods of reasoning, and various other aspects of what's going on 'under the surface' of LSAT questions in detail almost down to a science regarding stuff the test writers use and do to create high difficulty level challenging questions that can be enormously valuable for getting into the high 160s/170s range. There is value you can get from some prep classes but not others beyond just learning the basics that are covered in prep books. So if one learns better in a structured class environment, there is value to be found from some prep courses that can significantly help people increase ones score more easily and efficiently than just doing self-study with prep books and using the free videos and online explanations that are available on the web.

Whichever way one preps, whether it be a live class, video class, prep books, review videos, mainly just taking PrepTests, etc., the skills building score improving magic still comes mainly from the same place, doing lots of solitary self-study drilling with deep thorough review. No particular class, book, videos, etc. by itself will raise ones score significantly. They teach/give people the tools needed to score better, but you still have to practice applying the knowledge a lot to internalize it and get better at applying it to improve your LSAT skills. Significant score improvements always come mainly from putting in lots of quality effective prep work time on your own drilling, reviewing, practicing, figuring out weaknesses, addressing weaknesses, etc. There is no way around having to put in a lot of 'self-study' time to significantly improve ones score no matter whether one takes a class or preps some other way with whatever type of LSAT prep resources.

[MrSam]

I basically just did my own thing. If you look at most of the study schedule out there (e.g., Pithypike), they all boil down to "do a ton of drilling and PTs," so there's no reason to follow someone else's schedule to the letter as long as you're seeing enough material and drilling your weaknesses. People just enjoy the order and promise of a regimented schedule, in my opinion.

I think I have all the usual materials:

1. Superprep - not super helpful
2. LG Bible - recommended
3. LR Bible - haven't read enough to really form an opinion, but it looks inferior to Manhattan
4. Manhattan LR - recommended
5. LSAT Trainer - again, haven't read enough to form an opinion
6. PTs - obviously a must-have
7. Cambridge LG drilling packets - I tried not to use these because it would "contaminate" more PTs, but ultimately decided they're worth using if you're weak in LG
8. RC outside reading: Economist, philosophy books, novels, etc. - better than spending your spare time on Netflix and video games

Thanks, RZ. I have a few of your recommended books. I am currently looking into the Cambridge LG drills. The only problem is, there are so many and I wouldn't know which to purchase. I am assuming that most people simply purchase the whole lot.

I think my best bet would be to self-study and take the October LSAT. Then, if I feel that I did poorly, I can always take the December test.
I was hoping to avoid taking multiple tests. My cousin graduated from Northwestern and informed me that they prefer students who only took the exam once - he took the October test, then canceled his score 2 days later.

[MrSam]

...I mean it helps with the foundations but I didn't see real improvement until I started self studying...

This holds true about taking any prep course as well as to reading prep books or watching instructional prep videos instead of taking a prep class.

Learning/memorizing the fundamentals, concepts, various techniques, etc. LSAT knowledge stuff itself doesn't improve your score. Whether one takes a class or only self studies with prep books and/or videos, score improvement doesn't happen until/unless you put in a LOT of self-study/doing homework time on your own actually applying the stuff you learned to lots o LSAT questions along with deep thorough review of every question you attempt in order to get fluent with applying the concepts, techniques, etc. to actual questions really well, figuring out weaknesses that need more attention, etc. AKA putting in the solitary homework time on your own to get good at using and applying all the tools you learned from a class/prep books/videos.

During the many years I taught in person full length prep classes, the overwhelming majority of people that didn't see much improvement during or by the end of the course were the ones that didn't keep up with doing much of the per class lesson homework between class sessions to get good at applying and internalizing what was taught during each class lesson. The people that did make significant score improvements during and by the end of the course were the people that put in large amounts of time doing the homework on their own between each class lesson (which you can call self study since it's work you do on your own, but it's basically just putting in the time to drill and review LSAT questions to apply the LSAT knowledge you've learned).

It bothered me a lot that some people in courses I taught thought that just showing up to classes but not putting in very much homework/self-study time between classes would be enough to improve their scores as if they expected that just paying for and showing up to the classes themselves somehow would be enough to raise their scores so that they wouldn't have to put in the time to do the 'heavy lifting' solitary homework drilling and review/self-study work outside of class.

