Why people's score drops considerably on fresh tests(Instruc

natashka85
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Why people's score drops considerably on fresh tests(Instruc

Postby natashka85 » Wed Feb 04, 2015 4:28 pm

Please only Lsat Instructors.....

I have been studying for the Lsat for a long time trying to combine it w my work,i exhausted all the tests except the last two tests which were fresh,I was scoring consistently 175 range ,the way I improved by drilling type and applying line specific approach(elimination),i am very disappointed and wanna withdraw my lsat for Feb,cause when I took one of the fresh tests my score dropped considerably,I started struggling w timing and started missing a lot of questions on LR and RC,so please advice me how to overcome this problem?

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Jeffort
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Re: Why people's score drops considerably on fresh tests(Instruc

Postby Jeffort » Wed Feb 04, 2015 4:56 pm

We need more detailed information about what happened with the fresh PT you did that didn't go well. How much of a score drop are you talking about? What was the breakdown of your performance in each of the sections? Are you saying that you ran out of time in some sections and had to blind guess on several questions? You said you missed a lot of Qs on LR and RC, how many specifically? What types of things do you think slowed you down/caused you trouble? What specific types of mistakes did you make with the questions you got wrong? What types of issues happened on this PT that haven't been an issue on your previous PTs that were in the 175 range? Have you reviewed all the Qs from the PT to pinpoint exactly what went wrong/what was troublesome with each Q you missed and/or struggled with?

More detailed information and context is necessary for me or any other LSAT instructor/tutor to be able to offer meaningful/useful advice without having to guess/speculate about what your particular issues were with the fresh PT as compared to what's been happening on the PTs (I assume they're ones you've seen before) you've been scoring around 175 on recently.

Obviously, using process of elimination is a powerful method for attacking a solving many questions efficiently and should be part of everyone's methods, but could you describe more specifically what you mean by that being your main strategy?

If you're almost entirely relying on POE instead of also basing many of your answer selections on you actually recognizing the correct answer as correct by actually seeing/understanding the logic behind it at the time you're analyzing the answer choices, that could certainly cause trouble with the higher difficulty questions and questions with really compelling/tricky attractive trap answers.
Last edited by Jeffort on Wed Feb 04, 2015 5:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

natashka85
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Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:29 pm

Re: Why people's score drops considerably on fresh tests(Instruc

Postby natashka85 » Wed Feb 04, 2015 5:08 pm

[quote="Jeffort"]We need more detailed information about what happened with the fresh PT you did that didn't go well. How much of a score drop are you talking about? What was the breakdown of your performance in each of the sections? Are you saying that you ran out of time in some sections and had to blind guess on several questions? You said you missed a lot of Qs on LR and RC, how many specifically? What types of things do you think slowed you down/caused you trouble? What specific types of mistakes did you make with the question you got wrong? What types of issues happened on this PT that haven't been an issue on your previous PTs that were in the 175 range? Have you reviewed all the Qs from the PT to pinpoint exactly what went wrong/what was troublesome with each Q you missed and/or struggled with?








I think older tests are easier for me to read(the ones I took before) and the last fresh tests are harder to read ,but i don't remember any answer choices otherwise it would mean that I remember equal number of answer choices from each test I took before,cause my score was consistent ,its just easier for me to read and dissect Rc and LR problems there,its like I have to pull out everything on fresh test to read or maybe I am burnt ,Lr is very tricky for me , some of the right answers are weird and unpredictable for me ,I started missing questions on ''weakening and flaw'' questions,what about the timing I can say this ,i manage to read only 22 questions in LR and RC,but in my diagnostics I was finishing 5-7 mins earlier in each section,if any Lsat instructor is willing to offer private tutoring on Skype i am open to take any advice if its gonna help me to overcome this problem.

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Jeffort
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Re: Why people's score drops considerably on fresh tests(Instruc

Postby Jeffort » Fri Feb 06, 2015 4:09 am

What you're describing, especially this part:

...its just easier for me to read and dissect Rc and LR problems there,its like I have to pull out everything on fresh test to read...


is most likely because you're already somewhat if not really familiar with the arguments/stimulus/passages on the previous tests you've worked before and therefore when re-taking them as PT's your brain doesn't have to start from ground zero/zero prior familiarity with the materal and work as hard to process the text/material in order to get a good clear accurate understanding of the stimulus/passage into your mind before heading into the answer choices. Even though you don't remember which answer choice is correct for the questions, since you've already analyzed (and probably reviewed) the stimulus/arguments/passages before, that previous exposure and familiarity makes it easier to read, process and accurately comprehend the material properly at a faster rate and makes you less likely to misinterpret tricky arguments/sentences/phrases/grammar/vocabulary that's burned you on past attempts of the same questions.

Half the battle of the LSAT on test day under the strictly timed conditions is being able to quickly read fresh subject matter arguments/passages/text you've never seen before/have zero prior exposure to and being able to process it quickly and accurately to get a clear enough comprehension/understanding of the substance and underlying logical structure without any serious/fatal misunderstandings/reading or analysis errors in order to then be adequately prepared to accurately analyze and process how each of the answer choices relates to the stimulus/argument/passage to figure out which one correctly answers the question stem.

