Philosophy classes

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clay7676
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Philosophy classes

Postby clay7676 » Sat Sep 07, 2013 4:03 pm

Has anyone found their school classes to be of any help? I'm considering taking Philosophy 1021 and Philosophy 2010 which are Intro. to Logic and Symbolic Logic. Not sure what they have at other schools, but it looks like they could be of great help. Anyone here ever taken classes like such and gotten something out of them (in terms of LSAT prep)?

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Balthy
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Re: Philosophy classes

Postby Balthy » Sat Sep 07, 2013 4:13 pm

I don't think formal logic courses are very helpful for the LSAT. Taking upper level non-logic phil courses is though.

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Balthy
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Re: Philosophy classes

Postby Balthy » Sat Sep 07, 2013 4:18 pm

Wait.. is "Into to Logic" an informal logic course? That may be helpful. The formal logic you could use effectively on the LSAT would be so basic that it wouldn't be worth taking a whole course just for that.

J. R. Capablanca
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Re: Philosophy classes

Postby J. R. Capablanca » Sat Sep 07, 2013 4:20 pm

The economy is in free fall and decent paying jobs are few and far between. You need to be taking courses which will allow you to eat upon graduation, not courses which you "enjoy" or that will help you on the LSAT.

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midwest17
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Re: Philosophy classes

Postby midwest17 » Sat Sep 07, 2013 4:21 pm

superdingle2000 wrote:I don't think formal logic courses are very helpful for the LSAT. Taking upper level non-logic phil courses is though.


As a philosophy major, I doubt that any philosophy course is an efficient way to get better on the LSAT. They'll give you a little boost, sure, but not as much as devoting significantly less time specifically to studying the LSAT would.

That said, superdingle is probably right about the kind of philosophy courses that will be most helpful: ones that require reading dense argumentative writing and looking for flaws/weaknesses. What little symbolic logic is required for the LSAT is covered in the first two weeks of a decent philosophy course. You don't need practice with 10 inference-long formal logic proofs for the LSAT.

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clay7676
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Re: Philosophy classes

Postby clay7676 » Sat Sep 07, 2013 4:23 pm

I need 30 hours of electives anyway, so I have a little wiggle room there. I see my LSAT score as my future entrance to the economy, too. As far as the course, the one I'm scheduled to take this semester is titled "Introduction to Logic" (as is the book). The course description is "Formal and informal reasoning; introduction to propositional logic; formal and informal fallacies; scientific reasoning;analogical reasoning in law and morality"

J. R. Capablanca
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Re: Philosophy classes

Postby J. R. Capablanca » Sat Sep 07, 2013 4:26 pm

clay7676 wrote:I see my LSAT score as my future entrance to the economy, too.


Can you elaborate on this?

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clay7676
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Re: Philosophy classes

Postby clay7676 » Sat Sep 07, 2013 4:28 pm

J. R. Capablanca wrote:
clay7676 wrote:I see my LSAT score as my future entrance to the economy, too.


Can you elaborate on this?


Because I've committed to law school and my degree in History is not something I plan to pursue, it's something I enjoy. Thus my LSAT score is what I plan to ACE for a great law school which, after I graduate, will be what I use to make money.

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Re: Philosophy classes

Postby J. R. Capablanca » Sat Sep 07, 2013 4:32 pm

clay7676 wrote:
J. R. Capablanca wrote:
clay7676 wrote:I see my LSAT score as my future entrance to the economy, too.


Can you elaborate on this?


Because I've committed to law school and my degree in History is not something I plan to pursue, it's something I enjoy. Thus my LSAT score is what I plan to ACE for a great law school which, after I graduate, will be what I use to make money.


I'm in the working world and make decent bank with a state lib arts degree. What I am about to tell you is the honest to G-d truth and that is: THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO MONEY TO BE MADE IN LAW, and that includes biglaw. You have about a 99 % better chance of being financially better off by sticking with your lib arts degree than you are if you go to law school.

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Otunga
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Re: Philosophy classes

Postby Otunga » Sat Sep 07, 2013 4:32 pm

I think they'll help you slightly. ....Maybe. And this is coming from a philosophy major who for the most part greatly enjoyed philosophy courses. My diag was a 149, and my LR was initially abysmal. What's improved my LR is my LSAT prep. Now, I guess my LR could've been even worse without philosophy courses, but -16 is pretty darn bad.

