Most difficult brute force and/or simple ordering games

magickware
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Most difficult brute force and/or simple ordering games

Postby magickware » Fri Sep 20, 2013 6:27 pm

So, I took PT 68 today, and the last game reconfirmed my lingering suspicions that my ability to brute-force things and deal with a lot of hypos is still weak, and I need to fix that.

To achieve that goal, I would be happy if people could tell me what they think is the most difficult simple ordering games/games that require a lot of brute forcing so that I can do them over and over and over until I no longer have a time issue with them.

Going into a game with like 12 minutes left and having to spend all that time, only to get 3 wrong is not a good thing.

Thanks everyone!

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objection_your_honor
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Re: Most difficult brute force and/or simple ordering games

Postby objection_your_honor » Fri Sep 20, 2013 6:28 pm

As soon as I read this title I thought of 68 g4. Just brutal.

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neprep
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Re: Most difficult brute force and/or simple ordering games

Postby neprep » Fri Sep 20, 2013 6:29 pm

Try PT63 Game 3. The first two games on the PT are a joke, and the last one was actually kind of fun (I love anything with vertical stacking), but that second ordering game was terrible. Or maybe I was just having an off day.

magickware
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Re: Most difficult brute force and/or simple ordering games

Postby magickware » Fri Sep 20, 2013 6:31 pm

Ya.

I finished the first two games in like 9 minutes, and that got me really scared.

G3 wasn't that bad. Took a bit longer than it should have because I spent a good minute or two with a wrong rendition of rule #1, but got that fixed and went on.

G4 was a nightmare. I hate games like these. Always sucked at them.

magickware
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Re: Most difficult brute force and/or simple ordering games

Postby magickware » Fri Sep 20, 2013 6:38 pm

Bleh, watching the 7sage explanation reminds me of so many things that I've forgotten. It's rather quite sad.

I wonder if I should just go back and redo every game in existence again or something.

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ThetaX
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Re: Most difficult brute force and/or simple ordering games

Postby ThetaX » Sat Sep 21, 2013 10:59 am

PT 68 Games 3 & 4 have really scarred my confidence as well. Game 4 was insanely monotonous, and I did get one or two wrong (also messing up on G3) even with 13 minutes left. God I hope PT 70 is a more balanced game section.

062914123
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Re: Most difficult brute force and/or simple ordering games

Postby 062914123 » Sat Sep 21, 2013 12:02 pm

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Last edited by 062914123 on Mon Jun 30, 2014 7:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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gelato
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Re: Most difficult brute force and/or simple ordering games

Postby gelato » Sat Sep 21, 2013 12:06 pm

I need a lot of work on this too - great topic.

Took PT 67 this morning and I feel G2 was a lot like what you're describing (ordering game with hardly any inferences to make). It wasn't super hard, but took way too much of my time considering I used to zip through LG on the earlier exams.

Kimikho
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Re: Most difficult brute force and/or simple ordering games

Postby Kimikho » Sat Sep 21, 2013 10:06 pm

objection_your_honor wrote:As soon as I read this title I thought of 68 g4. Just brutal.


+1. You know a game is hard when 7Sage is talking about how he was scrambling after having fifteen minutes to complete it...

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Nonconsecutive
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Re: Most difficult brute force and/or simple ordering games

Postby Nonconsecutive » Sat Sep 21, 2013 10:45 pm

scoobers wrote:
objection_your_honor wrote:As soon as I read this title I thought of 68 g4. Just brutal.


+1. You know a game is hard when 7Sage is talking about how he was scrambling after having fifteen minutes to complete it...


+2

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elterrible78
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Re: Most difficult brute force and/or simple ordering games

Postby elterrible78 » Sat Sep 21, 2013 11:26 pm

scoobers wrote:
objection_your_honor wrote:As soon as I read this title I thought of 68 g4. Just brutal.


+1. You know a game is hard when 7Sage is talking about how he was scrambling after having fifteen minutes to complete it...


Yeah, this one is rough. You don't necessarily have to brute force it, and there are a couple things you can do deductions-wise to make it easier, but it is a well above-average difficulty game.

062914123
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Re: Most difficult brute force and/or simple ordering games

Postby 062914123 » Sun Sep 22, 2013 12:31 am

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Last edited by 062914123 on Mon Jun 30, 2014 7:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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elterrible78
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Re: Most difficult brute force and/or simple ordering games

Postby elterrible78 » Sun Sep 22, 2013 1:02 am

bee wrote:
elterrible78 wrote:
scoobers wrote:
objection_your_honor wrote:As soon as I read this title I thought of 68 g4. Just brutal.


