Am I crazy to retake?

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BillsFan9907

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Am I crazy to retake?

Postby BillsFan9907 » Thu Apr 17, 2014 1:24 pm

I started "studying" for the lsat at the end of 2010 after graduating undergrad from Emory. It just wasn't working. I couldn't make any progress with the games. My performance IQ is not all that great. I even tried hypnosis but it didn't work. I started playing around with the LSATs again in 2011. I took a powerscore class but couldn't break 165. I gave the LSATs another shot in 2012 and was able to get 169 on a practice test. I still wasn't satisfied. I studied throughout 2013. I was hitting 173-177 on practice tests. I took 4 proctored exams at Manhattan LSAT! - scoring 171, 177, 173 and 177. Come test day in December I got a 169.

I've been offered full scholarships at WUSTL and USC. I have been accepted to NYU and Georgetown.

But I have decided to sit this cycle out and retake. I have a perfect undergrad GPA and a master's degree. But as you guys can guess, I am getting kind of old.

I have one last shot at the LSAT and I just don't know what I can do to push me over the edge. I mean, I took 4 freaking proctored exams.

Am I crazy to turn down my offers and retake?

Some questions:

1. Why do people who score high on practice tests screw up on the real thing?
2. What non-LSAT things must I do? I am ready to go way outside of the box like burning through my old Calculus book for hours on end to improve my focus. I am also thinking about memorizing tests to improve my memory skills.
3. Should I shell out the cash and take another class?
Last edited by BillsFan9907 on Wed Dec 24, 2014 12:26 am, edited 3 times in total.

20170322

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Re: Am I crazy to retake?

Postby 20170322 » Thu Apr 17, 2014 1:26 pm

Seoulless wrote:I started "studying" for the lsat at the end of 2008 after graduating undergrad. It just wasn't working. I couldn't make any progress with the games. My performance IQ is not all that great. I even tried hypnosis but it didn't work. I started playing around with the LSATs again in 2011. I took a powerscore class but couldn't break 165. I gave the LSATs another shot in 2012 and was able to get 169 on a practice test. I still wasn't satisfied. I studied throughout 2013. I was hitting 173-177 on practice tests. I took 4 proctored exams at Manhattan LSAT! - scoring 171, 177, 173 and 177. Come test day (June 2013) I scored a poor 167. I tried again in December and got a 169.

I've been offered full scholarships at WUSTL and USC. I have been accepted to NYU and Georgetown.

But I have decided to sit this cycle out and retake. I have a perfect undergrad GPA and a master's degree. But as you guys can guess, I am getting kind of old.

I have one last shot at the LSAT and I just don't know what I can do to push me over the edge. I mean, I took 4 freaking proctored exams.

Am I crazy to turn down my offers and retake?



No. In fact, it's probably a very prudent move.

jk148706

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Re: Am I crazy to retake?

Postby jk148706 » Thu Apr 17, 2014 1:29 pm

Seoulless wrote:I started "studying" for the lsat at the end of 2008 after graduating undergrad. It just wasn't working. I couldn't make any progress with the games. My performance IQ is not all that great. I even tried hypnosis but it didn't work. I started playing around with the LSATs again in 2011. I took a powerscore class but couldn't break 165. I gave the LSATs another shot in 2012 and was able to get 169 on a practice test. I still wasn't satisfied. I studied throughout 2013. I was hitting 173-177 on practice tests. I took 4 proctored exams at Manhattan LSAT! - scoring 171, 177, 173 and 177. Come test day (June 2013) I scored a poor 167. I tried again in December and got a 169.

I've been offered full scholarships at WUSTL and USC. I have been accepted to NYU and Georgetown.

But I have decided to sit this cycle out and retake. I have a perfect undergrad GPA and a master's degree. But as you guys can guess, I am getting kind of old.

I have one last shot at the LSAT and I just don't know what I can do to push me over the edge. I mean, I took 4 freaking proctored exams.

Am I crazy to turn down my offers and retake?


No not at all. A 4.0 gpa and u were PTing 173-177?? You would be shorting yourself not to retake one more time and possibly HYS or big $ at CCN.

AbhiJ

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Re: Am I crazy to retake?

