Anyone who took the Dec LSAT at Rutgers New Brunswick!

ceecee
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Anyone who took the Dec LSAT at Rutgers New Brunswick!

Postby ceecee » Mon Dec 09, 2013 1:42 pm

I'm calling LSAC to complain about the horrible conditions we withstood during the test. It was unfathomable just how bad Rutgers conditions were, and it was disappointing that LSAC didn't help much even though people from their shop were on site! They called it an "act of God!" Anyone else who wants to complain has to this week for anything meaningful to happen according to LSAC guidelines. I think the best case scenario would be a make up test offered for anyone who wants it, as long as that test is NOT the Feb 2014 test (as we all should know those tests tend to be more wacky, experimental and difficult). As much as I want to move on from my life, that day was so unbelievably disruptive.

We had:
* Not one but TWO FIRE DRILLS set of during the test where we had to evacuate as in stop testing, pack up, wait outside in the freezing cold, and return to our test with the timer starting the moment we left the test, not taking into account that we were already disrupted by the...
*CONTINUING ALARM SIRENS
*EXTREMELY LOUD MUSIC was blaring right outside- JT's Suit & Tie album to be exact. The songs played intermittently (at least 3 separate times) from what sounded like a professional sound system
* random DRILLING-LIKE NOISES
*PEOPLE TALKING LOUDLY RIGHT IN FRONT OF HARDENBERGH HALL


I had other issues specific to my testing room that I'll share with LSAC but the above is MORE than enough to be upset with!


I think this had to be the absolute WORST LSAT administration in history! What are you guys going to do, or what are you all thinking?

ceecee

ceecee
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Re: Anyone who took the Dec LSAT at Rutgers New Brunswick!

Postby ceecee » Mon Dec 09, 2013 1:46 pm

By the way, here are LSAC's policies: http://www.lsac.org/jd/lsat/policies/te ... m-policies

They require complaints to be submitted in writing.

Allegra
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Re: Anyone who took the Dec LSAT at Rutgers New Brunswick!

Postby Allegra » Mon Dec 09, 2013 1:47 pm

Sorry that you had such a horrible experience. I didn't take the test at all on Saturday because LSAC cancelled the administration at my testing site, but I am worried about this that you said:

as long as that test is NOT the Feb 2014 test (as we all should know those tests tend to be more wacky, experimental and difficult)


My understanding is that the make-up for the cancelled tests will be a February test - can you say why/how you know those tests "tend to be more wacky, experimental and difficult"??
Last edited by Allegra on Mon Dec 09, 2013 2:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ceecee
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Re: Anyone who took the Dec LSAT at Rutgers New Brunswick!

Postby ceecee » Mon Dec 09, 2013 2:09 pm

Allegra wrote:Sorry that you had such a horrible experience. I didn't take the test at all on Saturday because LSAC cancelled the administration at my testing site, but I am worried about this that you said:

as long as that test is NOT the Feb 2014 test (as we all should know those tests tend to be more wacky, experimental and difficult)

My understanding is that the make-up for the cancelled tests will be a February test - can you say why/how you know those tests "tend to be more wacky, experimental and difficult"??


Oh God no!!! I'm still weighing my complaint because I want to know what possible ways LSAC will respond.

As for Feb tests,

anecdotally I've always heard this.

Then intuitively, I inferred that since the Feb tests are the only ones that are undisclosed, meaning they don't really release the questions and you can't know which ones you got right/wrong, they probably are more apt to take risks in their question types. In one practice test I saw (not a Feb one), a question that was administered in the test was not provided as a practice test question because LSAC removed it from scoring, there was probably some error or considerable controversy around it. My guess is that, in the event something like that happens with a Feb test, people would be less able to fight it since they won't release all of that information and you're not allowed to discuss test material on your own after the test.