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clay7676
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Re: Philosophy classes

Postby clay7676 » Sat Sep 07, 2013 4:36 pm

Capablanca- I hear you, and maybe you're right to an extent..but I don't understand why you are in a "Top Law School" forum telling people not to goto law school. I've been planning on going to law school for years, so I don't really understand your point.

And Thanks for the advice Otunga. It looks like the first week is dissecting arguments and determining the types of arguments and whether or not they are, which would seem to be helpful. I will definitely look at some upper level courses too, as that seems to be a consensus here.

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Re: Philosophy classes

Postby J. R. Capablanca » Sat Sep 07, 2013 4:39 pm

clay7676 wrote:Capablanca- I hear you, and maybe you're right to an extent..but I don't understand why you are in a "Top Law School" forum telling people not to goto law school. I've been planning on going to law school for years, so I don't really understand your point.

And Thanks for the advice Otunga. It looks like the first week is dissecting arguments and determining the types of arguments and whether or not they are. I will definitely look at some upper level courses too, as that seems to be a consensus here.


Bro, the reason I'm here is to communicate to the naive, and too young to know better crowd that America is eating it's young. Check out this Rolling Stone article from a couple weeks ago, especially the last paragraph.

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/ne ... l-20130815

We're doing the worst thing people can do: lying to our young. Nobody, not even this president, who was swept to victory in large part by the raw enthusiasm of college kids, has the stones to tell the truth: that a lot of them will end up being pawns in a predatory con game designed to extract the equivalent of home-mortgage commitment from 17-year-olds dreaming of impossible careers as nautical archaeologists or orchestra conductors. One former law student I contacted for this story had a nervous breakdown while struggling to pay off six-figure debt. It wasn't until he tapped into one of the few growth industries open to young Americans that his outlook brightened. "I got my life back on track by working for a marijuana delivery service in Manhattan," he says. "I've had to compromise who I am...because I started down a path that I couldn't turn away from. Student loans aren't hope. They're despair

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clay7676
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Re: Philosophy classes

Postby clay7676 » Sat Sep 07, 2013 4:45 pm

We're doing the worst thing people can do: lying to our young. Nobody, not even this president, who was swept to victory in large part by the raw enthusiasm of college kids, has the stones to tell the truth: that a lot of them will end up being pawns in a predatory con game designed to extract the equivalent of home-mortgage commitment from 17-year-olds dreaming of impossible careers as nautical archaeologists or orchestra conductors. One former law student I contacted for this story had a nervous breakdown while struggling to pay off six-figure debt. It wasn't until he tapped into one of the few growth industries open to young Americans that his outlook brightened. "I got my life back on track by working for a marijuana delivery service in Manhattan," he says. "I've had to compromise who I am...because I started down a path that I couldn't turn away from. Student loans aren't hope. They're despair
[/quote]

I completely agree with most of that, I think law schools are overpriced and perpetual debt of students is an unfortunate, unfair reality for students. However, I'm in a fortunate position to not have to worry about student debt. So this doesn't apply to me. But, even with that said, there are many lawyers who graduate from TLS's with massive debt, and end up doing great. I think it depends on many factors, but it would seem to me that pursuing a higher education is MORE important now days when you see people with undergraduate degrees working at fast food joints, and retail store, so I don't know...but this isn't really the point of my thread, so I'd rather not have it discussed anymore.

J. R. Capablanca
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Re: Philosophy classes

Postby J. R. Capablanca » Sat Sep 07, 2013 4:48 pm

but it would seem to me that pursuing a higher education is MORE important now days when you see people with undergraduate degrees working at fast food joints, and retail store, so I don't know


It's impossible to put into words just how wrong you are. Those who will prosper in the new economy are those who have SKILLS that benefit others, not those who accumulate worthless degrees, and along with them, a mountain of debt.

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clay7676
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Re: Philosophy classes

Postby clay7676 » Sat Sep 07, 2013 4:57 pm

whatever, I know law firms in my hometown hiring for good money. I think you're being way too general.

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Blessedassurance
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Re: Philosophy classes

Postby Blessedassurance » Sat Sep 07, 2013 5:00 pm

clay7676 wrote:
J. R. Capablanca wrote:
clay7676 wrote:I see my LSAT score as my future entrance to the economy, too.


Can you elaborate on this?


Because I've committed to law school and my degree in History is not something I plan to pursue, it's something I enjoy. Thus my LSAT score is what I plan to ACE for a great law school which, after I graduate, will be what I use to make money.


so your answer to one useless degree is to double down on another useless degree?