One of many common tactics the test writers use to construct high difficulty level questions is writing/phrasing the argument/stimulus/passage/answer choices in ways using complex grammar/wording/phrasing/organization of the ideas/etc. that is difficult to process and comprehend quickly without misinterpretation, which is part of how the LSAT specifically tests reading comprehension/processing of complex text/critical reading skills while under pressure.

From the little info you gave about how you performed on the fresh PT regarding how many questions you weren't even able to attempt before time ran out, it sounds like you probably scored far below your recent PTs 175 PT range by at least 10-15 scaled points on the fresh PT, but I'm just guessing. If that's the case, there isn't anything a tutor could do for you that would help you address and fix your issues before the test this Saturday if your target score is 170s range since this doesn't sound like a quick fix/last minute fine tuning or just had one fluke/anomaly bad PT day type of situation. Instead, it sounds a lot more like those PT scores are significantly inflated/do not accurately represent your current true LSAT score range performance level under test conditions with a fresh LSAT like you'll face on test day.

With the small amount of information you provided, that's about all I can offer about your situation at the moment and would need a lot more specific information to better evaluate how significantly your prior exposure to the non-fresh PTs has been influencing/inflating your PT scores and allowing you to be able to finish sections with so much time left per section.

RE: your recent timed 175 score range PT's
Roughly how many times had you seen/taken/worked/analyzed/drilled the questions and how deeply had you reviewed them in the past since you very first began LSAT prep BEFORE you recently re-took them as timed PTs and hit ~175 scores on them?

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ltowns1
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Re: Why people's score drops considerably on fresh tests(Instruc

Postby ltowns1 » Fri Feb 06, 2015 9:02 am

Jeffort wrote:What you're describing, especially this part:

...its just easier for me to read and dissect Rc and LR problems there,its like I have to pull out everything on fresh test to read...


is most likely because you're already somewhat if not really familiar with the arguments/stimulus/passages on the previous tests you've worked before and therefore when re-taking them as PT's your brain doesn't have to start from ground zero/zero prior familiarity with the materal and work as hard to process the text/material in order to get a good clear accurate understanding of the stimulus/passage into your mind before heading into the answer choices. Even though you don't remember which answer choice is correct for the questions, since you've already analyzed (and probably reviewed) the stimulus/arguments/passages before, that previous exposure and familiarity makes it easier to read, process and accurately comprehend the material properly at a faster rate and makes you less likely to misinterpret tricky arguments/sentences/phrases/grammar/vocabulary that's burned you on past attempts of the same questions.

Half the battle of the LSAT on test day under the strictly timed conditions is being able to quickly read fresh subject matter arguments/passages/text you've never seen before/have zero prior exposure to and being able to process it quickly and accurately to get a clear enough comprehension/understanding of the substance and underlying logical structure without any serious/fatal misunderstandings/reading or analysis errors in order to then be adequately prepared to accurately analyze and process how each of the answer choices relates to the stimulus/argument/passage to figure out which one correctly answers the question stem.

One of many common tactics the test writers use to construct high difficulty level questions is writing/phrasing the argument/stimulus/passage/answer choices in ways using complex grammar/wording/phrasing/organization of the ideas/etc. that is difficult to process and comprehend quickly without misinterpretation, which is part of how the LSAT specifically tests reading comprehension/processing of complex text/critical reading skills while under pressure.

From the little info you gave about how you performed on the fresh PT regarding how many questions you weren't even able to attempt before time ran out, it sounds like you probably scored far below your recent PTs 175 PT range by at least 10-15 scaled points on the fresh PT, but I'm just guessing. If that's the case, there isn't anything a tutor could do for you that would help you address and fix your issues before the test this Saturday if your target score is 170s range since this doesn't sound like a quick fix/last minute fine tuning or just had one fluke/anomaly bad PT day type of situation. Instead, it sounds a lot more like those PT scores are significantly inflated/do not accurately represent your current true LSAT score range performance level under test conditions with a fresh LSAT like you'll face on test day.

With the small amount of information you provided, that's about all I can offer about your situation at the moment and would need a lot more specific information to better evaluate how significantly your prior exposure to the non-fresh PTs has been influencing/inflating your PT scores and allowing you to be able to finish sections with so much time left per section.

RE: your recent timed 175 score range PT's
Roughly how many times had you seen/taken/worked/analyzed/drilled the questions and how deeply had you reviewed them in the past since you very first began LSAT prep BEFORE you recently re-took them as timed PTs and hit ~175 scores on them?



Hey jeffort, do you have any general advice on how to avoid what Natashka85 is dealing with, or is it just a thing of concentration and focus?

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Jeffort
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Re: Why people's score drops considerably on fresh tests(Instruc

Postby Jeffort » Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:42 am

ltowns1 wrote:
Hey jeffort, do you have any general advice on how to avoid what Natashka85 is dealing with, or is it just a thing of concentration and focus?


