The Official September 2014 Study Group

some1uknown
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Re: The Official September 2014 Study Group

Postby some1uknown » Mon Jul 14, 2014 5:08 pm

Comstock wrote:I would mark this up as a "pretty fucking TERRIBLE" day category. Literally my worst day of LSAT prep in history.

Took PT 47, scored a 157. Haven't been that low since early may and it was just…bad. Like three points above my diagnostic bad.
Went:
-8 LR (Haven't been this bad in a loooong time.)
-7 RC (terrible, normally am consistently -3/-4 and at most -5)
-11 LG (my worst in a long time after doing so well before on my past two PTs. The games weren't even hard. Literally in two games I just didn't read a rule, and tried to answer all the questions without that rule. I did that all for the 3rd game (Struggling through it thinking WHAT THE FUCK is wrong this this game), then did the same on the lsat game until I realized what was wrong, had to erase it all, scrambled, panicked, etc. Just bad. So stupid.)
-3 LR (…yay? At least this kept me above my diagnostic score :cry: )

To say the least, I was sufficiently rattled after this exam. To see a score that low after doing so well for so long was hard. So I wallowed around in sadness for 30 minutes before deciding I didn't want to feel like shit the rest of the day so I'll go home (I was at the library) have lunch and do another test since I have the time and I was hoping to chalk this one up to just one bad test.

So then…
Took PT 48, scored 160, way below the average of my 167-168. 100% Still sufficiently rattled.

Went
-5 LR
-10 RC (about as bad as my diagnostic, or worse, just ouch)
-3 LG (So many dumb mistakes)
-5 LR

Yeah, just a terrible day overall.
I'm going to refrain from my urges to do another PT today and choose instead to watch House on Netflix and wallow in my own misery until tomorrow where I'll get back in the game. Maybe go for a run or something too.

My hope is that one day when people come here and underperform I can point them to this post and say "look how bad I did, now I'm back at and/or above my average!". The alternative is that I'm cursed and/or dumb and will never regain my form, meaning this would be a really uninspiring LSAT story.

Sigh.. :|

Don't beat yourself up too hard. Take a breather and then come back to it tomorrow reviewing everything.

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sfoglia
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Re: The Official September 2014 Study Group

Postby sfoglia » Mon Jul 14, 2014 5:50 pm

Comstock wrote:I would mark this up as a "pretty fucking TERRIBLE" day category. Literally my worst day of LSAT prep in history.

Took PT 47, scored a 157. Haven't been that low since early may and it was just…bad. Like three points above my diagnostic bad.
Went:
-8 LR (Haven't been this bad in a loooong time.)
-7 RC (terrible, normally am consistently -3/-4 and at most -5)
-11 LG (my worst in a long time after doing so well before on my past two PTs. The games weren't even hard. Literally in two games I just didn't read a rule, and tried to answer all the questions without that rule. I did that all for the 3rd game (Struggling through it thinking WHAT THE FUCK is wrong this this game), then did the same on the lsat game until I realized what was wrong, had to erase it all, scrambled, panicked, etc. Just bad. So stupid.)
-3 LR (…yay? At least this kept me above my diagnostic score :cry: )

To say the least, I was sufficiently rattled after this exam. To see a score that low after doing so well for so long was hard. So I wallowed around in sadness for 30 minutes before deciding I didn't want to feel like shit the rest of the day so I'll go home (I was at the library) have lunch and do another test since I have the time and I was hoping to chalk this one up to just one bad test.

So then…
Took PT 48, scored 160, way below the average of my 167-168. 100% Still sufficiently rattled.

Went
-5 LR
-10 RC (about as bad as my diagnostic, or worse, just ouch)
-3 LG (So many dumb mistakes)
-5 LR

Yeah, just a terrible day overall.
I'm going to refrain from my urges to do another PT today and choose instead to watch House on Netflix and wallow in my own misery until tomorrow where I'll get back in the game. Maybe go for a run or something too.

My hope is that one day when people come here and underperform I can point them to this post and say "look how bad I did, now I'm back at and/or above my average!". The alternative is that I'm cursed and/or dumb and will never regain my form, meaning this would be a really uninspiring LSAT story.

