DECEMBER 2014 WAITERS Forum

[PeanutsNJam]

It's a mysterious process and their ways are yet to be fully understood.

Basically this.

We don't know exactly what they're doing to prepare for score release, but we do know when scores are most likely to be released. We can't speculate on the basis of anything but past data, since nobody here works for LSAC.

I do wonder why an LSAC employee has never (to my knowledge) released information about how the scoring is done and why the wait is somewhat lengthy. I don't see how this would violate any ethical obligation. Out of curiosity, I would like to know how it was done since so many speculate about it.

My guess is that since the test is administered globally, it takes that long to consolidate all the scantrons, investigate anomalies, decide whether certain questions needed to be removed from scoring, etc. Every time someone calls saying so-and-so cheated, they investigate. If proctors report some sketchy behavior, the investigate. They don't release scores until all due diligence is done. It's a lot more than running scantrons through a machine and then hitting the "send scores" button.

[Skool]

Eh. The bottom line is, LSAC sucks. Processing is not so hard that the offices can close for a week or so while applicants' lives hang in limbo. Maybe it's not as simple as scanning some paper and sending some emails, but it could be done faster and more efficiently than they do now (they've been administering these tests globally for years now, how come they never get faster at delivering results?). They're just a bunch of shiftless rent seeking bureaucrats. They could do better in terms of efficiency and pricing if they wanted to, but they won't.

So... yeah. I really, truly, from the bottom of my heart hope that they and their families have horrible Christmases. This might be the first time in my life I've begrudged someone Christmas with their families. They don't take my life seriously, so fuck em.

[jjtomp]

So what happens if I just pretend that the number in the empty box where the score is supposed to be says "180"?

[peppermint]

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[Skool]

No doubt, it will surprise you to hear that I'm not a hugger. I appreciate the offer, though.

[peppermint]

.

[cmac2210]

It's a mysterious process and their ways are yet to be fully understood.

Basically this.

We don't know exactly what they're doing to prepare for score release, but we do know when scores are most likely to be released. We can't speculate on the basis of anything but past data, since nobody here works for LSAC.

I do wonder why an LSAC employee has never (to my knowledge) released information about how the scoring is done and why the wait is somewhat lengthy. I don't see how this would violate any ethical obligation. Out of curiosity, I would like to know how it was done since so many speculate about it.

My guess is that since the test is administered globally, it takes that long to consolidate all the scantrons, investigate anomalies, decide whether certain questions needed to be removed from scoring, etc. Every time someone calls saying so-and-so cheated, they investigate. If proctors report some sketchy behavior, the investigate. They don't release scores until all due diligence is done. It's a lot more than running scantrons through a machine and then hitting the "send scores" button.

No, it really is just a button. All that other stuff is done by now man. You think they will be investigating people for cheating on the day before the scheduled release, nope. They just don't want to push the button before the holidays.

[PeanutsNJam]

Eh. The bottom line is, LSAC sucks. Processing is not so hard that the offices can close for a week or so while applicants' lives hang in limbo. Maybe it's not as simple as scanning some paper and sending some emails, but it could be done faster and more efficiently than they do now (they've been administering these tests globally for years now, how come they never get faster at delivering results?). They're just a bunch of shiftless rent seeking bureaucrats. They could do better in terms of efficiency and pricing if they wanted to, but they won't.

So... yeah. I really, truly, from the bottom of my heart hope that they and their families have horrible Christmases. This might be the first time in my life I've begrudged someone Christmas with their families. They don't take my life seriously, so fuck em.

Well, when I took the test in Sept, it was in HK. This Dec, they administered in Shanghai, and in a few other SE Asian countries. They also administer in the Middle East, Eastern Europe, and Europe. How long do you think it takes to mail everything from those locations to Pennsylvania? A fair amount of time. Let's say they expedite it and get all that shit within the offices in 2 weeks. It should only take a few days to scantron and log everything, so let's say "score processing" takes a week. We're at 3 weeks now, assuming no bumps in the road and optimal efficiency.

You have people who request hand-scoring, and this is no small number. So you have a bunch of people who have to score a bunch of LSATs by hand. This will take another few days. Bump in the road.

You have cheating accusations and testing center complaints, and LSAC needs to resolve these. Investigations take at least a few days. Bump in the road.

Then you have a committee that needs to decide if all the questions were fair after looking at the aggregate statistics, and decide if questions need to be removed. This will take another few days. Bump in the road.

Employees get weekends off to go home and live their life. Bump in the road.