Postby AbhiJ » Wed Apr 23, 2014 3:38 pm

Seoulless wrote:I started "studying" for the lsat at the end of 2008 after graduating undergrad. It just wasn't working. I couldn't make any progress with the games. My performance IQ is not all that great. I even tried hypnosis but it didn't work. I started playing around with the LSATs again in 2011. I took a powerscore class but couldn't break 165. I gave the LSATs another shot in 2012 and was able to get 169 on a practice test. I still wasn't satisfied. I studied throughout 2013. I was hitting 173-177 on practice tests. I took 4 proctored exams at Manhattan LSAT! - scoring 171, 177, 173 and 177. Come test day (June 2013) I scored a poor 167. I tried again in December and got a 169.

I've been offered full scholarships at WUSTL and USC. I have been accepted to NYU and Georgetown.

But I have decided to sit this cycle out and retake. I have a perfect undergrad GPA and a master's degree. But as you guys can guess, I am getting kind of old.

I have one last shot at the LSAT and I just don't know what I can do to push me over the edge. I mean, I took 4 freaking proctored exams.

Am I crazy to turn down my offers and retake?

Some questions:

1. Why do people who score high on practice tests screw up on the real thing?
2. What non-LSAT things must I do? I am ready to go way outside of the box like burning through my old Calculus book for hours on end to improve my focus. I am also thinking about memorizing tests to improve my memory skills.
3. Should I shell out the cash and take another class?


Do you want to waste 1 year prepping for LSAT or want to move on with your career. What Harvard Law can give you that NYU cannot ? The prestige is not worth 1 year of your life, calculate your lost earnings at your retirement age.

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WaltGrace83

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Re: Am I crazy to retake?

Postby WaltGrace83 » Wed Apr 23, 2014 3:42 pm

AbhiJ wrote:
Seoulless wrote:I started "studying" for the lsat at the end of 2008 after graduating undergrad. It just wasn't working. I couldn't make any progress with the games. My performance IQ is not all that great. I even tried hypnosis but it didn't work. I started playing around with the LSATs again in 2011. I took a powerscore class but couldn't break 165. I gave the LSATs another shot in 2012 and was able to get 169 on a practice test. I still wasn't satisfied. I studied throughout 2013. I was hitting 173-177 on practice tests. I took 4 proctored exams at Manhattan LSAT! - scoring 171, 177, 173 and 177. Come test day (June 2013) I scored a poor 167. I tried again in December and got a 169.

I've been offered full scholarships at WUSTL and USC. I have been accepted to NYU and Georgetown.

But I have decided to sit this cycle out and retake. I have a perfect undergrad GPA and a master's degree. But as you guys can guess, I am getting kind of old.

I have one last shot at the LSAT and I just don't know what I can do to push me over the edge. I mean, I took 4 freaking proctored exams.

Am I crazy to turn down my offers and retake?

Some questions:

1. Why do people who score high on practice tests screw up on the real thing?
2. What non-LSAT things must I do? I am ready to go way outside of the box like burning through my old Calculus book for hours on end to improve my focus. I am also thinking about memorizing tests to improve my memory skills.
3. Should I shell out the cash and take another class?


Do you want to waste 1 year prepping for LSAT or want to move on with your career. What Harvard Law can give you that NYU cannot ? The prestige is not worth 1 year of your life, calculate your lost earnings at your retirement age.



Ummmm..........scholarship? The advice itself is not terrible. The premise that the advice stems from is objectively terrible. GETTING IN to NYU isn't sufficient - GETTING SCHOLARSHIP though is absolutely worth the retake.

Do you not know what 200k+ is?

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francesfarmer

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Re: Am I crazy to retake?

Postby francesfarmer » Wed Apr 23, 2014 3:47 pm

AbhiJ wrote:
Seoulless wrote:I started "studying" for the lsat at the end of 2008 after graduating undergrad. It just wasn't working. I couldn't make any progress with the games. My performance IQ is not all that great. I even tried hypnosis but it didn't work. I started playing around with the LSATs again in 2011. I took a powerscore class but couldn't break 165. I gave the LSATs another shot in 2012 and was able to get 169 on a practice test. I still wasn't satisfied. I studied throughout 2013. I was hitting 173-177 on practice tests. I took 4 proctored exams at Manhattan LSAT! - scoring 171, 177, 173 and 177. Come test day (June 2013) I scored a poor 167. I tried again in December and got a 169.

