Another LSAT "Cheating" Story

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dowu
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Re: Another LSAT "Cheating" Story

Postby dowu » Tue Dec 10, 2013 1:07 pm

He read and listened to the directions so apparently not.

People make mistakes. Sending good vibes to OP.

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bombaysippin
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Re: Another LSAT "Cheating" Story

Postby bombaysippin » Tue Dec 10, 2013 1:12 pm

Listen to Jeffort. Get a lawyer. Though I may come off sounding harsh, it doesn't mean I hope you get screwed over. Good luck op.

dosto
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Re: Another LSAT "Cheating" Story

Postby dosto » Tue Dec 10, 2013 1:14 pm

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Last edited by dosto on Wed Sep 02, 2015 1:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Wrong Marx
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Re: Another LSAT "Cheating" Story

Postby Wrong Marx » Tue Dec 10, 2013 1:18 pm

dosto wrote:
Wrong Marx wrote:Sure, it could happen to anyone, right? But not everyone is going to hide their phone in the bushes. Some will just turn it in to the proctor and accept the consequences. How people handle this kind of situation speaks a lot about their character. Character still counts, doesn't it?


Well let's be completely honest here. Is OP's reaction to hide his phone, rather than confess and basically ensure an LSAC violation, at all surprising? Not that I'm saying trying to get away with it is the "right thing to do".

However, telling another person about it (in the middle of the test, much less) is just beyond me. You can't even play the stress card on that one.


I honestly don't know if a cancellation would have been guaranteed had he dealt with the proctor openly and honestly. He would have been able to explain what happened was a mistake, without having a cloud of a botched cover-up attempt hanging over his head.

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rpupkin
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Re: Another LSAT "Cheating" Story

Postby rpupkin » Tue Dec 10, 2013 5:54 pm

USAO-vet wrote:
But his g-chat logs do suggest intent, and he could be charged with conspiring.


The OP was obviously joking with his friend (right, OP?!?!). Everyone knows that the Saturday test is a different test.

Well, it's a little more complicated than that. As far as I know, my friend and I were taking the same test on Saturday. (Do they take a different exam in Hawaii? My friend believed that Hawaii took the same test as the one I took on the mainland.) My friend suggested that, before he got started, I could call him and give him some info about the test—e.g., which section might be experimental, what type of games were on the test, etc.

I was non-committal at first. When I equivocated, he offered to pay me. I told him I would think about it. I eventually told him I didn't feel comfortable helping him, but anyone reading that conversation is unlikely to think I am the most ethical person in the world.

I am more nervous than I would otherwise be because the one dark spot on my record is related to this same friend. We were arrested for cheating in a casino. (Sorry, I don't want to discuss the details.) The casino eventually declined to press charges, but I disclosed the arrest on my law school apps. If LSAC really does snoop around in my phone, and if they then issue some kind of report that discusses my g-chat conversations with my friend, I fear that it will look like I have some ongoing criminal partnership with this guy. I'm imagining myself getting rejected from a bunch of schools to which I could be admitted based on my academic record.

Thanks for your support and kind words. This has not been a fun couple of days.

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rpupkin
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Re: Another LSAT "Cheating" Story

Postby rpupkin » Tue Dec 10, 2013 5:56 pm

Bajam wrote:Listen to Jeffort. Get a lawyer. Though I may come off sounding harsh, it doesn't mean I hope you get screwed over. Good luck op.

Thanks. Sorry for the naive question, but how do I go about finding a lawyer who specializes in dealing with test companies? I know a lawyer—a friend of my father—who has helped me in the past, but I don't think he has the right skills (or temperament) for this kind of thing.

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nothingtosee
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Re: Another LSAT "Cheating" Story

Postby nothingtosee » Tue Dec 10, 2013 7:25 pm

rpupkin wrote:
USAO-vet wrote:
But his g-chat logs do suggest intent, and he could be charged with conspiring.


The OP was obviously joking with his friend (right, OP?!?!). Everyone knows that the Saturday test is a different test.

Well, it's a little more complicated than that. As far as I know, my friend and I were taking the same test on Saturday. (Do they take a different exam in Hawaii? My friend believed that Hawaii took the same test as the one I took on the mainland.) My friend suggested that, before he got started, I could call him and give him some info about the test—e.g., which section might be experimental, what type of games were on the test, etc.