They no doubt have to field angry phone calls about why scores aren't out. Bump in the road.

[Insert other problems and things that need to be done that I don't know about.]

Bottom line: LSAC no doubt spends tremendous time and money into ensuring the integrity of the scores they release.

While some of these things can be done simultaneously, LSAC does not have an army. It also has to handle applications (which is probably a majority of their work load), CAS, CRS, LLM applications, and various other things.

Just make sure your lack of perspective and analytically thought don't show through in your law school applications. You're all like that drunken asshole who complains the bartender isn't getting your drink fast enough, when he has 12 orders ahead of you in a packed bar, is low on ice, the barback is out on a smoke break, and has 6 people who all want to split the bill evenly and pay with 6 different credit cards. Oh, right, he just ran out of Beefeater so he has to run to storage and get another bottle because the asshole before you just really needs his gin and tonic right now with Beefeater. Tanqueray is not ok.

So no, cmac, it is not just a button.

[peppermint]

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[Sofie4400]

Can't you only request hand scoring once you actually get your score?

[PeanutsNJam]

Can't you only request hand scoring once you actually get your score?

Yes you're right you can only request after you get your score, my bad.

[Wieters]

Eh. The bottom line is, LSAC sucks. Processing is not so hard that the offices can close for a week or so while applicants' lives hang in limbo. Maybe it's not as simple as scanning some paper and sending some emails, but it could be done faster and more efficiently than they do now (they've been administering these tests globally for years now, how come they never get faster at delivering results?). They're just a bunch of shiftless rent seeking bureaucrats. They could do better in terms of efficiency and pricing if they wanted to, but they won't.

So... yeah. I really, truly, from the bottom of my heart hope that they and their families have horrible Christmases. This might be the first time in my life I've begrudged someone Christmas with their families. They don't take my life seriously, so fuck em.

Well, when I took the test in Sept, it was in HK. This Dec, they administered in Shanghai, and in a few other SE Asian countries. They also administer in the Middle East, Eastern Europe, and Europe. How long do you think it takes to mail everything from those locations to Pennsylvania? A fair amount of time. Let's say they expedite it and get all that shit within the offices in 2 weeks. It should only take a few days to scantron and log everything, so let's say "score processing" takes a week. We're at 3 weeks now, assuming no bumps in the road and optimal efficiency.

You have people who request hand-scoring, and this is no small number. So you have a bunch of people who have to score a bunch of LSATs by hand. This will take another few days. Bump in the road.

You have cheating accusations and testing center complaints, and LSAC needs to resolve these. Investigations take at least a few days. Bump in the road.

Then you have a committee that needs to decide if all the questions were fair after looking at the aggregate statistics, and decide if questions need to be removed. This will take another few days. Bump in the road.

Employees get weekends off to go home and live their life. Bump in the road.

They no doubt have to field angry phone calls about why scores aren't out. Bump in the road.

While some of these things can be done simultaneously, LSAC does not have an army. It also has to handle applications (which is a majority of their work load), CAS, CRS, LLM applications, and various other things.

If all this is true, then the crux to me is that the LSAC is insistent upon issuing all scores at the same time. My questions, then, is whether it is unreasonable for them to stagger releases like corporations do with products, ie iPhone in North America first, then Asia etc.

Assuming the things you mentioned plus scanning documents and assigning percentages (which seems like an exhaustive list of the things they NEED to complete before releasing), then 2 business weeks seems like a reasonable timeframe to complete all that. So, domestic test takers who didn't ask for hand grading could get it in 2-3 weeks, rather than 5.

You would know better than I as it appears you live in Shanghai, but I mailed something there in October and it took 5 days without rush shipping, and that was guaranteed. So if shipping takes ~5 business days, they've added another ~5 business days, presumably so as to allow proctors the time to write comments and collect whatever else they need. Fine.

Even still, they've received everything internationally within 2 business weeks. Add another 2 for the above process and internationals are at 4 weeks rather than 5.

Regarding hand-scoring, these test takers requested this through faults of their own doing. Why not make them wait individually and not punish everyone else? I'm literally asking.

If hand-scoring takes ~2 business weeks, then domestic hand-scorers also get it in 4 rather than 5 when taking into account the above process.

Hand-scoring international test takers get it in 5-6, taking into account the above.

I totally understand the reasons posted here and previously as to why it takes them as long as it does, but given that the vast majority of applicants take the test in the US and do not require hand-scoring, why make everyone wait what is a long time in absolute terms? I'm planning on beginning law school in August and so every second counts.