I've been offered full scholarships at WUSTL and USC. I have been accepted to NYU and Georgetown.

But I have decided to sit this cycle out and retake. I have a perfect undergrad GPA and a master's degree. But as you guys can guess, I am getting kind of old.

I have one last shot at the LSAT and I just don't know what I can do to push me over the edge. I mean, I took 4 freaking proctored exams.

Am I crazy to turn down my offers and retake?

Some questions:

1. Why do people who score high on practice tests screw up on the real thing?
2. What non-LSAT things must I do? I am ready to go way outside of the box like burning through my old Calculus book for hours on end to improve my focus. I am also thinking about memorizing tests to improve my memory skills.
3. Should I shell out the cash and take another class?


Do you want to waste 1 year prepping for LSAT or want to move on with your career. What Harvard Law can give you that NYU cannot ? The prestige is not worth 1 year of your life, calculate your lost earnings at your retirement age.

Horrible advice.

Retake the LSAT. You don't want to wonder "what if" for the rest of your life. NYU and Georgetown will let you in again.

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PDaddy

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Re: Am I crazy to retake?

Postby PDaddy » Wed Apr 23, 2014 3:51 pm

Retaking a 169 isn't crazy, especially with your practice scores and 4.0 GPA. Crazy would be retaking a 173 or better.

For you, one can argue either way.

Nomo

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Re: Am I crazy to retake?

Postby Nomo » Wed Apr 23, 2014 4:05 pm

Retaking a 169 isn't crazy at all if you think you can do 4 points better. Those 4 points could open so many doors.

AbhiJ

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Re: Am I crazy to retake?

Postby AbhiJ » Thu Apr 24, 2014 9:46 am

WaltGrace83 wrote:
AbhiJ wrote:
Seoulless wrote:I started "studying" for the lsat at the end of 2008 after graduating undergrad. It just wasn't working. I couldn't make any progress with the games. My performance IQ is not all that great. I even tried hypnosis but it didn't work. I started playing around with the LSATs again in 2011. I took a powerscore class but couldn't break 165. I gave the LSATs another shot in 2012 and was able to get 169 on a practice test. I still wasn't satisfied. I studied throughout 2013. I was hitting 173-177 on practice tests. I took 4 proctored exams at Manhattan LSAT! - scoring 171, 177, 173 and 177. Come test day (June 2013) I scored a poor 167. I tried again in December and got a 169.

I've been offered full scholarships at WUSTL and USC. I have been accepted to NYU and Georgetown.

But I have decided to sit this cycle out and retake. I have a perfect undergrad GPA and a master's degree. But as you guys can guess, I am getting kind of old.

I have one last shot at the LSAT and I just don't know what I can do to push me over the edge. I mean, I took 4 freaking proctored exams.

Am I crazy to turn down my offers and retake?

Some questions:

1. Why do people who score high on practice tests screw up on the real thing?
2. What non-LSAT things must I do? I am ready to go way outside of the box like burning through my old Calculus book for hours on end to improve my focus. I am also thinking about memorizing tests to improve my memory skills.
3. Should I shell out the cash and take another class?


Do you want to waste 1 year prepping for LSAT or want to move on with your career. What Harvard Law can give you that NYU cannot ? The prestige is not worth 1 year of your life, calculate your lost earnings at your retirement age.



Ummmm..........scholarship? The advice itself is not terrible. The premise that the advice stems from is objectively terrible. GETTING IN to NYU isn't sufficient - GETTING SCHOLARSHIP though is absolutely worth the retake.

Do you not know what 200k+ is?


You are making lot of assumptions. You are assuming that
a.) retake will yield 173-177.
b.) NYU will offer him scholarship next year, that too 200k.

The thing see missing is the rationale for retake: is it scholarship money or an admit to Harvard ? What are his career goals ?
Without these answers we can all give our subjective opinion.

jk148706

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Re: Am I crazy to retake?