Sigh.. :|


Don't panic. I had that exact same experience two weekends ago. I scored two points below my diagnostic, and then retook the test a day later hoping it was a fluke, and scored two points lower than that. But, it ended up being very productive in that I realized that my study methods for LG were just not working. Decided to move on to LR, and I saw gain on my last PT. I've done a number of LR sections in the past few days with the same results (-2, -3 max). I was -7 and -9 on the LRs of those low-score PTs, for reference.

Anyway, I say this because I just want to remind you that a poor score provides the best opportunity for learning. These two PTs are not a reflection of your capabilities, but a study in worst case scenario. Now you'll know exactly how to prevent that from happening again. Better now than later, right?

You will get back to your average. And then you will exceed it. Harness this experience as motivation, not discouragement.

And, I hope you feel better. House always makes me feel better.

Feel free to PM if you think I can be of help.

170plusordie
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Re: The Official September 2014 Study Group

Postby 170plusordie » Mon Jul 14, 2014 6:26 pm

Comstock wrote:I would mark this up as a "pretty fucking TERRIBLE" day category. Literally my worst day of LSAT prep in history.

Took PT 47, scored a 157. Haven't been that low since early may and it was just…bad. Like three points above my diagnostic bad.
Went:
-8 LR (Haven't been this bad in a loooong time.)
-7 RC (terrible, normally am consistently -3/-4 and at most -5)
-11 LG (my worst in a long time after doing so well before on my past two PTs. The games weren't even hard. Literally in two games I just didn't read a rule, and tried to answer all the questions without that rule. I did that all for the 3rd game (Struggling through it thinking WHAT THE FUCK is wrong this this game), then did the same on the lsat game until I realized what was wrong, had to erase it all, scrambled, panicked, etc. Just bad. So stupid.)
-3 LR (…yay? At least this kept me above my diagnostic score :cry: )

To say the least, I was sufficiently rattled after this exam. To see a score that low after doing so well for so long was hard. So I wallowed around in sadness for 30 minutes before deciding I didn't want to feel like shit the rest of the day so I'll go home (I was at the library) have lunch and do another test since I have the time and I was hoping to chalk this one up to just one bad test.

So then…
Took PT 48, scored 160, way below the average of my 167-168. 100% Still sufficiently rattled.

Went
-5 LR
-10 RC (about as bad as my diagnostic, or worse, just ouch)
-3 LG (So many dumb mistakes)
-5 LR

Yeah, just a terrible day overall.
I'm going to refrain from my urges to do another PT today and choose instead to watch House on Netflix and wallow in my own misery until tomorrow where I'll get back in the game. Maybe go for a run or something too.

My hope is that one day when people come here and underperform I can point them to this post and say "look how bad I did, now I'm back at and/or above my average!". The alternative is that I'm cursed and/or dumb and will never regain my form, meaning this would be a really uninspiring LSAT story.

Sigh.. :|


went through this experience this past weekend.

Took a pt in the 60s and scored 164. Took it again today and scored 164 again, way below my average of 167-172. Feels bad man.

My retake was the same exact score too. I am reviewing in detail. Hope next week goes better for me. I'll review this in a lot of detail to make sure this doesn't occur again. sigh

danmcc413
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Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2014 11:44 am

Re: The Official September 2014 Study Group

Postby danmcc413 » Mon Jul 14, 2014 8:08 pm

Really happy right now. I've been down on myself for not studying as hard as I should be lately, but I just took PT 38, my 4th PT and got a 175! My previous high was a 170 so this is pretty exciting. My breakdown was:

-3 LR
-4 LG
-0 RC
-0 LR

Everyone just keep confident even if you've been struggling to stay motivated! Confidence, to me, is one of the most important parts. Just wanted to share good news with you all and hope to hear similar things from all of you with you studies

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Comstock
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Re: The Official September 2014 Study Group

Postby Comstock » Mon Jul 14, 2014 8:58 pm

sfoglia wrote:
Comstock wrote:I would mark this up as a "pretty fucking TERRIBLE" day category. Literally my worst day of LSAT prep in history.