With classes, you only get as much out of them as you put into them in terms of how much work you do outside of class time putting what you are taught into action and using all the resources that come with the class during homework/self-study time in addition to what is taught during the lectures/class sessions. Classes from different companies come with different amounts, types, quality level and depth of useful resources in addition to what's presented during the lectures/class sessions for students to use outside of class time during homework/self-study time to help with drilling, reviewing, figuring out weaknesses, working on weaknesses, fine tuning, getting a deeper understanding of higher level/more difficult concepts and/or to help get better with higher difficulty questions of whatever question and/or section type, etc.

Whichever way one preps, whether it be a live class, video class, prep books, review videos, mainly just taking PrepTests, etc., the skills building score improving magic still comes mainly from the same place, doing lots of solitary self-study drilling with deep thorough review. No particular class, book, videos, etc. by itself will raise ones score significantly. They teach/give people the tools needed to score better, but you still have to practice applying the knowledge a lot to internalize it and get better at applying it to improve your LSAT skills. Significant score improvements always come mainly from putting in lots of quality effective prep work time on your own drilling, reviewing, practicing, figuring out weaknesses, addressing weaknesses, etc. There is no way around having to put in a lot of 'self-study' time to significantly improve ones score no matter whether one takes a class or preps some other way with whatever type of LSAT prep resources.

Thanks for that. I have no problem self-studying. I know that if someone were to give me a set schedule, outlining what I should read and do by a specific day, I would be able to do it, no problem. I have found studying for the LSAT to be quite fun, but get frustrated if things aren't clear after reviewing the problem multiple times. The LG and LR sections really irk me. I think it is because I haven't had the chance to review my prep books quite yet. I basically started drilling blind, which I now realize was a horrible mistake. If Amazon would hurry up and ship my books, that would be wonderful.
I think the reason that I really want to take a class is for reassurance (i.e. having someone to tell me that my approach is correct, or that I do in fact understand why the answer is what it is).

[ihenry]

Take a recent prep test for diagnostic. If you start off with like ~165, you don't need classes at all. Being the top student in your class is not going to terribly help you.

[somethingElse]

Post removed...

[MrSam]

Take a recent prep test for diagnostic. If you start off with like ~165, you don't need classes at all. Being the top student in your class is not going to terribly help you.

Considering how frustrating I have found some of the practice questions to be, I will probably score in the low 160's, or somewhere around 150. Either way, I will be taking test 65 this Wednesday.

[MrSam]

Thank you, both. If you don't mind my asking, how did you two study? Just start reading randomly? Follow some type of schedule?
Also, what books did you use/are you using?
Thanks again, I truly appreciate the advise.

I have always done exceptionally well after taking some type of in-person course. Something about having an instructor present to answer questions has always helped.

This sentence right here leads me to suggest that you stick with the course. I'm not familiar with how the Testmaster's course progresses, but I took a Blueprint course for the June test and I did think it was helpful. If you ask the instructor tons of questions and stay after class for extra help if possible, it can definitely be worth the money considering how much private tutors cost.

However, the Blueprint course was really about half or maybe two thirds of the amount of prep that I think is sufficient for scoring 170+ for most people. By the end of the course I had all the fundamentals down and had strategies for each section and question type, but not quite enough timed section work to really be comfortable on that end and to really hammer home the concepts. But like I said, I don't know how Testmasters works, maybe its different.
I would look into the pacing of the course and see when it is that you are done learning all of the concepts, as well as how many PTs they have you take (Blueprint for example only has you take 6 officially, but they have extras).

EDIT: The above post is great advice too, IMO. If you do score that high on your diagnostic then don't take the course. But if you're under 160 its worth looking into.

Considering what has been stated thus far, I will be taking that course. As far as I can tell, Testmasters seems to conduct their classes at a comfortable pace. 2 sessions a week, 1 PT on Saturday - total of 15 PTs, if memory serves right.
You brought up a concern of mine. The final Testmasters class is 1 week before the LSAT. That gives me little to no time to do some post-course studying. This is something that I absolutely need. I suppose I could always take the December test if things do not go well - this would give me an additional 2 months to study.

[PodPeople]

I took a Testmaster's in person course and I felt, in the end, like it was a waste of money. I paid $1500 for the course. Now that I'm studying on my own with $200 in books I realize how much of a fool I was for paying $1500 for books and online explanations that I could get for a fraction of the cost.