And yet, my EXPERIENCE with practice tests indicated the Feb tests were crazy as heck (the only Feb tests I saw available was part of that book LSAC sells - it gives you three Feb tests and detailed answers for every question. I took the first two Feb tests and the second especially was quite different and weird in their questions (and answer reasoning).

This USN article has a bit of conjecture related to my points: http://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/l ... ruary-lsat

Allegra
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Re: Anyone who took the Dec LSAT at Rutgers New Brunswick!

Postby Allegra » Mon Dec 09, 2013 3:42 pm

In one practice test I saw (not a Feb one), a question that was administered in the test was not provided as a practice test question because LSAC removed it from scoring, there was probably some error or considerable controversy around it. My guess is that, in the event something like that happens with a Feb test, people would be less able to fight it since they won't release all of that information and you're not allowed to discuss test material on your own after the test.


This is an interesting issue. I've seen those "removed from scoring" notations too, but I assumed that the items were removed BEFORE the scores were released (on the basis of some statistical analysis), not afterwards because people complained.

I wonder, has LSAC ever changed a score because of a faulty question that was discovered after scores (and questions and answers) were released, because the test-takers pointed out the fault?

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neprep
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Re: Anyone who took the Dec LSAT at Rutgers New Brunswick!

Postby neprep » Mon Dec 09, 2013 4:08 pm

ceecee wrote:
anecdotally I've always heard this.

Then intuitively, I inferred that since the Feb tests are the only ones that are undisclosed, meaning they don't really release the questions and you can't know which ones you got right/wrong, they probably are more apt to take risks in their question types. In one practice test I saw (not a Feb one), a question that was administered in the test was not provided as a practice test question because LSAC removed it from scoring, there was probably some error or considerable controversy around it. My guess is that, in the event something like that happens with a Feb test, people would be less able to fight it since they won't release all of that information and you're not allowed to discuss test material on your own after the test.

And yet, my EXPERIENCE with practice tests indicated the Feb tests were crazy as heck (the only Feb tests I saw available was part of that book LSAC sells - it gives you three Feb tests and detailed answers for every question. I took the first two Feb tests and the second especially was quite different and weird in their questions (and answer reasoning).

This USN article has a bit of conjecture related to my points: http://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/l ... ruary-lsat


While I sympathize with your situation and hope that only good comes from your writing to LSAC and getting this sorted out, you have your facts completely wrong about the February LSAT.

The February tests are undisclosed, but they are undisclosed to be kept on file for use during emergency situations (like retesting) and for international administrations. The Feb. tests are not "more apt to take risks in their question types": There is simply no capricious "risk taking" by the test maker when it comes to high-stakes standardized exams such as the LSAT. Every question that you see on the test has been pre-tested to makes sure it adheres to statistical parameters that ensure that the questions are fair and accurately discriminate low and high ability; further, each section is also pre-tested to make sure that the section as a whole introduces no construct-irrelevant obstacles that frustrate the psychometric value of the test. It is absolutely not a known fact that the test in February is weird or non-standard in ANY way, because LSAC would be at a great disadvantage if this were actually the case. They claim — and law school adcoms believe — that every single administration of the test yields comparable scores. If it were such a well-known fact that LSAC has weird Feb. tests, LSAC would be in deep trouble. For more information about the degree of care that goes into producing a test form, check out http://pubsonline.informs.org/doi/abs/10.1287/inte.1040.0123?journalCode=inte.

As the poster above me said, those items that are removed from scoring are largely removed before the scores are released. You still have every right to question LSAC on the Feb. tests after taking the exam (there's a procedure to seek clarity on any question on LSAC's website). You are not allowed to discuss the test after you've completed it with anyone as you noted, but you can discuss it via writing if this writing is directed to LSAC:
LSAC will respond to all reasonable inquiries about test questions, but to be entitled to the formal review process described in the LSAC Policies and Procedures Governing Challenges to Law School Admission Test Questions (PDF), your inquiry must be made within 90 days of the date on the LSAT Candidate Report and must include the reasons why you believe there is an error or ambiguity. Your inquiry should include your name and address, the number of the question, the section in which it occurred, and the question type. LSAT Test Specialists will review your inquiry and send a written response. If the response does not answer your concerns, you can request further review by a panel of expert reviewers not otherwise associated with LSAC.
The rare occasions on which LSAC removes a question from scoring are brought about because either the question failed to perform as it did in its pretest, or someone has challenged it before the test is released. Questions are not removed from scoring once LSAC publishes the test form. This is part of the reason why you have to wait so long before you get your score.