[Skool]

Well, when I took the test in Sept, it was in HK. This Dec, they administered in Shanghai, and in a few other SE Asian countries. They also administer in the Middle East, Eastern Europe, and Europe. How long do you think it takes to mail everything from those locations to Pennsylvania? A fair amount of time. Let's say they expedite it and get all that shit within the offices in 2 weeks. It should only take a few days to scantron and log everything, so let's say "score processing" takes a week. We're at 3 weeks now, assuming no bumps in the road and optimal efficiency.

This seems to assume the need to ship things internationally as opposed to processing at a local hub. It also seems to assume the need to process everything before releasing anything. The reason for these being necessities don't seem to be a given to me.

And if push came to shove, considering the relatively small portion of lsats given internationally, is it really impossible to account for the curve or items to be disqualified (which is extremely rare) without analyzing international scores/through statistical extrapolation? I've never seen reason to believe this.

You have people who request hand-scoring, and this is no small number. So you have a bunch of people who have to score a bunch of LSATs by hand. This will take another few days. Bump in the road.

I was only familiar with handscoring as being an option after your score was released. Maybe I'm missing something.

You have cheating accusations and testing center complaints, and LSAC needs to resolve these. Investigations take at least a few days. Bump in the road.

How many cheating accusations can there be? It seems strange that core score processing/finalizing must be held up for the sake of a minority of administrations. Again, is this really a statistically significant percent such that things can't move forward until it's sorted.

Then you have a committee that needs to decide if all the questions were fair after looking at the aggregate statistics, and decide if questions need to be removed. This will take another few days. Bump in the road.

I'm not familiar with this process. The fact that items are pre-tested on the fifth section before actually used would seem to handle this issue on the front end. Maybe you have more insights into the process though. Genuinely interested in a link because this is actually fascinating separate and apart from waiting bellyaching.

Employees get weekends off to go home and live their life. Bump in the road.

As someone who's worked through multiple Christmases for the sake of clients and the almighty court, I couldn't care less.

While some of these things can be done simultaneously, LSAC does not have an army. It also has to handle applications (which is a majority of their work load), CAS, CRS, LLM applications, and various other things.

They have plenty of money in the bank. Lots of global operations expand and contract labor pools as needed. It's a matter of will and management.

Just make sure your lack of perspective and analytically though doesn't show through in your law school applications. You're all like that drunken asshole who complains the bartender isn't getting your drink fast enough, when he has 12 orders ahead of you in a packed bar, is low on ice, the barback is out on a smoke break, and has 6 people who all want to split the bill evenly and pay with 6 different credit cards. Oh, right, he just ran out of Beefeater so he has to run to storage and get another bottle because the asshole before you just really needs his gin and tonic right now with Beefeater. Tanqueray is not ok.

I'm happy to leave this for you and others to decide. You seem to be giving a lot of benefit of the doubt to LSAC which is fine. However, your arguments seem to make a ton of unexplained assumptions, especially regarding the need to process and release all at once.

[PeanutsNJam]

I am certain they ship for processing in Pennsylvania. Processing at a local hub is just another junction where scores can be manipulated. I'm assuming their utmost priority is maintaining score integrity. Which leads me to believe that are countless security measures and efficiency-impairing protocol that need to be followed.

Just google LSAT misconduct or LSAT cheating. It's all over the place. If you have a 3.9, and a 175+ guarantees full rides at T14, but your PTs are barely 170, there are $200,000 reasons to cheat.

[Wieters]

It seems strange that core score processing/finalizing must be held up for the sake of a minority of administrations. Again, is this really a statistically significant percent such that things can't move forward until it's sorted.

Yeah, this, basically.

I'm under the impression that they don't need to receive any tests to figure the curve as its premade.

Regarding disqualifying questions, I think the domestic sample size would be large enough to figure out whether a question is so egregiously misplaced that it has to be removed.

Re. cheating, who cares? If someone wants to appeal then they can do that on their own time. Same with hand grading.

Only hiccup is percentages, but honestly just send me my percentage later. Treat it like an election where they announce results night-of and then shore up technicalities later. Honestly, what do percentages matter anyway? I'm sitting here waiting on my score to know what kind of schools I can apply to and so which ones I should visit and write 'Why X' for etc. because they're calculating my percentage or hand-scoring the test for some idiot who didn't erase properly?

4-5 weeks is absurd for a test that is literally all scantron.

[Skool]

I am certain they ship for processing in Pennsylvania. Processing at a local hub is just another junction where scores can be manipulated. I'm assuming their utmost priority is maintaining score integrity. Which leads me to believe that are countless security measures and efficiency-impairing protocol that need to be followed.