I was non-committal at first. When I equivocated, he offered to pay me. I told him I would think about it. I eventually told him I didn't feel comfortable helping him, but anyone reading that conversation is unlikely to think I am the most ethical person in the world.

I am more nervous than I would otherwise be because the one dark spot on my record is related to this same friend. We were arrested for cheating in a casino. (Sorry, I don't want to discuss the details.) The casino eventually declined to press charges, but I disclosed the arrest on my law school apps. If LSAC really does snoop around in my phone, and if they then issue some kind of report that discusses my g-chat conversations with my friend, I fear that it will look like I have some ongoing criminal partnership with this guy. I'm imagining myself getting rejected from a bunch of schools to which I could be admitted based on my academic record.

Thanks for your support and kind words. This has not been a fun couple of days.


O hay "psycho gf at the firm smashed my headlights" troll. Welcome back!

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rpupkin
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Re: Another LSAT "Cheating" Story

Postby rpupkin » Tue Dec 10, 2013 7:50 pm

nothingtosee wrote:
O hay "psycho gf at the firm smashed my headlights" troll. Welcome back!

Gee, thanks. I've lurked on TLS for most of the past year, but I didn't even see the "psycho gf at the firm smashed my headlights" thread that you think I started. Sorry my situation is so difficult to believe.

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Jeffort
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Re: Another LSAT "Cheating" Story

Postby Jeffort » Tue Dec 10, 2013 7:57 pm

OP, have you heard anything from LSAC yet? Did the proctor give you any type of notice at the test center when she cited you? I'd think since they have your phone and the proctor made a serious accusation, that something would be in process already, at least something regarding getting your phone back/confirmation that they still have it/want to hold onto it for a while/will be returning it soon/procedures for getting it back/etc. Did you take the test yesterday or Saturday?
Last edited by Jeffort on Tue Dec 10, 2013 7:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PepperJack
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Re: Another LSAT "Cheating" Story

Postby PepperJack » Tue Dec 10, 2013 7:59 pm

I think this story is a flame, and made up.

I also think this is why you don't tell your friends who not to date.

Regarding the actual situation: LSAC isn't a dictatorship. There's logic behind the rules. OP's phone wasn't used to cheating, nor did it distract others during the test. The phone in pocket isn't grounds for ruining someone's life. It would make more sense to have the proctors check pockets before the test if they could really ruin your life for bringing the phone in. It's not even like drinking and driving, but not hitting anyone because one (presumably) doesn't drink a lot every morning. One always brings their phone; in this society one needs their phone. It's likely many forget to take their phone's out. If LSAC is really that concerned, they should check pockets.

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Nova
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Re: Another LSAT "Cheating" Story

Postby Nova » Tue Dec 10, 2013 8:02 pm

dowu wrote:People make mistakes. Sending good vibes to OP.

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rpupkin
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Re: Another LSAT "Cheating" Story

Postby rpupkin » Tue Dec 10, 2013 8:39 pm

Jeffort wrote:OP, have you heard anything from LSAC yet? Did the proctor give you any type of notice at the test center when she cited you? I'd think since they have your phone and the proctor made a serious accusation, that something would be in process already, at least something regarding getting your phone back/confirmation that they still have it/want to hold onto it for a while/will be returning it soon/procedures for getting it back/etc. Did you take the test yesterday or Saturday?

I took the test on Saturday.

The proctor gave me a "Law School Admission Test Misconduct/Irregularities Warning Notice." She checked two boxes. First, she checked "In possession and/or using an electronic prohibited device." Second, she checked "Other"; in the comments section on the right, she noted that I had hid the phone after using it. The form mentions a "SMIR" that the proctor is supposed to attach. I assume this is the detailed report. I didn't get a copy of that.

I tried calling yesterday morning (it's a pain to call because I don't have my phone!), but they had not "filed" the report yet. The woman I spoke with didn't know when I might get my phone back. She did ask for an alternate phone number so they could contact me. I didn't hear from them today.

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PepperJack
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Re: Another LSAT "Cheating" Story

Postby PepperJack » Tue Dec 10, 2013 8:49 pm

This seems made up. What legal authority would LSAC have to confiscate your phone, and why would they want the potential negligence risk? Say a low level employee sends pornographic pics to contacts, or reads e-mail. It all seems made up. I doubt they're entrusting 10/hour part time employees to confiscate personal items. How'd a board of top law school students not pick up on this?