The February tests you took from the LSAT SuperPrep series also offer no support for the claim that the February LSAT is off kilter. For one, individual test takers are no authority when it comes to assessing the complexity or difficulty of the test. Secondly, even if you found the questions to be "quite different," it is because those tests are particularly old (from the early 1990s) and are not, as such, totally representative of PT50 and above.

ETA: The USNWR article that you linked to is flat out wrong when it says LSAC is more likely to try out "weird" questions in February. Use better sources:
http://blueprintprep.com/lsatblog/lsat/dispelling-the-myth-that-the-february-lsat-is-the-toughest/
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=216990
https://www.manhattanlsat.com/blog/2012/02/01/the-february-lsat-why-its-good-why-its-bad-why-its-not-as-ugly-as-you-may-think/
Last edited by neprep on Sat Jan 25, 2014 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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DaRascal
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Re: Anyone who took the Dec LSAT at Rutgers New Brunswick!

Postby DaRascal » Mon Dec 09, 2013 4:36 pm

How hilarious would that be if LSAC e-mailed ceecee back

Dear ceecee,
We are terribly sorry to hear about the awful testing conditions you were subjected to and are respecting your request for a substitute administration. As such, we are invalidating the score of your December LSAT (180) and asking you to come to [insert testing center] on [insert date] for an entirely new LSAT administration.

062914123
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Re: Anyone who took the Dec LSAT at Rutgers New Brunswick!

Postby 062914123 » Mon Dec 09, 2013 4:37 pm

.
Last edited by 062914123 on Fri Jul 04, 2014 7:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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retaking23
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Re: Anyone who took the Dec LSAT at Rutgers New Brunswick!

Postby retaking23 » Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:35 pm

And here I was thinking I had an eventful testing situation. My condolences.

JKrolRU
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Re: Anyone who took the Dec LSAT at Rutgers New Brunswick!

Postby JKrolRU » Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:53 pm

I took the LSAT at Rutgers this past saturday too, and it was horrible test conditions. But i think it worked in my favor because It gave me breaks, and gave me time to relax my mind when we had the fire drills. Deff horible test site though, I'm a rutgers student, and the desks are so small too. I don't plan on trying to makeup because it will put my applications even further back.

Hoping4Happiness
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Re: Anyone who took the Dec LSAT at Rutgers New Brunswick!

Postby Hoping4Happiness » Mon Dec 09, 2013 7:07 pm

I CANNOT believe you had to stop, go outside and then go back in.. did you have to stop in the middle of a section?! that's crazy... I mean our test center would register 30 students, put them in a room.. start... and keep registering students and putting them into rooms etc... that was happening right outside our testroom which was HIGHLY annoying, and I felt like man I had such bad luck... sucks for me... but what you said... wow....

Hoping4Happiness
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Re: Anyone who took the Dec LSAT at Rutgers New Brunswick!

Postby Hoping4Happiness » Mon Dec 09, 2013 7:08 pm

JKrolRU wrote:I took the LSAT at Rutgers this past saturday too, and it was horrible test conditions. But i think it worked in my favor because It gave me breaks, and gave me time to relax my mind when we had the fire drills. Deff horible test site though, I'm a rutgers student, and the desks are so small too. I don't plan on trying to makeup because it will put my applications even further back.


hmm I guess in a WAY it is good that you got to rest between sections right?

Hoping4Happiness
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Re: Anyone who took the Dec LSAT at Rutgers New Brunswick!