+1. You know a game is hard when 7Sage is talking about how he was scrambling after having fifteen minutes to complete it...


Yeah, this one is rough. You don't necessarily have to brute force it, and there are a couple things you can do deductions-wise to make it easier, but it is a well above-average difficulty game.

the ONLY deduction i got was that there was a [ j - SPACE - g - r ] block... checked manhattan and 7sage and that was pretty much the only deduction they got as well. literally every solution i've seen involves brute force to a very, very large degree. if you have any other deductions, mind sharing? i really want to be able to do this game efficiently and quickly just in case something similar pops up on 70


The [ j - SPACE - g - r ] block was the big one I got, I guess. Combine that with the more minor "s can't be second" and it's a pretty powerful combo. A lot of the questions rely on splitting the diagram in "half" by placing something somewhere (questions 18, 19, and 21), and by the time you've done the one "hypo" you have to to answer each of those questions, you can use a lot of your previous work to knock out the global questions. Like I said, though, it's a toughie.

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JWP1022
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Re: Most difficult brute force and/or simple ordering games

Postby JWP1022 » Sun Sep 22, 2013 11:39 am

The worst thing about PT68 game 4 is it's a fucking tiered ordering game. You get to the game with 15 minutes left and you're like "oh yeah a nice ordering game, let's finish this thing out" before getting brutalized. At least with Dinos, Stained Glass, Conferences, etc. you know the game is going to be a slog when you're reading the stimulus. PT68 G4 just inspires some high expectations and optimism while you read the stimulus and then crushes your soul.

062914123
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Re: Most difficult brute force and/or simple ordering games

Postby 062914123 » Sun Sep 22, 2013 12:26 pm

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Last edited by 062914123 on Mon Jun 30, 2014 7:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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SupCutie
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Re: Most difficult brute force and/or simple ordering games

Postby SupCutie » Sun Sep 22, 2013 1:03 pm

JWP1022 wrote:The worst thing about PT68 game 4 is it's a fucking tiered ordering game. You get to the game with 15 minutes left and you're like "oh yeah a nice ordering game, let's finish this thing out" before getting brutalized. At least with Dinos, Stained Glass, Conferences, etc. you know the game is going to be a slog when you're reading the stimulus. PT68 G4 just inspires some high expectations and optimism while you read the stimulus and then crushes your soul.


Dinos, stained glass at least had some deducible rules.

68-4 was just straight battering ram. Took me 16 minutes to complete lol.

Kimikho
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Re: Most difficult brute force and/or simple ordering games

Postby Kimikho » Sun Sep 22, 2013 6:28 pm

JWP1022 wrote:The worst thing about PT68 game 4 is it's a fucking tiered ordering game. You get to the game with 15 minutes left and you're like "oh yeah a nice ordering game, let's finish this thing out" before getting brutalized. At least with Dinos, Stained Glass, Conferences, etc. you know the game is going to be a slog when you're reading the stimulus. PT68 G4 just inspires some high expectations and optimism while you read the stimulus and then crushes your soul.



+++1. When I first got to it I was like, "oh my god, I'm going to finish a LG section in like twenty minutes!" Then G4 was just like...nope.

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mindarmed
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Re: Most difficult brute force and/or simple ordering games

Postby mindarmed » Mon Sep 23, 2013 9:56 pm

I actually reviewed this game for the first time today with a kid I'm tutoring. When you get games like this you really need to look for the block elements and not simply brute force everything.

The S - Q -> Q3 / ~Q3 / ~S-Q and the J -> G -> R rules knocked out many incorrect answer choices. The first three games in this section are a real joke if you're normally going -0/-1 on LG.

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gelato
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Re: Most difficult brute force and/or simple ordering games

Postby gelato » Fri Oct 04, 2013 11:32 am

Ok, I just spent the last few weeks of my prep focusing on the "new feel" of the PT 60 games, which especially includes these brute force ordering games.

In regards to PT 68 Game 4, I recommend making two game boards. One game board had Q in 3, and the other does not. From there you can figure out the ordering rules according to the two game boards, which helps a lot. Also the tip from elterrible78 to work through the hypos and then attack the global questions is a very good one. Answer the questions that are easy for you to answer, and save the harder ones/the ones where you may be able to use your old hypos for last.

It still took me a good 12 min though.




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