Took PT 47, scored a 157. Haven't been that low since early may and it was just…bad. Like three points above my diagnostic bad.
Went:
-8 LR (Haven't been this bad in a loooong time.)
-7 RC (terrible, normally am consistently -3/-4 and at most -5)
-11 LG (my worst in a long time after doing so well before on my past two PTs. The games weren't even hard. Literally in two games I just didn't read a rule, and tried to answer all the questions without that rule. I did that all for the 3rd game (Struggling through it thinking WHAT THE FUCK is wrong this this game), then did the same on the lsat game until I realized what was wrong, had to erase it all, scrambled, panicked, etc. Just bad. So stupid.)
-3 LR (…yay? At least this kept me above my diagnostic score :cry: )

To say the least, I was sufficiently rattled after this exam. To see a score that low after doing so well for so long was hard. So I wallowed around in sadness for 30 minutes before deciding I didn't want to feel like shit the rest of the day so I'll go home (I was at the library) have lunch and do another test since I have the time and I was hoping to chalk this one up to just one bad test.

So then…
Took PT 48, scored 160, way below the average of my 167-168. 100% Still sufficiently rattled.

Went
-5 LR
-10 RC (about as bad as my diagnostic, or worse, just ouch)
-3 LG (So many dumb mistakes)
-5 LR

Yeah, just a terrible day overall.
I'm going to refrain from my urges to do another PT today and choose instead to watch House on Netflix and wallow in my own misery until tomorrow where I'll get back in the game. Maybe go for a run or something too.

My hope is that one day when people come here and underperform I can point them to this post and say "look how bad I did, now I'm back at and/or above my average!". The alternative is that I'm cursed and/or dumb and will never regain my form, meaning this would be a really uninspiring LSAT story.

Sigh.. :|


Don't panic. I had that exact same experience two weekends ago. I scored two points below my diagnostic, and then retook the test a day later hoping it was a fluke, and scored two points lower than that. But, it ended up being very productive in that I realized that my study methods for LG were just not working. Decided to move on to LR, and I saw gain on my last PT. I've done a number of LR sections in the past few days with the same results (-2, -3 max). I was -7 and -9 on the LRs of those low-score PTs, for reference.

Anyway, I say this because I just want to remind you that a poor score provides the best opportunity for learning. These two PTs are not a reflection of your capabilities, but a study in worst case scenario. Now you'll know exactly how to prevent that from happening again. Better now than later, right?

You will get back to your average. And then you will exceed it. Harness this experience as motivation, not discouragement.

And, I hope you feel better. House always makes me feel better.

Feel free to PM if you think I can be of help.


Thanks everyone for the encouragement. I really do appreciate it. Hopefully tomorrow will be better and it will just continue to improve from there. I will try and learn from this and reflect on what happened and try and use it as a stepping stone. Upon reflecting I do realize some changes I've made to studying recently that are probably not the best suited for me, so I'm going to re-adjust and go from there. Thanks again everyone :)

timegoesbytoofast
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Re: The Official September 2014 Study Group

Postby timegoesbytoofast » Mon Jul 14, 2014 9:25 pm

gnomgnomuch wrote:
timegoesbytoofast wrote:Thank you for your responses on the Cambridge LR Drilling Pkg! I think I might buy it...
Hope it's worth spending $80 for; although printing everything seems kind of a hassle...

On that note, has anyone bought the hard copy pkgs (the ones that come in Volume 1, 2, and 3)?
I was thinking of getting just one of them (probably volume 2 or 3) because the PDF pkgs only have tests #1-38...

I'm being really indecisive with this pkg since I already have the Manhattan, Powerscore, and the Trainer...
AND all the past exams(maybe missing 1 or 2).

Any thoughts would help! Thanks!

ALSO, congrats to those PT-ing closer to their goals!
This site is so addicting... I come and read this thread almost everyday...
I guess knowing that I'm not alone in this helps. =)



I would seriously recommend getting the PDF versions. I've printed them out numerous times. Printing is a bit of a hassle, but with the hardcover books, you're only gonna be able to use them once. Whenever i make a mistake, i mark it down, and then when I've forgotten the problem, i retake it, to see if I'm now getting it right, or if I'm getting it wrong, why am i STILL getting it wrong.

Serious preparation for the LSAT, shouldn't break the bank, but its not SUPER cheap, I've shelled out ~400 so far, and i might shell out more. (I'm not counting the money on my BP course, though in retrospect, I'm much better as a self studier.)