Postby Hoping4Happiness » Mon Dec 09, 2013 7:09 pm

DaRascal wrote:How hilarious would that be if LSAC e-mailed ceecee back

Dear ceecee,
We are terribly sorry to hear about the awful testing conditions you were subjected to and are respecting your request for a substitute administration. As such, we are invalidating the score of your December LSAT (180) and asking you to come to [insert testing center] on [insert date] for an entirely new LSAT administration.


+1

JKrolRU
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Re: Anyone who took the Dec LSAT at Rutgers New Brunswick!

Postby JKrolRU » Mon Dec 09, 2013 7:14 pm

@Hoping4Happiness Exactly I was doing RC passage in which I just finished the questions, so the fire alarm came at a good time, and the other was during a games section in which I just finished a game.

ceecee
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Re: Anyone who took the Dec LSAT at Rutgers New Brunswick!

Postby ceecee » Wed Dec 11, 2013 12:02 am

Ok to all the folks fixated on criticizing my opinions of the feb test, and those making jokes out of an awful situation-seriously get your heads out of your own s***holes. This board is primarily for those who took the test at a particular site. And, you're flattering yourselves way too much with how much authority you give yourselves, you're not LSAC nor am I, so your opinion is no more valid.

In any case check out some of the LSAT Feb test scoring-I've found a number of those tests give perfect (180) scores to those who missed 4 or 5 questions as opposed to the usual 1 or none. That says a lot about how that test differs.

Moving on to what this topic is really about, I'd love to hear more from those who took the test at Rutgers NB, Has anyone called LSAC yet?

ceecee
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Re: Anyone who took the Dec LSAT at Rutgers New Brunswick!

Postby ceecee » Wed Dec 11, 2013 12:04 am

Hoping4Happiness wrote:
DaRascal wrote:How hilarious would that be if LSAC e-mailed ceecee back

Dear ceecee,
We are terribly sorry to hear about the awful testing conditions you were subjected to and are respecting your request for a substitute administration. As such, we are invalidating the score of your December LSAT (180) and asking you to come to [insert testing center] on [insert date] for an entirely new LSAT administration.


+1

That would be terrible, which is why I'm trying to figure out what outcomes are possible before (and if) I complain formally

And really you weren't there, you can't even imagine how disruptive the experience was.

ceecee
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Re: Anyone who took the Dec LSAT at Rutgers New Brunswick!

Postby ceecee » Wed Dec 11, 2013 12:06 am

neprep wrote:
ceecee wrote:
anecdotally I've always heard this.

Then intuitively, I inferred that since the Feb tests are the only ones that are undisclosed, meaning they don't really release the questions and you can't know which ones you got right/wrong, they probably are more apt to take risks in their question types. In one practice test I saw (not a Feb one), a question that was administered in the test was not provided as a practice test question because LSAC removed it from scoring, there was probably some error or considerable controversy around it. My guess is that, in the event something like that happens with a Feb test, people would be less able to fight it since they won't release all of that information and you're not allowed to discuss test material on your own after the test.

And yet, my EXPERIENCE with practice tests indicated the Feb tests were crazy as heck (the only Feb tests I saw available was part of that book LSAC sells - it gives you three Feb tests and detailed answers for every question. I took the first two Feb tests and the second especially was quite different and weird in their questions (and answer reasoning).

This USN article has a bit of conjecture related to my points: http://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/l ... ruary-lsat


While I sympathize with your situation and hope that only good comes from your writing to LSAC and getting this sorted out, you have your facts completely wrong about the February LSAT.