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Wrong Marx
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Re: Another LSAT "Cheating" Story

Postby Wrong Marx » Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:01 pm

rpupkin wrote:
Jeffort wrote:OP, have you heard anything from LSAC yet? Did the proctor give you any type of notice at the test center when she cited you? I'd think since they have your phone and the proctor made a serious accusation, that something would be in process already, at least something regarding getting your phone back/confirmation that they still have it/want to hold onto it for a while/will be returning it soon/procedures for getting it back/etc. Did you take the test yesterday or Saturday?

I took the test on Saturday.

The proctor gave me a "Law School Admission Test Misconduct/Irregularities Warning Notice." She checked two boxes. First, she checked "In possession and/or using an electronic prohibited device." Second, she checked "Other"; in the comments section on the right, she noted that I had hid the phone after using it. The form mentions a "SMIR" that the proctor is supposed to attach. I assume this is the detailed report. I didn't get a copy of that.

I tried calling yesterday morning (it's a pain to call because I don't have my phone!), but they had not "filed" the report yet. The woman I spoke with didn't know when I might get my phone back. She did ask for an alternate phone number so they could contact me. I didn't hear from them today.


Have you tried calling your cell phone number to talk to the proctor involved? If the report hasn't been filed yet, maybe there's still time to incentivize her not to file the report?

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PepperJack
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Re: Another LSAT "Cheating" Story

Postby PepperJack » Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:02 pm

Wrong Marx wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
Jeffort wrote:OP, have you heard anything from LSAC yet? Did the proctor give you any type of notice at the test center when she cited you? I'd think since they have your phone and the proctor made a serious accusation, that something would be in process already, at least something regarding getting your phone back/confirmation that they still have it/want to hold onto it for a while/will be returning it soon/procedures for getting it back/etc. Did you take the test yesterday or Saturday?

I took the test on Saturday.

The proctor gave me a "Law School Admission Test Misconduct/Irregularities Warning Notice." She checked two boxes. First, she checked "In possession and/or using an electronic prohibited device." Second, she checked "Other"; in the comments section on the right, she noted that I had hid the phone after using it. The form mentions a "SMIR" that the proctor is supposed to attach. I assume this is the detailed report. I didn't get a copy of that.

I tried calling yesterday morning (it's a pain to call because I don't have my phone!), but they had not "filed" the report yet. The woman I spoke with didn't know when I might get my phone back. She did ask for an alternate phone number so they could contact me. I didn't hear from them today.


Have you tried calling your cell phone number to talk to the proctor involved? If the report hasn't been filed yet, maybe there's still time to incentivize her not to file the report?

If this is real and a 10/hour part time employee on the weekend takes a phone -> non-0% chance they just want to resell the phone.

Is this an I-phone 5?
Last edited by PepperJack on Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

dosto
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Re: Another LSAT "Cheating" Story

Postby dosto » Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:05 pm

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Last edited by dosto on Wed Sep 02, 2015 1:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Jeffort
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Re: Another LSAT "Cheating" Story

Postby Jeffort » Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:17 pm

PepperJack wrote:This seems made up. What legal authority would LSAC have to confiscate your phone, and why would they want the potential negligence risk? Say a low level employee sends pornographic pics to contacts, or reads e-mail. It all seems made up. I doubt they're entrusting 10/hour part time employees to confiscate personal items. How'd a board of top law school students not pick up on this?


Maybe there are legal aspects of the situation that this board of mostly 0Ls isn't yet familiar with and that's why nobody is rushing to assumptions about what the actual law about confiscating a test takers phone is. Laws vary by state by state and we don't even know where this happened, plus there may be federal laws that apply as well. I wouldn't be making any general assumptions about proctors not having authority to confiscate a phone when actual cheating is suspected without doing some very specific research. I'm aware that you can get charged and prosecuted in criminal court if you are caught cheating or trying to cheat on the LSAT, that has been demonstrated a few times already. The facts of this case are somewhat different with additional crimes beyond just the cheating, but the guys that didn't do the actual theft of the test still got prosecuted and convicted for cheating, ending up with felony convictions:

http://articles.latimes.com/2000/jan/27/local/me-58227

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PepperJack
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Re: Another LSAT "Cheating" Story

Postby PepperJack » Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:23 pm

Jeffort wrote:
PepperJack wrote:This seems made up. What legal authority would LSAC have to confiscate your phone, and why would they want the potential negligence risk? Say a low level employee sends pornographic pics to contacts, or reads e-mail. It all seems made up. I doubt they're entrusting 10/hour part time employees to confiscate personal items. How'd a board of top law school students not pick up on this?