Postby jk148706 » Thu Apr 24, 2014 9:54 am

AbhiJ wrote:
Seoulless wrote:I started "studying" for the lsat at the end of 2008 after graduating undergrad. It just wasn't working. I couldn't make any progress with the games. My performance IQ is not all that great. I even tried hypnosis but it didn't work. I started playing around with the LSATs again in 2011. I took a powerscore class but couldn't break 165. I gave the LSATs another shot in 2012 and was able to get 169 on a practice test. I still wasn't satisfied. I studied throughout 2013. I was hitting 173-177 on practice tests. I took 4 proctored exams at Manhattan LSAT! - scoring 171, 177, 173 and 177. Come test day (June 2013) I scored a poor 167. I tried again in December and got a 169.

I've been offered full scholarships at WUSTL and USC. I have been accepted to NYU and Georgetown.

But I have decided to sit this cycle out and retake. I have a perfect undergrad GPA and a master's degree. But as you guys can guess, I am getting kind of old.

I have one last shot at the LSAT and I just don't know what I can do to push me over the edge. I mean, I took 4 freaking proctored exams.

Am I crazy to turn down my offers and retake?

Some questions:

1. Why do people who score high on practice tests screw up on the real thing?
2. What non-LSAT things must I do? I am ready to go way outside of the box like burning through my old Calculus book for hours on end to improve my focus. I am also thinking about memorizing tests to improve my memory skills.
3. Should I shell out the cash and take another class?


Do you want to waste 1 year prepping for LSAT or want to move on with your career. What Harvard Law can give you that NYU cannot ? The prestige is not worth 1 year of your life, calculate your lost earnings at your retirement age.


Man that's some bad advice

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WaltGrace83

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Re: Am I crazy to retake?

Postby WaltGrace83 » Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:05 am

AbhiJ wrote:
You are making lot of assumptions. You are assuming that
a.) retake will yield 173-177.
b.) NYU will offer him scholarship next year, that too 200k.

The thing see missing is the rationale for retake: is it scholarship money or an admit to Harvard ? What are his career goals ?
Without these answers we can all give our subjective opinion.


Your right. I AM assuming that. However, the opportunity is HUGE. Just imagine what a few more points could do. I mean, sure, anybody in any situation can get rejected or not offered scholarship money. However, your argument looks something like this:

You may not get more money or you may not get a Harvard acceptance, therefore you shouldn't try. That is absolutely absurd. With your rationale, I have no reason to study for the LSAT. I mean, I may not get into any school, right? I may not get scholarship, right? I might as well just take it blind and not "waste the year of my life."

It's a dumb argument and it's a dumb mindset.

EDIT: and by the way, studying for the LSAT - unless you have a 180 of course - is NOT wasted time. What do most mortals need to get the best job? They need to go to a good school. What does it take to get into a good school? A great LSAT score.

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Re: Am I crazy to retake?

Postby lawschool2014hopeful » Thu Apr 24, 2014 3:05 pm

Lol at the TLS mindset calling people not suggesting retake terrible advice.

I notice some of the people who are given advice havent even taken the test yet.

Here is how you should look at your situation OP

1) Be completely honest with yourself, how likely is it that you will score a 175~ on test day. You took the test twice already, so you only have 1 shot in next year I assume, so that would add additional pressure for you to perform, whether that hinders or improves your performance is only something you could know.

If you score 175~, with a 4.0~, you should be competitive for full ride offers somewhere in the t-10, probably CCN, which is worth approximately 160k. Going sticker a year early means you are earning 100k early, (160k - taxes from NYC). So if you think you can score 175~, it is absolutely prudent to retake, but lets imagine other scenarios.

You increase your score by 2pts, demonstrated by past history. You will probably get a maximum of 60k from CCN over the 3 years. Is that worth more than 100k of foregone earnings? Maybe, if your current cost of living is significantly lower than what it will be in NYC, and you can partake in some sort of part-time job.

Another factor you have to consider is that, what are you going to do for the upcoming year if you dont go to school? Like said previously, if you can secure employment and study for the LSAT, I think is a toss up whether you should retake or not, depending on your confidence of score increase and $$$ at your job.

If you know you cant find any meaningful employment and you are just going to waste a year, knowing that you have maximized your potential, you should just go.

I mean you can always commit to NYU, retake in June, and negotiate, this way you lose nothing. If your score dont increase significantly, go NYU, if it does, you should get $$$, if not, reapply.

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francesfarmer

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Re: Am I crazy to retake?