The February tests are undisclosed, but they are undisclosed to be kept on file for use during emergency situations (like retesting) and for international administrations. The Feb. tests are not "more apt to take risks in their question types": There is simply no capricious "risk taking" by the test maker when it comes to high-stakes standardized exams such as the LSAT. Every question that you see on the test has been pre-tested to makes sure it adheres to statistical parameters that ensure that the questions are fair and accurately discriminate low and high ability; further, each section is also pre-tested to make sure that the section as a whole introduces no construct-irrelevant obstacles that frustrate the psychometric value of the test. It is absolutely not a known fact that the test in February is weird or non-standard in ANY way, because LSAC would be at a great disadvantage if this were actually the case. They claim — and law school adcoms believe — that every single administration of the test yields comparable scores. If it were such a well-known fact that LSAC has weird Feb. tests, LSAC would be in deep trouble. For more information about the degree of care that goes into producing a test form, check out http://pubsonline.informs.org/doi/abs/10.1287/inte.1040.0123?journalCode=inte.

As the poster above me said, those items that are removed from scoring are largely removed before the scores are released. You still have every right to question LSAC on the Feb. tests after taking the exam (there's a procedure to seek clarity on any question on LSAC's website). You are not allowed to discuss the test after you've completed it with anyone as you noted, but you can discuss it via writing if this writing is directed to LSAC:
LSAC will respond to all reasonable inquiries about test questions, but to be entitled to the formal review process described in the LSAC Policies and Procedures Governing Challenges to Law School Admission Test Questions (PDF), your inquiry must be made within 90 days of the date on the LSAT Candidate Report and must include the reasons why you believe there is an error or ambiguity. Your inquiry should include your name and address, the number of the question, the section in which it occurred, and the question type. LSAT Test Specialists will review your inquiry and send a written response. If the response does not answer your concerns, you can request further review by a panel of expert reviewers not otherwise associated with LSAC.
The rare occasions on which LSAC removes a question from scoring are brought about because either the question failed to perform as it did in its pretest, or someone has challenged it before the test is released. Questions are not removed from scoring once LSAC published the test form. This is part of the reason why you have to wait so long before you get your score.

The February tests you took from the LSAT SuperPrep series also offer no support for the claim that the February LSAT is off kilter. For one, individual test takers are no authority when it comes to assessing the complexity or difficulty of the test. Secondly, even if you found the questions to be "quite different," it is because those tests are particularly old (from the early 1990s) and are not, as such, totally representative of PT50 and above.

The USNWR article that you linked to is flat out wrong when it says LSAC is more likely to try out "weird" questions in February. Use better sources:
http://blueprintprep.com/lsatblog/lsat/dispelling-the-myth-that-the-february-lsat-is-the-toughest/
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=216990
https://www.manhattanlsat.com/blog/2012/02/01/the-february-lsat-why-its-good-why-its-bad-why-its-not-as-ugly-as-you-may-think/



You can't tell me why I find a PT "weird" , this isn't the first time I've come across an old test. Screw yourself.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Anyone who took the Dec LSAT at Rutgers New Brunswick!

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Wed Dec 11, 2013 12:15 am

You need to calm down.

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neprep
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Re: Anyone who took the Dec LSAT at Rutgers New Brunswick!

Postby neprep » Wed Dec 11, 2013 6:42 am

ceecee wrote:
You can't tell me why I find a PT "weird" , this isn't the first time I've come across an old test. Screw yourself.


The sample size of February test curves and questions you have seen is too small and so any assessment you make extrapolating from that sample is statistically infirm, even if you can somehow magically control for the relative age of those tests because of your extensive exposure to older tests.

Many people come to this forum and take the information they find here pretty seriously, and I took the opportunity to stop you from spreading spurious information. That you chose to immaturely respond with an expletive speaks to your inability to consider rational arguments and respond thoughtfully, or to dissent with respect.

Also,

A. Nony Mouse wrote:You need to calm down.

jkm
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Re: Anyone who took the Dec LSAT at Rutgers New Brunswick!

Postby jkm » Thu Dec 12, 2013 12:53 pm

neprep - just wanted to say that I really appreciated you providing the information that you did re. the February LSAT. I messed up on the December test big time, and had just about made peace with canceling and retaking in February when I read the OPs comment. Making big LSAT decisions is stressful enough, and your calm reasoning really helped diffuse the panic I felt after reading about how weird and difficult Feb tests are. Thank you!