Thank you! I think the fact that I'm spending all this money plays a part in motivating me to study harder! LOL

ilikebaseball
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Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2014 3:04 am

Re: The Official September 2014 Study Group

Postby ilikebaseball » Mon Jul 14, 2014 9:27 pm

Taking my first PT for the september period tomorrow. This should be interesting! I've been drilling LR hardcore, so if that's better and the other two sections are the same, maybe even a tad worse, I'll understand. I feel like the other two will come when I make PTing a regularity. December 07, lets gooooo!

h3jk5h
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Re: The Official September 2014 Study Group

Postby h3jk5h » Mon Jul 14, 2014 9:50 pm

Comstock wrote:I would mark this up as a "pretty fucking TERRIBLE" day category. Literally my worst day of LSAT prep in history.

Took PT 47, scored a 157. Haven't been that low since early may and it was just…bad. Like three points above my diagnostic bad.

To say the least, I was sufficiently rattled after this exam. To see a score that low after doing so well for so long was hard. So I wallowed around in sadness for 30 minutes before deciding I didn't want to feel like shit the rest of the day so I'll go home (I was at the library) have lunch and do another test since I have the time and I was hoping to chalk this one up to just one bad test.

Sigh.. :|


I know how that feels, bro. The sadness of getting a low score on a LSAT practice test is far greater than the pain of getting rejected by a boy/girl one really likes. The good news is, you can quickly regain your confidence by doing another practice test, whereas desperation in love breeds further disappointment.

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WaltGrace83
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Re: The Official September 2014 Study Group

Postby WaltGrace83 » Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:10 pm

Dear Gutierrez, Hoffman, Imamura, Kelly, Lapas, and Moore....and your bus,

Go FUCK YOURSELF.

12 minutes of my life I'll never get back.

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Louis1127
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Re: The Official September 2014 Study Group

Postby Louis1127 » Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:15 pm

WaltGrace83 wrote:Dear Gutierrez, Hoffman, Imamura, Kelly, Lapas, and Moore....and your bus,

Go FUCK YOURSELF.

12 minutes of my life I'll never get back.


Lol yea me and MorninCounselor were talking about this a couple weeks ago. That game isn't like weird at all. It's just plain hard.

The only redeeming quality is that the other three games in the set are very doable and there's only 5 questions in the game. Although it is game 3, so it could kill you on a PT.

12 minutes for that one is actually pretty good.

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WaltGrace83
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Re: The Official September 2014 Study Group

Postby WaltGrace83 » Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:32 pm

Louis1127 wrote:
WaltGrace83 wrote:Dear Gutierrez, Hoffman, Imamura, Kelly, Lapas, and Moore....and your bus,

Go FUCK YOURSELF.

12 minutes of my life I'll never get back.


Lol yea me and MorninCounselor were talking about this a couple weeks ago. That game isn't like weird at all. It's just plain hard.

The only redeeming quality is that the other three games in the set are very doable and there's only 5 questions in the game. Although it is game 3, so it could kill you on a PT.

12 minutes for that one is actually pretty good.


It is just so TIME CONSUMING and all the rules are conditional (except the first one) so you just have this chain of conditional logic in which nothing actually connects to anything! It is just like, "Is this condition satisfied? Nope. Is this condition satisfied. Yes. Okay so M is in 3A. Oh wait, if that happens then the whole board is jacked.......*new test*.....Is this condition satisfied? Yes." and so on. So. Stupid.

npt2901
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Re: The Official September 2014 Study Group

Postby npt2901 » Tue Jul 15, 2014 12:59 am

.
Last edited by npt2901 on Wed Oct 28, 2015 8:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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lsatkillah
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Re: The Official September 2014 Study Group

Postby lsatkillah » Tue Jul 15, 2014 1:58 am

GUYS, HELP! PLEASE.

1) I've been taking 4 section prep tests for the past couple weeks and I'm struggling with mental endurance needed to even get thru the third section non stop. I used to stop after every section, review and take notes, and have since built up my focus to last through two sections with the same accuracy. But by the time I get to the middle of section 3, I fall into that "words are being read but not processed" mode. Especially painful on LR when I try to finish the first 10 questions in 10 min as well as reading thoroughly but quickly thru the RC essays. Tips from those who are dealing with/have gotten through this problem??

2) When are you adding in a 5th section to mimic realistic LSAT conditions? I feel as if I might be wasting problems if I do so at the moment since I can't even focus through the three sections before the 10 min break!