Postby francesfarmer » Thu Apr 24, 2014 3:10 pm

As someone who has taken the test (and retaken the test!), you're potentially leaving a ton of points on the table. I think you should retake. This is not about rushing into a career and earning an extra $100k as a biglaw associate. This is not about opportunity cost. This is about maximizing your admissions potential. You are potentially leaving big money and/or HYS on the table. Are you OK with knowing you did that for the rest of your life?

I am 25. I have applied to law school twice. I retook a 170, got a 172, was admitted to most of the T-14 with $, and if I weren't a splitter going to CLS this fall, I would be sitting out and retaking again.

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furrrman

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Re: Am I crazy to retake?

Postby furrrman » Thu Apr 24, 2014 3:36 pm

I'd agree that you should retake. I'd maim and kill for your GPA.

On your questions:

1. I don't know. How many PT's (proctored and non-proctored) did you take? Did you always fully mimic test conditions (e.g. time yourself strictly, use scantrons to bubble in answers?) Were you especially nervous on test day? Did you get enough sleep? Wake up early 2-3 days prior to get your body adjusted to the early start? Also given your PT scores, you obviously know the material. Did you find yourself running out of time on test day, whereas on PTs you got through sections with time leftover? Also, try PTing in various conditions (busy coffee shops, quiet libraries) so your ready for any distractions that may occur on test day.

2. I've read a little about people doing non-lsat things to prep, but I'm honestly not sure its helpful. I would say do something if it gives you confidence. I tried to eat a lot of "brain foods" while prepping (blueberries, dark chocolate, etc.) that probably didn't have much effect on my performance, but psychologically I might have benefited because I felt like I was being proactive (in any case it didn't hurt). But from what you mentioned, I'm not sure if doing math problems or just memorizing tests would be helpful. I would say if you're looking to focus drill more and pt more. Maybe in your free time read difficult literature.

3. No! While I think I benefited from my lsat class no way I would take it a second time. Once you learn the basics (which given your scores on PTs, you obviously do) its really up to you to get yourself ready for gameday. Take lots of PTs and try to get your rhythm down.

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Re: Am I crazy to retake?

Postby AbhiJ » Fri Apr 25, 2014 2:18 am

WaltGrace83 wrote:
AbhiJ wrote:
You are making lot of assumptions. You are assuming that
a.) retake will yield 173-177.
b.) NYU will offer him scholarship next year, that too 200k.

The thing see missing is the rationale for retake: is it scholarship money or an admit to Harvard ? What are his career goals ?
Without these answers we can all give our subjective opinion.


Your right. I AM assuming that. However, the opportunity is HUGE. Just imagine what a few more points could do. I mean, sure, anybody in any situation can get rejected or not offered scholarship money. However, your argument looks something like this:

You may not get more money or you may not get a Harvard acceptance, therefore you shouldn't try. That is absolutely absurd. With your rationale, I have no reason to study for the LSAT. I mean, I may not get into any school, right? I may not get scholarship, right? I might as well just take it blind and not "waste the year of my life."

It's a dumb argument and it's a dumb mindset.

EDIT: and by the way, studying for the LSAT - unless you have a 180 of course - is NOT wasted time. What do most mortals need to get the best job? They need to go to a good school. What does it take to get into a good school? A great LSAT score.


You are treating the situation like a LR problem. Unfortunately life issues doesn't come in neat bundles. How old are you ? I bet you are under 25. Your situation is different from his as
- He already has an Admit from NYU and full scholarship from other good schools. Are you in a similar situation ? If no how can you apply his advice to your situation.
- He is six years out of undergrad and by his own admission getting old.
- He has taken the test 4 times and possibly maxed out.
Going to the a good school does not guarantee a good job. You need to be in top 25% where everyone is trying to be there. The older you join grad school the more difficult it would be to compete with 23 year old smart chaps.
Last but most important factor, he has not mentioned his goals. You are assuming his goals are same as yours.
Goals are the most important thing, in absence of which all arguments are meaningless/

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Re: Am I crazy to retake?

Postby jk148706 » Fri Apr 25, 2014 9:31 am

lawschool2014hopeful wrote:Lol at the TLS mindset calling people not suggesting retake terrible advice.


What?