Just google LSAT misconduct or LSAT cheating. It's all over the place. If you have a 3.9, and a 175+ guarantees full rides at T14, but your PTs are barely 170, there are $200,000 reasons to cheat.

You're still assuming with out clear warrant that these investigations are necessarily impediments to getting everyone else their scores. I think it's a good point about facility security at a hub. Nevertheless, vote processing in the Western world seems to happen securely at discrete locations within 24 hours of release (similar to the point Wieters makes). I think it's possible to figure out how to process locally if someone is inclined. We're not transporting and securing nuclear launch codes here.

Also,

Just make sure your lack of perspective and analytically though doesn't show through in your law school applications. You're all like that drunken asshole who complains the bartender isn't getting your drink fast enough, when he has 12 orders ahead of you in a packed bar, is low on ice, the barback is out on a smoke break, and has 6 people who all want to split the bill evenly and pay with 6 different credit cards. Oh, right, he just ran out of Beefeater so he has to run to storage and get another bottle because the asshole before you just really needs his gin and tonic right now with Beefeater. Tanqueray is not ok.

And by the way, your analogy sucks. I have given LSAC at least half a months salary in terms of taking the LSAT twice, CRS, Applications, and study materials. In return, the service sucks and they don't care. When you ask them for a waiver their argument is essentially, "well, law school is expensive and our fees or comparatively small. If you can borrow for law school, we'd like you to find a way to pay us too." That's the core of my anger. I'm not a rich person, so losing a half months salary and getting a shitty service is a big deal to me. Bartenders are usually not that exploitative and I can always go to a competitor. There's just a big gap between the two entities and the resulting headaches. So much for your analysis, bruh.

Bad service at a bar reflects a shitty bar. The problem ends there. LSAC being shitty is the first ass raping on the way to multiple ass rapings that I can't do anything about. It's a systematic problem. Protests against LSAC and anger at their service is the beginning of a complaint against an entire system that is fucked up and bull shit.

[PeanutsNJam]

You're still assuming with out clear warrant that these investigations are necessarily impediments to getting everyone else their scores.

Assuming that extra work = impediment to score release is perfectly reasonable.

And by the way, your analogy sucks. I have given LSAC at least half a months salary in terms of taking the LSAT twice, CRS, Applications, and study materials. In return, the service sucks and they don't care. When you ask them for a waiver their argument is essentially, "well, law school is expensive and our fees or comparatively small. If you can borrow for law school, we'd like you to find a way to pay us too." That's the core of my anger. I'm not a rich person, so losing a half months salary and getting a shitty service is a big deal to me. Bartenders are usually not that exploitive and I can always go to a competitor. There's just a big gap between the two entities. So much for your analysis, bruh.

Because you're misappropriating the analogy. It's not about your return on investment. It's about your inability to see things from multiple perspectives combined with a self-centered mentality. These things are apparent in both the present case and the analogy, bruh.

[mike0331]

Lets make this simple. They have on multiple occasions released the score pre Christmas... they could do it again.

[cmac2210]

Eh. The bottom line is, LSAC sucks. Processing is not so hard that the offices can close for a week or so while applicants' lives hang in limbo. Maybe it's not as simple as scanning some paper and sending some emails, but it could be done faster and more efficiently than they do now (they've been administering these tests globally for years now, how come they never get faster at delivering results?). They're just a bunch of shiftless rent seeking bureaucrats. They could do better in terms of efficiency and pricing if they wanted to, but they won't.

So... yeah. I really, truly, from the bottom of my heart hope that they and their families have horrible Christmases. This might be the first time in my life I've begrudged someone Christmas with their families. They don't take my life seriously, so fuck em.

Well, when I took the test in Sept, it was in HK. This Dec, they administered in Shanghai, and in a few other SE Asian countries. They also administer in the Middle East, Eastern Europe, and Europe. How long do you think it takes to mail everything from those locations to Pennsylvania? A fair amount of time. Let's say they expedite it and get all that shit within the offices in 2 weeks. It should only take a few days to scantron and log everything, so let's say "score processing" takes a week. We're at 3 weeks now, assuming no bumps in the road and optimal efficiency.

You have people who request hand-scoring, and this is no small number. So you have a bunch of people who have to score a bunch of LSATs by hand. This will take another few days. Bump in the road.

You have cheating accusations and testing center complaints, and LSAC needs to resolve these. Investigations take at least a few days. Bump in the road.