Pls giv meh da advices. Thanks so much. Yall are great for keeping this thread running! <3

ilikebaseball
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Re: The Official September 2014 Study Group

Postby ilikebaseball » Tue Jul 15, 2014 2:22 am

lsatkillah wrote:GUYS, HELP! PLEASE.

1) I've been taking 4 section prep tests for the past couple weeks and I'm struggling with mental endurance needed to even get thru the third section non stop. I used to stop after every section, review and take notes, and have since built up my focus to last through two sections with the same accuracy. But by the time I get to the middle of section 3, I fall into that "words are being read but not processed" mode. Especially painful on LR when I try to finish the first 10 questions in 10 min as well as reading thoroughly but quickly thru the RC essays. Tips from those who are dealing with/have gotten through this problem??

2) When are you adding in a 5th section to mimic realistic LSAT conditions? I feel as if I might be wasting problems if I do so at the moment since I can't even focus through the three sections before the 10 min break!

Pls giv meh da advices. Thanks so much. Yall are great for keeping this thread running! <3


Take two PT's a day.

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lsatkillah
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Re: The Official September 2014 Study Group

Postby lsatkillah » Tue Jul 15, 2014 3:01 am

choward014 wrote:
lsatkillah wrote:GUYS, HELP! PLEASE.

1) I've been taking 4 section prep tests for the past couple weeks and I'm struggling with mental endurance needed to even get thru the third section non stop. I used to stop after every section, review and take notes, and have since built up my focus to last through two sections with the same accuracy. But by the time I get to the middle of section 3, I fall into that "words are being read but not processed" mode. Especially painful on LR when I try to finish the first 10 questions in 10 min as well as reading thoroughly but quickly thru the RC essays. Tips from those who are dealing with/have gotten through this problem??

2) When are you adding in a 5th section to mimic realistic LSAT conditions? I feel as if I might be wasting problems if I do so at the moment since I can't even focus through the three sections before the 10 min break!

Pls giv meh da advices. Thanks so much. Yall are great for keeping this thread running! <3


Take two PT's a day.


K thx

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AtticusRising
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Re: The Official September 2014 Study Group

Postby AtticusRising » Tue Jul 15, 2014 3:53 am

choward014 wrote:
lsatkillah wrote:GUYS, HELP! PLEASE.

1) I've been taking 4 section prep tests for the past couple weeks and I'm struggling with mental endurance needed to even get thru the third section non stop. I used to stop after every section, review and take notes, and have since built up my focus to last through two sections with the same accuracy. But by the time I get to the middle of section 3, I fall into that "words are being read but not processed" mode. Especially painful on LR when I try to finish the first 10 questions in 10 min as well as reading thoroughly but quickly thru the RC essays. Tips from those who are dealing with/have gotten through this problem??

2) When are you adding in a 5th section to mimic realistic LSAT conditions? I feel as if I might be wasting problems if I do so at the moment since I can't even focus through the three sections before the 10 min break!

Pls giv meh da advices. Thanks so much. Yall are great for keeping this thread running! <3


Take two PT's a day.


I had the same problem when I first started PTing!! But after some awesome TLS advice, I was able to push through it.

I first started by taking coffee/espresso before a PT. It may seem like cheating and if you're not used to drinking coffee you might get the jitters but it will at least introduce your mind and body to the stamina and focus that is needed for 5 sections. Don't worry about becoming dependent on coffee because I only did it once a week when I was PTing and after I about 3 weeks, I stopped drinking coffee completely.

I would also start adding in the 5th section on your next PT and not stop after each section to review. The sooner you start exposing your brain to the real conditions it will endure during the test, the sooner you'll start to see improvements in your endurance.

And you won't be wasting questions if you review the test thoroughly before your next PT. In case you aren't doing this already, I would HIGHLY recommend doing blind review (BR). I've seen major improvements in my thought process, even when fatigued, because of BR. Explanation for BR can be found at: http://7sage.com/the-blind-review-how-t ... at-part-1/

Hope this helps :D

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BlackCanary
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Re: The Official September 2014 Study Group

Postby BlackCanary » Tue Jul 15, 2014 4:37 am

Just did a ton of logic games. -5 on a total of 60. Stupid mistakes...kept thinking they were trying to trick me. ugh.