The "terrible advice" is implying OP would be "wasting a year of her/his life" by studying and retaking. I'm sorry, but that's bs. OP said he/she was hitting high 170s on PTs and has an insane gpa. A retake could save OP tens of thousands of dollars, possibly $100k+.

A retake is not for everyone, and it's not necessarily bad advice to suggest a retake is unwarranted in this case. What is terrible advice is saying do not retake bc you will be wasting your life, skipping a year of $160k in earnings. That is bologna. Never mind the fact that OP may not want/get big law, or that retaking could save him/her more money, or that that year can be spent doing something just as meaningful as law school/big law (gasp! :shock: )

Even if OP does WORSE on a retake, he/she will likely benefit from applying next cycle. Applicants continue to drop, and that is putting OP in a propitious position when it comes to applying.

So, yes, there's some terrible advice here

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WaltGrace83

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Re: Am I crazy to retake?

Postby WaltGrace83 » Fri Apr 25, 2014 5:36 pm

AbhiJ wrote:
You are treating the situation like a LR problem. Unfortunately life issues doesn't come in neat bundles. How old are you ? I bet you are under 25. Your situation is different from his as
- He already has an Admit from NYU and full scholarship from other good schools. Are you in a similar situation ? If no how can you apply his advice to your situation.
- He is six years out of undergrad and by his own admission getting old.
- He has taken the test 4 times and possibly maxed out.
Going to the a good school does not guarantee a good job. You need to be in top 25% where everyone is trying to be there. The older you join grad school the more difficult it would be to compete with 23 year old smart chaps.
Last but most important factor, he has not mentioned his goals. You are assuming his goals are same as yours.
Goals are the most important thing, in absence of which all arguments are meaningless/


First of all, he was ASKING for advice.

(1) Are you in a similar situation? Okay. Then maybe I could say the same to you about giving advice.
(2) Yet he came on here to ask for advice. If he knew exactly what to do he would have just done it.
(3) Unless I am mistaken, he has not. He has taken 4 proctored exams under Manhattan. That is not a real test administration. He has taken the test twice. Also, if he has maxed out why did he score a few 177s on a PT and then a 169 on the real thing.
(4) I never said it guaranteed it. I said it was necessary for most people.
(5) You are also assuming something about his goals.

I don't wish to argue on the internet. Yet nothing you said made your advice any better than mine.

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TLSanders

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Re: Am I crazy to retake?

Postby TLSanders » Sat Apr 26, 2014 4:29 pm

The answer that most in this thread seem to be answering is "is it worth sitting out a year to do better on the LSAT?"

I don't think, though, that that's the real question.

The important question is whether or not you have realistic reason to believe that you're going to be able to improve your LSAT score. From your brief description here, it appears that you've been making various but serious efforts to improve your LSAT score for six years. You've walked into two administered tests feeling prepared and having consistently scored well on proctored practice tests, only to score lower on test day.

Will your third score be higher? I don't know. But, from what you've offered here, there's little reason to expect that it will. If after all this time you have no idea what you're doing differently on test day and haven't been able to figure it out, it seems very unlikely that another round of practice is going to change it.

If you do decide to roll the dice and try again, I'd suggest that you shift your efforts away from digging deeper into the academics and toward stress management. That's not to say that you won't need to continue to practice your LSAT skills and keep them fresh, but the only apparent difference between your excellent practice test performances and your lower test day performances is your knowledge that it counts.

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Re: Am I crazy to retake?

Postby jk148706 » Sat Apr 26, 2014 10:44 pm

TLSanders wrote:The answer that most in this thread seem to be answering is "is it worth sitting out a year to do better on the LSAT?"


No it's not. Even if OP does worse on the lsat, he/she will never wonder 'what if.' Also, even if OP does worse, he/she will likely benefit next cycle from a drop in applicants. Very little to lose a lot to gain.

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Re: Am I crazy to retake?

Postby TLSanders » Sun Apr 27, 2014 1:09 am

jk148706 wrote:
TLSanders wrote:The answer that most in this thread seem to be answering is "is it worth sitting out a year to do better on the LSAT?"


No it's not. Even if OP does worse on the lsat, he/she will never wonder 'what if.' Also, even if OP does worse, he/she will likely benefit next cycle from a drop in applicants. Very little to lose a lot to gain.