Maybe there are legal aspects of the situation that this board of mostly 0Ls isn't yet familiar with and that's why nobody is rushing to assumptions about what the actual law about confiscating a test takers phone is. Laws vary by state by state and we don't even know where this happened, plus there may be federal laws that apply as well. I wouldn't be making any general assumptions about proctors not having authority to confiscate a phone when actual cheating is suspected without doing some very specific research. I'm aware that you can get charged and prosecuted in criminal court if you are caught cheating or trying to cheat on the LSAT, that has been demonstrated a few times already. The facts of this case are somewhat different with additional crimes beyond just the cheating, but the guys that didn't do the actual theft of the test still got prosecuted and convicted for cheating, ending up with felony convictions:

http://articles.latimes.com/2000/jan/27/local/me-58227

Aren't they accessories to a theft? Even the most incompetent cop isn't getting relegated to who hid phones in the bushes. They'd likely first worry about children who snuck an extra cookie from the cookie jar, and only after cleaning up the suburban kitchens start checking the bushes.

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midwest17
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Re: Another LSAT "Cheating" Story

Postby midwest17 » Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:27 pm

PepperJack wrote:This seems made up. What legal authority would LSAC have to confiscate your phone, and why would they want the potential negligence risk? Say a low level employee sends pornographic pics to contacts, or reads e-mail. It all seems made up. I doubt they're entrusting 10/hour part time employees to confiscate personal items. How'd a board of top law school students not pick up on this?


LSAC wrote:Prohibited items. Candidates are not permitted to bring into the test center the following items: weapons or firearms, ear plugs, books, backpacks, handbags, papers of any kind, calculators, rulers, timers, listening devices, cellular phones, recording or photographic devices, pagers, beepers, headsets, and/or other electronic devices. Hats or hoods may not be worn (except items of religious apparel). Bringing prohibited items into the test room may result in the confiscation of such items by the test supervisor, a warning, dismissal from the test center, and/or cancellation of a test score by LSAC. Prohibited items may not be used during the break. LSAC and LSAT testing staff are not responsible for test takers' belongings.

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Jeffort
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Re: Another LSAT "Cheating" Story

Postby Jeffort » Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:33 pm

Yeah, there are other crimes involved with that case that make it different, but the investigation and prosecution of them was driven by motivation to bust a ring of cheaters. Again, I wouldn't go making any assumptions about the law and/or about how it actually does get enforced in practice without doing some good legal research. You'll learn about the perils of making assumptions about the law once you are in LS. There are legal issues to OPs situation that are beyond the expertise of a board of mostly 0Ls. Specifically about the confiscation of the phone and right to search it or not, ability to use evidence found on phone against OP, etc. I don't know what laws apply to that and wouldn't presume to know from just basic general legal knowledge of crim pro and basic civil rights.

If the story is true, issues like this are why he could benefit from a lawyer in case he is the suspect of a cheating investigation. Plus, once an investigation begins into someone, it can take on new directions and forms if evidence of prosecutable crimes/offenses other than what was initially suspected turns up as a result of the investigation. When the police started investigating that stolen test in 2000, they didn't know about or suspect the other people involved and other crimes until they investigated to connect the plot to the guys and found evidence of more things to charge the guys with. It started as a cheating investigation cuz one person ran off with a test and lead to investigation of 4 suspects due to what they dug up. Being the subject of an investigation is not fun and when in that situation, it's a really good idea to have a lawyer protect your rights. If OPs story is bogus, who cares, but don't get reckless with legal conclusions.

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PepperJack
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Re: Another LSAT "Cheating" Story

Postby PepperJack » Tue Dec 10, 2013 11:56 pm

midwest17 wrote:
PepperJack wrote:This seems made up. What legal authority would LSAC have to confiscate your phone, and why would they want the potential negligence risk? Say a low level employee sends pornographic pics to contacts, or reads e-mail. It all seems made up. I doubt they're entrusting 10/hour part time employees to confiscate personal items. How'd a board of top law school students not pick up on this?