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Louis1127
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Re: The Official September 2014 Study Group

Postby Louis1127 » Tue Jul 15, 2014 8:44 am

lsatkillah wrote:When are you adding in a 5th section to mimic realistic LSAT conditions? I feel as if I might be wasting problems if I do so at the moment since I can't even focus through the three sections before the 10 min break!

Immediately. You're not wasting them if you're reviewing them after you take the PT, taking as long as you need to analyze each problem you had trouble with/weren't a hundred percent sure on.

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Louis1127
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Re: The Official September 2014 Study Group

Postby Louis1127 » Tue Jul 15, 2014 8:48 am

npt2901 wrote:hi. Taking sept 2014. I started studying on and off since last august and I had a dismal 138 diag. Was about to take the feb 2014 test but then withdrew last min because I was only at a 148 at that point . Determined to keep increasing that score to 160s for sept ! Just curious. What is everyone's schedule from here til the test? I've been drilling and I'm easing into timed sections now and I'm planning on taking my first PT since feb on Friday. I'm trying to make a more strict study schedule. My study materials are LSAT trainer, old powerscore full length class books, and the online access to powerscore materials so it's basically a bunch of practice tests and sets of practice questions.

I take around 1 PT a week and then drill old problems of any problems that I had trouble with (redos from old PTs i got from Cambridge). I go slower than most people though.

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lsatkillah
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Re: The Official September 2014 Study Group

Postby lsatkillah » Tue Jul 15, 2014 9:00 am

@AtticusRising, @Louis1127

Thanks so much for the replies! I will take your advice into consideration starting today.

I should have mentioned when I wrote my post that what I mean by losing focus, more specifically, is that I can't get through the 3rd section in 35 min nor without a bunch of mistakes. Still power straight through to 5?

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sfoglia
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Re: The Official September 2014 Study Group

Postby sfoglia » Tue Jul 15, 2014 9:54 am

lsatkillah wrote:@AtticusRising, @Louis1127

Thanks so much for the replies! I will take your advice into consideration starting today.

I should have mentioned when I wrote my post that what I mean by losing focus, more specifically, is that I can't get through the 3rd section in 35 min nor without a bunch of mistakes. Still power straight through to 5?


You are reading the words but just not processing the meaning?

A thought: Do you read for leisure? If not, maybe you should consider some reading seriously flowery literature or very dense theory to help to train your mind to focus. The only way to become a focused reader is to practice until it becomes habitual. Might help to supplement your PT work.

Also, you do read the question stems before stimulus for LR, right? Try underlining what you are looking for in the question before proceeding to the stimulus. Then use your pencil to guide your eyes are you read through the stimulus, and do not jump back while doing so to re-read something if you think you've missed it. So, no getting to the middle of the second sentence and then going, "Oh no! Wasn't paying attention," and back-tracking. It's a horrible habit, one that I've been trying to break, too. Go from the first word to the very last. Then re-read the entire passage again.

Definitely use your pencil for RC, and make notations in the margin as you go. Underline important information, star the main points, scribble notes, whatever. Keep your brain engaged.

Above tips courtesy of speed reading videos on YouTube. Seriously. Watch them.

cavalier2015
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Re: The Official September 2014 Study Group

Postby cavalier2015 » Tue Jul 15, 2014 10:28 am

took a 4 day break to essentially just drink..

back on LSAT from day

Learn_Live_Hope
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Re: The Official September 2014 Study Group

Postby Learn_Live_Hope » Tue Jul 15, 2014 11:35 am

I finished 30+ RC passages this morning. The whole SS Cambridge packet. :mrgreen:

Straw_Mandible
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Re: The Official September 2014 Study Group

Postby Straw_Mandible » Tue Jul 15, 2014 12:04 pm

Learn_Live_Hope wrote:I finished 30+ RC passages this morning. The whole SS Cambridge packet. :mrgreen:


You finished the entire packet in one sitting?! You're an inspiration.

FutureJD12
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Re: The Official September 2014 Study Group

Postby FutureJD12 » Tue Jul 15, 2014 12:09 pm

So I took an online prep course for the June 2014 test. I was practice testing in the mid-160's and ended up with a 158. I really want a 166 or higher on the upcoming September 2014 test. I was going to begin studying again. Is it too small of a time to make this jump back up or what? Any advice? I want lower T-14 or around that. Any hope left? Please let there be.




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