Maybe I missed a prior thread, but is there a reason that you're assuming there will be a further drop in applicants next cycle? Do you think that the uptick in February test takers was an anomaly?

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Re: Am I crazy to retake?

Postby jk148706 » Sun Apr 27, 2014 1:45 am

TLSanders wrote:
jk148706 wrote:
TLSanders wrote:The answer that most in this thread seem to be answering is "is it worth sitting out a year to do better on the LSAT?"


No it's not. Even if OP does worse on the lsat, he/she will never wonder 'what if.' Also, even if OP does worse, he/she will likely benefit next cycle from a drop in applicants. Very little to lose a lot to gain.


Maybe I missed a prior thread, but is there a reason that you're assuming there will be a further drop in applicants next cycle? Do you think that the uptick in February test takers was an anomaly?



Uh, all available data show applicant numbers are down. http://www.lsac.org/lsacresources/data/ ... ear-volume

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TLSanders

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Re: Am I crazy to retake?

Postby TLSanders » Sun Apr 27, 2014 1:54 am

jk148706 wrote:
TLSanders wrote:
jk148706 wrote:
TLSanders wrote:The answer that most in this thread seem to be answering is "is it worth sitting out a year to do better on the LSAT?"


No it's not. Even if OP does worse on the lsat, he/she will never wonder 'what if.' Also, even if OP does worse, he/she will likely benefit next cycle from a drop in applicants. Very little to lose a lot to gain.


Maybe I missed a prior thread, but is there a reason that you're assuming there will be a further drop in applicants next cycle? Do you think that the uptick in February test takers was an anomaly?



Uh, all available data show applicant numbers are down. http://www.lsac.org/lsacresources/data/ ... ear-volume


Right...this year. And last. And in a trend over the past few years. What I'm getting at is whether you have some data that indicates that trend will continue, and whether you think that the increase in LSAT test takers in February is just a random blip rather than a predictor. I'm not disagreeing with you, just curious as to what informs your assumptions about the next cycle.

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Re: Am I crazy to retake?

Postby jk148706 » Sun Apr 27, 2014 1:58 am

For Feb lasts were up 1%. For the cycle lsats administered are down more than 6%.

http://www.lsac.org/lsacresources/data/ ... ministered

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TLSanders

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Re: Am I crazy to retake?

Postby TLSanders » Sun Apr 27, 2014 2:17 am

jk148706 wrote:For Feb lasts were up 1%. For the cycle lsats administered are down more than 6%.

http://www.lsac.org/lsacresources/data/ ... ministered


Yeah, I've seen all the same data. But, we're just beginning to see testing data for the next application cycle. I thought perhaps you had some more up-to-date information that you were basing the prediction on. Looks like we're looking at the same numbers.

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Jeffort

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Re: Am I crazy to retake?

Postby Jeffort » Sun Apr 27, 2014 7:18 am

I think assuming that the same application profiles will necessarily get the same quality of admissions results next cycle that people have been getting so for this cycle with their stats is a very risky assumption to bank on. I think it's an especially dangerous assumption to count on when balancing the pros/cons, possible risks/sacrifices vs reasonably likely possible scenarios/outcomes from taking risk with the wait another cycle route to try to further maximize results in OPs specific situation. The fact that many people this cycle are outperforming their numbers compared to previous cycles doesn't indicate a new trend since it's a new sudden turn of events in admissions results. Assuming the unusual shift in results from numerical profiles seen this year is going to be the norm and continue to shift in that direction next cycle would be foolish. If the students that outperformed their numbers this cycle end up low in the class after first round of finals with fall class grades, I'd guess that ad comms are going to take that data into account next cycle when deciding whether to prioritize medians or class sizes.

Turning down those current admissions offers for the chance of getting as close to the best possible top of the top hardest to get rarely obtained admissions offers is a risky roll of the dice for sure. Saying there is no downside to postponing a cycle in OPs current situation is narrow minded and ignores many important big picture real life issues that are very relevant to his situation. OPs big picture full situation must be weighed against the narrow "use all retakes and all the time necessary and every 'mulligan' possible way you can no matter what or long it takes to try to get the coveted by all but granted to few admissions near dream perfect results from tip top school with full or near full ride dream package' is priority #1 and nothing else matters point of view.