I've seen more improvement with self-study on a strict schedule. Do that. Don't do Testmasters.

[Glasseyes]

Considering what has been stated thus far, I will be taking that course. As far as I can tell, Testmasters seems to conduct their classes at a comfortable pace. 2 sessions a week, 1 PT on Saturday - total of 15 PTs, if memory serves right.
You brought up a concern of mine. The final Testmasters class is 1 week before the LSAT. That gives me little to no time to do some post-course studying. This is something that I absolutely need. I suppose I could always take the December test if things do not go well - this would give me an additional 2 months to study.

If Testmasters is anything like Powerscore (and it probably is), part of the program involves taking an insane amount of PT's on your own towards the end anyway. I self-studied for about 45 days then did Powerscore, and I wound up taking just about all of the available tests. It's designed to end just before the exam for a reason, but only you know if that reason makes sense for you. FWIW, I'm glad I took the class because it (a) forced me to prep to a rigid schedule, which was a challenge for me otherwise since I was working full time, and (b) illustrated some nuanced little bits of knowledge I wouldn't have otherwise picked up from the books. Probably depends hugely on your prof, but I liked my guy enough.

[PodPeople]

You're paying $1500 to do pt's that you can get from LSAC for $40! You're paying $1500 for a set of books that have nothing but released LSAT questions that you can, again, get from LSAC for $40.

The classes are for beginners. You can make your own study schedule and find a study buddy and save $1500.

[k5220]

i took testmasters a few years ago and would highly recommend it. i started at a 160 (before studying) and got a 175.
the LSAT is a learnable test. the people at testmasters have it down to a science and present the concepts you need to learn in a structured way. it was absolutely worth it for me, and i paid for the class myself.

[bigv]

I took testmasters in the Spring. It definitely did not prepare me from a low cold diag to be ready in June, even though that's the plan of the course. Basically, I spent around $900 (got a discount for being a current UG student) just to be introduced to the test.

I'm now a firm believer in using these forums and online resources/books over any prep course.

[Calbears123]

Learned more from self study. Testmasters has, in my opinion, a bad teaching method. I remember the first day of class they taught us how to diagram (which isn't bad) and then gave us 50 problems to diagram, but absolutely no idea how to solve the problems (Those first 50 problems are all different types of LSAT problems) So I spent the first 2 or so weeks extremely confused. They also jump into MOST and SOME problems the second day (the hardest problems IMO) and then switch into must be true problems in the same lecture. Unless you have a good teacher you'll go into day 2 homework again somewhat confused because you'll be in the mindset that every problem is a diagram able MOST SOME problem, when they are not. For someone with no prior LSAT experience, the first 3 weeks of testmasters is extremely discouraging.

I liked the trainer's method imo more because it started out with teaching flaws, and the trainer also made RC easier to approach. Testmasters gives no clear RC guide other than underlining a few things (which I found a huge waste of time)

LG I guess depends on whose teaching. My teacher used the LG section to show how fuck'n smart he was and would draw out every inference he could on the board as fast as possible (I guess they are easy when you've already done them 100 times). Trainer and logic bible are better for games.

I think for the average LSAT taker testmasters can get you from 150 to 160 in the three months the full course is, but it doesn't give enough time for alot of practice tests. I'd take it at least 6 months before your scheduled LSAT.

I guess if there are any pros to testmasters is you don't actually have to show up to class, and just watch all the class videos online.

[MrSam]

Thanks everyone, this thread has been a real eye-opener. From what I've gathered, Testmasters is either almost useless (if you can buckle down and stick to a strict study schedule) or really helpful (if you go in with some prior knowledge).
Out of curiosity, for those of you who took Testmasters, who was your instructor?
I wish I had purchased my books months ago, so that I could assess whether self-studying would work for me, then determine if a course is necessary. I suppose victory favors the prepared.
I will do some free online trial courses first, then determine if an in-person course will really benefit me. From this thread alone, I can tell that the community here serves as a valuable asset to anyone studying for the LSAT.

[GospelLeague]

I'm currently taking TM in the Chicago area. The instructor is quite helpful, but I don't know other instructors so there's no comparison.

The course can be helpful if you drills on your own, and it forces you to put in some time for serious study. TM has an awesome online system where you can basically ask any questions regarding the test and someone will give you detailed explanation within 24 hrs. It is almost a private tutor.