LSAC wrote:Prohibited items. Candidates are not permitted to bring into the test center the following items: weapons or firearms, ear plugs, books, backpacks, handbags, papers of any kind, calculators, rulers, timers, listening devices, cellular phones, recording or photographic devices, pagers, beepers, headsets, and/or other electronic devices. Hats or hoods may not be worn (except items of religious apparel). Bringing prohibited items into the test room may result in the confiscation of such items by the test supervisor, a warning, dismissal from the test center, and/or cancellation of a test score by LSAC. Prohibited items may not be used during the break. LSAC and LSAT testing staff are not responsible for test takers' belongings.

I stand corrected. It still seems like a dumb policy. I can envision the scenario of a senior citizen proctor trying to take some twerk's i-phone, and resulting blows. However, these are the brightest legal minds in the world so I'm sure they have it covered.

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Clyde Frog
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Re: Another LSAT "Cheating" Story

Postby Clyde Frog » Wed Dec 11, 2013 2:23 am

PepperJack wrote:
midwest17 wrote:
PepperJack wrote:This seems made up. What legal authority would LSAC have to confiscate your phone, and why would they want the potential negligence risk? Say a low level employee sends pornographic pics to contacts, or reads e-mail. It all seems made up. I doubt they're entrusting 10/hour part time employees to confiscate personal items. How'd a board of top law school students not pick up on this?


LSAC wrote:Prohibited items. Candidates are not permitted to bring into the test center the following items: weapons or firearms, ear plugs, books, backpacks, handbags, papers of any kind, calculators, rulers, timers, listening devices, cellular phones, recording or photographic devices, pagers, beepers, headsets, and/or other electronic devices. Hats or hoods may not be worn (except items of religious apparel). Bringing prohibited items into the test room may result in the confiscation of such items by the test supervisor, a warning, dismissal from the test center, and/or cancellation of a test score by LSAC. Prohibited items may not be used during the break. LSAC and LSAT testing staff are not responsible for test takers' belongings.

I stand corrected. It still seems like a dumb policy. I can envision the scenario of a senior citizen proctor trying to take some twerk's i-phone, and resulting blows. However, these are the brightest legal minds in the world so I'm sure they have it covered.



Interesting. So I really can't bring my beeper....

Allegra
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Re: Another LSAT "Cheating" Story

Postby Allegra » Wed Dec 11, 2013 2:36 am

Aren't they accessories to a theft?


What legal authority would LSAC have to confiscate your phone, and why would they want the potential negligence risk?


So 0L here, but calling this a theft, or an act lacking legal authority, seems to miss the point that OP voluntarily gave up his phone to the proctor. So while he might have had the right to refuse to give her the phone, he chose to waive that right.

I have no idea what legal right LSAC would have to a phone that was suspected of being used to cheat IF the OP had not chosen to hand it over. But since he did choose to hand it over, I think it is ridiculous to talk about theft. The proctor might have made a bad judgment call but she did not steal OP's phone.

09042014
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Re: Another LSAT "Cheating" Story

Postby 09042014 » Wed Dec 11, 2013 3:30 am

Pretty damn good trolling in this thread. Plausible story. Then slowly ratcheting up the stakes. 170

0L's stop giving legal analysis.

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USAO-vet
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Re: Another LSAT "Cheating" Story

Postby USAO-vet » Wed Dec 11, 2013 8:05 am

Allegra wrote:
Aren't they accessories to a theft?


What legal authority would LSAC have to confiscate your phone, and why would they want the potential negligence risk?


So 0L here, but calling this a theft, or an act lacking legal authority, seems to miss the point that OP voluntarily gave up his phone to the proctor. So while he might have had the right to refuse to give her the phone, he chose to waive that right.

I have no idea what legal right LSAC would have to a phone that was suspected of being used to cheat IF the OP had not chosen to hand it over. But since he did choose to hand it over, I think it is ridiculous to talk about theft. The proctor might have made a bad judgment call but she did not steal OP's phone.


Calling the OP's handing over the phone "voluntary" strains credulity. The proctor is in a position with inherit authority and I'm willing to bet that the taking of his personal property wasn't presented as negotiable.

Theft
A criminal act in which property belonging to another is taken without that person's consent.




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