TLSanders brings up very valid real world issues OP needs to seriously consider when making a decision about this since it's literally a 'bird in the hand' vs. 'bird in the bush' situation with admission results already in hand that are tough to beat.

The chances of improving LSAT skills enough to insure a significantly higher score than 169 given prep history are not great. The difference between high 160s and 173+ (99th%) performance skills/ability level is ENORMOUS even though by the raw points they look so close. There are many very real reasons why only 1% of test takers are ever able to hit 173+ and that tons of test takers dead set on hitting 170+ with a do or die mindset end up plateauing in the mid/high 160s or right at 170 no matter how long they keep prepping, how many different ways they try to do things by trying out a different prep sources, different 'tricks' and 'strategies', different timing methods, you name it, the list goes on.

The longer someone has been prepping and volume of questions/tests they've burnt through, especially when already multiple times over long periods of time, volume of timed PTs takes to burn in habits, the harder it is to change approach, paradigm view/main core of processes for solving questions, false conceptions about trends/facts/patterns/certain logic things/etc. that are preventing further significant improvement on a consistent basis. A couple of outlier PT scores are worthless for purposes of somewhat accurately evaluating/predicting true test day performance potential.

Whatever OP decides to do, whether it will be worth it to take the risk of waiting a year in hopes of hitting 174+ depends on a lot of factors out of his control. There are clear risks and potentially costly sacrifices if OP takes the risk to wait a year but doesn't succeed at achieving a higher LSAT score that generates the same or better admissions results next cycle. Making the 'all other things will be equal/the same as they are now' assumption needed to support the argument that OP has nothing to lose by waiting a year and re-taking even if doesn't hit a higher LSAT score and generate better offers than he has now is flawed. Things might be, but they might not, plus opportunity costs and changes in circumstances of life and the world that could happen are enough to undermine the assumption and kill the idea that there is no risk/nothing to lose.

If the situation was somebody recently out of or just graduating from UG that has plenty of free/available time (meaning many months of full blown hard core LSAT prep 174+ do or die routine like the full routine before that lead to 169, but plus even more effort on seriously improving underlying skills/processes/methods/approaches instead of just getting better at doing POE under timed conditions with same main methods as before!) to dedicate to putting in everything possible to max out score with best quality prep methods/review/etc. and had only prepped for under a year and not given it his/her all both those times to get the two achieved scores, then re-take and postpone a cycle would totally make sense and be much a much less risky decision.

Anyway, there is no right answer to the situation, it's a matter of weighing risks/possible rewards vs. real costs and possible additional costs if plan doesn't pay off, probability of the plan yielding substantially better results, OPs life priorities with his individual life situation and LS/legal career goals.

Like TLSanders said, the more important consideration for OPs specific situation is the likelihood of being able to somehow significantly improve LSAT approach and skills to a much higher level than several years of prep efforts built them up to. Perhaps he can, but are the risk and costs involved in 'knowing you gave it every chance by using all your mulligans' if it doesn't work out really worth all the sacrifices and potential risks?

With the last few years of declines and no clear signal we're at the end of declines/indication of future increase or not, plus conflicting priorities of maintaining medians vs filling more seats to maximize revenue, LS's are very much in a state of flux trying each year to figure out how best to adjust their admissions decision making priorities and criteria for that year by making adjustments each year based on evolving data and changing predictions each year since everything is pretty much in completely uncharted territory.

Schools are playing things by ear each year with fresh data from previous years admitted classes results/grades of their performance compared to LSAT/GPA for informing ongoing admissions policies/decisions due to the uncertainty about what the next applicant pool will be like, what types of classes they are going to end up with at the end of this cycle in the Fall when classes begin, and how the students with different profiles/that outperformed their numbers ended up performing compared to their classmates in the T1 schools. It would be foolish to ignore the fact that each cycle the adcomms will be looking at the data about how the people with lower numbers than usual they let in to fill seats the prior few years due to drop in applicants ranked in their classes compared to admits with better numbers on 1L grades and are factoring that stuff into the ongoing reshaping of policies due to shifting pool qualities every year.

Admissions standards at top schools might get lowered a little bit more again next year, maybe they won't. It would be foolish not to weigh that uncertainty into the risk/reward calculation/evaluation.



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