Then you have a committee that needs to decide if all the questions were fair after looking at the aggregate statistics, and decide if questions need to be removed. This will take another few days. Bump in the road.

Employees get weekends off to go home and live their life. Bump in the road.

They no doubt have to field angry phone calls about why scores aren't out. Bump in the road.

[Insert other problems and things that need to be done that I don't know about.]

Bottom line: LSAC no doubt spends tremendous time and money into ensuring the integrity of the scores they release.

While some of these things can be done simultaneously, LSAC does not have an army. It also has to handle applications (which is probably a majority of their work load), CAS, CRS, LLM applications, and various other things.

Just make sure your lack of perspective and analytically thought don't show through in your law school applications. You're all like that drunken asshole who complains the bartender isn't getting your drink fast enough, when he has 12 orders ahead of you in a packed bar, is low on ice, the barback is out on a smoke break, and has 6 people who all want to split the bill evenly and pay with 6 different credit cards. Oh, right, he just ran out of Beefeater so he has to run to storage and get another bottle because the asshole before you just really needs his gin and tonic right now with Beefeater. Tanqueray is not ok.

So no, cmac, it is not just a button.

So you believe the process has yet to be completed, that's what your saying? They are off for the holidays as of now. So unless they are actually working its done except publishing. Unless you also believe they plan on working while they are closed, which is unlikely. So we are back to the button theory.

Also, stop sending your stuff back to the states from HK via the titanic and it takes less than 2 weeks.

[Wieters]

You're still assuming with out clear warrant that these investigations are necessarily impediments to getting everyone else their scores.

Assuming that extra work = impediment to score release is perfectly reasonable.

Everyone else is the key phrase here. How does someone being accused of cheating affect the vast majority of scores being released?

[Skool]

You're still assuming with out clear warrant that these investigations are necessarily impediments to getting everyone else their scores.

Assuming that extra work = impediment to score release is perfectly reasonable.

Extra work in a minority of cases =/= (necessarily) impediment to majority of score release. You have thus far unjustifiedly assumed this because you want to give LSAC the benefit of the doubt. Why? I don't see where genuine analysis requires it. Maybe you're just a good guy that way.

BTW, I see LSAC's perspective fine. But seeing LSAC's perspective doesn't mean that you don't set and demand high expectations. My objection to your analogy wasn't about anger in "return on investment" it's about the difference in stakes and why in the bartending case, I'm more willing to be sympathetic while in LSAC's case, I'm less inclined to be deferential. The stakes are higher, the options fewer, and the behavior more exploitative/rent seeking. In such a scenario, there's a high barrier in giving them the benefit of the doubt.

Does that make sense?

[GreenTee]

This argument is stupid. Obviously LSAC is not withholding our scores for their own entertainment. Just appreciate the fact that it takes a lot of time and effort to produce a perfect product like the LSAT. As people who have devoted this much of our lives to this test, we really shouldn't be begging them to cut corners. Whatever they're doing, it's probably necessary.

[Wieters]

This argument is stupid. Obviously LSAC is not withholding our scores for their own entertainment. Just appreciate the fact that it takes a lot of time and effort to produce a perfect product like the LSAT. As people who have devoted this much of our lives to this test, we really shouldn't be begging them to cut corners. Whatever they're doing, it's probably necessary.

Are you applying this cycle?

[Skool]

This argument is stupid. Obviously LSAC is not withholding our scores for their own entertainment. Just appreciate the fact that it takes a lot of time and effort to produce a perfect product like the LSAT. As people who have devoted this much of our lives to this test, we really shouldn't be begging them to cut corners. Whatever they're doing, it's probably necessary.

I don't think they're witholding for our entertainment either. Nor am I asking for corners to be cut. Respectfully, these are straw men.

The question is about expectations and incentives for delivering high quality service as opposed to just taking my money and getting me the scores whenever.

A key question is, how do you know what they're doing is necessary? Why do you make that assumption? Why does LSAC deserve the benefit of the doubt?

Maybe they do, maybe they don't. Why do folks make a judgment one way or the other.

[cmac2210]

This argument is stupid. Obviously LSAC is not withholding our scores for their own entertainment. Just appreciate the fact that it takes a lot of time and effort to produce a perfect product like the LSAT. As people who have devoted this much of our lives to this test, we really shouldn't be begging them to cut corners. Whatever they're doing, it's probably necessary.

I like this. If you are going to be mad at LSAC, be mad that the basically charge you 28 for them to combine you 6 pages of docs into a PDF file that they send to the law schools. That crap adds up.