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clay7676
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Re: Philosophy classes

Postby clay7676 » Sat Sep 07, 2013 5:20 pm

I don't need advice for deciding whether or not to goto law school . Thanks for destroying my thread.

J. R. Capablanca
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Re: Philosophy classes

Postby J. R. Capablanca » Sat Sep 07, 2013 5:29 pm

clay7676 wrote:I don't need advice for deciding whether or not to goto law school . Thanks for destroying my thread.


Poor poor baby...I'm SOOOOOo sorry for not being "nice" to you. Wait until you start practicing law...everyone there is so NICE and CONGENIAL! Being super polite, nice, and pleasant is what practicing law is all about...I guarantee you're simply going to LOVE it!

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Philosophy classes

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sat Sep 07, 2013 5:34 pm

Okay, stop using this thread to debate whether law school is a good idea. If people have more to add about whether philosophy classes will help the OP, go for it. More comments about law school and I'll lock the thread.

Pancakes12
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Re: Philosophy classes

Postby Pancakes12 » Sat Sep 07, 2013 5:37 pm

OP, I CANNOT BELIEVE YOU'RE EVEN CONSIDERING GOING TO LAW SCHO.... just kidding. I took intro to logic and the only useful thing you'll learn relating to the LSAT is a firm grasp of neccessary and sufficient conditions. These can be learned easily with some practice without the course.

Taking the hardest non-logic philosopy course you can find would benefit you more.

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manofjustice
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Re: Philosophy classes

Postby manofjustice » Sat Sep 07, 2013 6:23 pm

superdingle2000 wrote:I don't think formal logic courses are very helpful for the LSAT. Taking upper level non-logic phil courses is though.


I 100% disagree with this and 100% agree with the opposite proposition. Formal logic courses are extremely important if you want to maximize your chance of 180ing the LSAT. Logical reasoning questions literally are the formal argument fallacies or forms dressed up in irrelevant semantic detail. You need to see right through the semantic detail--i.e., what the question stems are "about"--into their structure, and I guarantee you will NEVER get a question wrong. (With few but limited exceptions--to recognize a negation, exclusion, possibility, or impossibility, you might need to take a passing cognizance of what the question is "about," especially with later logical reasoning stems, but you will never need to grapple with ambiguity.)

But you have to learn the structures first. LSAT books just breeze through these structures in an introductory chapter. Not good enough. Your brain doesn't work logically. It works by association. You have to train your brain to see these structures--i.e., to work logically. To do that, nothing helps more than taking an intro to logic course that is graded on a curve. Watch your brain whip into shape then.

Also, pay attention to the sentential forms and fallacies and the predicate (quantificational) forms and fallacies. They are parallel, but the latter are a bit trickier. Once you train your brain on the former, keep at it and train your brain on the latter. You'll need both.

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manofjustice
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Re: Philosophy classes

Postby manofjustice » Sat Sep 07, 2013 6:26 pm

superdingle2000 wrote:Wait.. is "Into to Logic" an informal logic course? That may be helpful. The formal logic you could use effectively on the LSAT would be so basic that it wouldn't be worth taking a whole course just for that.


Look, it's just like law school. It's not learning the stuff, it's applying the stuff. The forms and fallacies are easy to understand in the abstract, but can be very difficult to apply in the concrete--especially the predicate forms and fallacies. Intro to logic is usually the hardest course for any philosophy major.

That's because brains don't work logically. They work by association. So you have to forge logical pathways with practice to think logically in practice.

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John_rizzy_rawls
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Re: Philosophy classes

Postby John_rizzy_rawls » Sat Sep 07, 2013 7:58 pm

I hate that quantificational is a word.

Also, yeah reading a bunch of dense philosophy/learning argumentation structure helped a bit with RC and some LR.

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90convoy
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Re: Philosophy classes

Postby 90convoy » Sun Sep 08, 2013 1:28 pm

Im a philosophy major and in a logic class right now. Actually I'm even doing hw for that class right now too and I would say that it doesn't really help that much. If anything my lsat prep helps me get better grades in logic class.

Pancakes12
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Re: Philosophy classes

Postby Pancakes12 » Sun Sep 08, 2013 1:33 pm

90convoy wrote:Im a philosophy major and in a logic class right now. Actually I'm even doing hw for that class right now too and I would say that it doesn't really help that much. If anything my lsat prep helps me get better grades in logic class.




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