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altoid99
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Re: Anyone who took the Dec LSAT at Rutgers New Brunswick!

Postby altoid99 » Thu Dec 12, 2013 7:01 pm

OP, you sound like an entitled little brat. The rest of your posts make me think you may be slightly exaggerating the conditions at your test center.

You came in here soliciting advice from other people, so stop complaining when you read responses you don't want to hear. What you said about the February tests are flat-out wrong. Find some of the waiting threads on TLS for those who took previous February tests and you will see that no one thinks the February test is any more/less weird than other administrations. It's a STANDARDIZED test for crying out loud.

ceecee
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Re: Anyone who took the Dec LSAT at Rutgers New Brunswick!

Postby ceecee » Sat Dec 14, 2013 2:33 pm

After this point I'm going to ignore those taking personal shots at me...the attacks were really not necessary even if you call yourselves educating folks. If you're helping to educate people then by all means please do, but if you attack me I'm not going to politely stand by. In much more important news:

I'm ECSTATIC that LSAC responded to the problems, which I was NOT exaggerating. They are offering a lot of options for refunds, cancellations, make-up tests, Feb tests, or a combination of the above. Thanks LSAC and I hope everyone who felt affected by this has the opportunity for a more a favorable resolution.

03152016
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Re: Anyone who took the Dec LSAT at Rutgers New Brunswick!

Postby 03152016 » Sat Dec 14, 2013 3:54 pm

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Last edited by 03152016 on Tue Mar 15, 2016 7:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Anyone who took the Dec LSAT at Rutgers New Brunswick!

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sat Dec 14, 2013 7:55 pm

ceecee wrote:After this point I'm going to ignore those taking personal shots at me...the attacks were really not necessary even if you call yourselves educating folks. If you're helping to educate people then by all means please do, but if you attack me I'm not going to politely stand by. In much more important news:

I'm ECSTATIC that LSAC responded to the problems, which I was NOT exaggerating. They are offering a lot of options for refunds, cancellations, make-up tests, Feb tests, or a combination of the above. Thanks LSAC and I hope everyone who felt affected by this has the opportunity for a more a favorable resolution.

Criticizing your opinions about the February tests by providing detailed information about those tests is not the same as taking personal shots at you. You overreacted when you called people criticizing you shitholes and told them to screw themselves. Any actual personal attacks only appeared after you made those statements.

Stanzy1
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Re: Anyone who took the Dec LSAT at Rutgers New Brunswick!

Postby Stanzy1 » Mon Dec 16, 2013 12:09 pm

altoid99 wrote:OP, you sound like an entitled little brat. The rest of your posts make me think you may be slightly exaggerating the conditions at your test center.

You came in here soliciting advice from other people, so stop complaining when you read responses you don't want to hear. What you said about the February tests are flat-out wrong. Find some of the waiting threads on TLS for those who took previous February tests and you will see that no one thinks the February test is any more/less weird than other administrations. It's a STANDARDIZED test for crying out loud.


The OP was not exaggerating the test center's conditions in the slightest, I also took the December LSAT at Rutgers. It was quite honestly my worst LSAT nightmare, my momentum was completely thrown, I had to reread RC passages after sitting outside for 10-15 minutes in freezing cold weather TWICE, and then in the middle of the 5th section, an LSAC rep came in and basically told us there is a good chance our score won't even count, but that we should finish anyways.

If the OP exaggerated how bad it was, the LSAC wouldn't have given us the December make up options that they did and they would not have filled out two separate irregularity reports. My proctor said "I have never seen anything like this, I am so sorry that you all had to deal with this after all of your studying."

The LSAC made right by giving us the options that they did, all of them as well as all of us were put into a situation that was by no means ideal, but they did what they could and I respect that.




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