Overlooked your post until just now ltowns.

To avoid ending up in her situation, keep doing what it appears you're already doing based on your posts here. Use the available LSAT questions/PTs wisely and learn as much as you can from every question you attempt instead of just blowing through a bunch of materials doing what I call the 'churn and burn' prep method of just taking a bunch of timed PTs and doing high speed 'drilling' essentially playing 'pin the tail on the donkey' over and over again without doing much if any meaningful review to learn from mistakes, improve your understanding of the underlying logic being tested over and over, to change your thinking and approaches along the way to fix bad habits, etc.

From the little info OP provided, it sounds like she just plowed through and wasted a bunch of fresh tests/LSAT materials over and over without doing much skills building slow motion drilling and deep review of everything attempted fresh along the way to learn the underlying logic better and learn from her mistakes. Don't fall into the trap of feeling like you have to do a bunch of timed PTs all the time to boost your ego/make yourself feel better/to measure and see progress (PT scores) obsessively often instead of doing the 'heavy lifting' drilling and deep review skills building work that is essential to improving ones skills in between taking timed PTs.

Something students fail to recognize or consider is that the percentile distribution of achieved scaled scores on the modern LSAT format that began with PT #1 in June 1991 hasn't shifted much in the last 23 years since PT #1 even though test takers now have tons more real LSAT questions/PTs to practice and learn with than people that took past tests when there were far fewer PTs available. Even though test takers currently have a giant supply of fresh PTs to prep with and learn from (79 in total as of now) compared to all 23 preceding years, there hasn't been any significant or corresponding progressive change or increase in the % of people that have achieved any of the specific scores from 160-180 since 1991, only slight shifts within a percentage point or two in a few spots on the scale even though people in the 1990s only had a fraction of the number of PTs to prep with compared to test takers today!

Used correctly with quality prep methods and review, one can improve their score significantly and to their peak potential with 20-30 total PTs (or less!). Quality use of LSAT questions to learn the underlying logic and skills being tested to get better at them is far more important than the quantity of them you do to prep.

Perhaps this thread could become a list of prep pitfalls to avoid based on things people did that didn't turn out well that they learned from if anyone that reads this want's to share their experiences to help future test takers just getting started for the new cycle this year.

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ltowns1
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Re: Why people's score drops considerably on fresh tests(Instruc

Postby ltowns1 » Wed Feb 11, 2015 11:31 am

Jeffort wrote:
ltowns1 wrote:
Hey jeffort, do you have any general advice on how to avoid what Natashka85 is dealing with, or is it just a thing of concentration and focus?


Overlooked your post until just now ltowns.

To avoid ending up in her situation, keep doing what it appears you're already doing based on your posts here. Use the available LSAT questions/PTs wisely and learn as much as you can from every question you attempt instead of just blowing through a bunch of materials doing what I call the 'churn and burn' prep method of just taking a bunch of timed PTs and doing high speed 'drilling' essentially playing 'pin the tail on the donkey' over and over again without doing much if any meaningful review to learn from mistakes, improve your understanding of the underlying logic being tested over and over, to change your thinking and approaches along the way to fix bad habits, etc.

From the little info OP provided, it sounds like she just plowed through and wasted a bunch of fresh tests/LSAT materials over and over without doing much skills building slow motion drilling and deep review of everything attempted fresh along the way to learn the underlying logic better and learn from her mistakes. Don't fall into the trap of feeling like you have to do a bunch of timed PTs all the time to boost your ego/make yourself feel better/to measure and see progress (PT scores) obsessively often instead of doing the 'heavy lifting' drilling and deep review skills building work that is essential to improving ones skills in between taking timed PTs.

Something students fail to recognize or consider is that the percentile distribution of achieved scaled scores on the modern LSAT format that began with PT #1 in June 1991 hasn't shifted much in the last 23 years since PT #1 even though test takers now have tons more real LSAT questions/PTs to practice and learn with than people that took past tests when there were far fewer PTs available. Even though test takers currently have a giant supply of fresh PTs to prep with and learn from (79 in total as of now) compared to all 23 preceding years, there hasn't been any significant or corresponding progressive change or increase in the % of people that have achieved any of the specific scores from 160-180 since 1991, only slight shifts within a percentage point or two in a few spots on the scale even though people in the 1990s only had a fraction of the number of PTs to prep with compared to test takers today!

Used correctly with quality prep methods and review, one can improve their score significantly and to their peak potential with 20-30 total PTs (or less!). Quality use of LSAT questions to learn the underlying logic and skills being tested to get better at them is far more important than the quantity of them you do to prep.

Perhaps this thread could become a list of prep pitfalls to avoid based on things people did that didn't turn out well that they learned from if anyone that reads this want's to share their experiences to help future test takers just getting started for the new cycle this year.


No worries, I'm just glad you saw it! I appreciate the advice thanks.




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