i believe freedom of expression is only possible if we have.

ioannisk
Posts: 83
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2013 11:38 am

i believe freedom of expression is only possible if we have.

Postby ioannisk » Sun Aug 11, 2013 1:31 pm

i believe freedom of expression is only possible if we have an educated society.

Is freedom of expression sufficient or necessary in this sentence?

this isn't a lsat question, just a sentence that i came across surfing political forums. then my logic reasoning lsat studying kicked in....

User avatar
Emma.
Posts: 2401
Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2008 7:57 pm

Re: i believe freedom of expression is only possible if we have.

Postby Emma. » Sun Aug 11, 2013 1:39 pm

ioannisk wrote:i believe freedom of expression is only possible if we have an educated society.

Is freedom of expression sufficient or necessary in this sentence?

this isn't a lsat question, just a sentence that i came across surfing political forums. then my logic reasoning lsat studying kicked in....


Neither. According to that sentence, you believe that an educated society is necessary to freedom of expression, but nothing suggests that freedom of expression is either or sufficient for an educated society.

User avatar
BammBamm
Posts: 38
Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2013 11:20 am

Re: i believe freedom of expression is only possible if we have.

Postby BammBamm » Sun Aug 11, 2013 1:42 pm

Emma. wrote:
ioannisk wrote:i believe freedom of expression is only possible if we have an educated society.

Is freedom of expression sufficient or necessary in this sentence?

this isn't a lsat question, just a sentence that i came across surfing political forums. then my logic reasoning lsat studying kicked in....


Neither. According to that sentence, you believe that an educated society is necessary to freedom of expression, but nothing suggests that freedom of expression is either or sufficient for an educated society.

Yup

KingofSplitters55
Posts: 139
Joined: Sun May 13, 2012 7:40 pm

Re: i believe freedom of expression is only possible if we have.

Postby KingofSplitters55 » Sun Aug 11, 2013 4:45 pm

"An educated society" is the necessary condition while "freedom of expression" is the sufficient condition.

The justification:

An educated society is necessary for freedom of expression. However, it is not sufficient, as you may or may not require other things for freedom of expression to come to be.

But since it is necessary, that means if there is freedom of expression, that means that there also must be an educated society, since an educated society must be there already when there is freedom of expression (as it's a necessary condition).

Therefore, freedom of expression is a sufficient condition for an educated society.

If (Freedom of expression) -> then (Educated society)

Typical "unless" / "perhaps" conditional reasoning situation.

User avatar
Emma.
Posts: 2401
Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2008 7:57 pm

Re: i believe freedom of expression is only possible if we have.

Postby Emma. » Sun Aug 11, 2013 5:19 pm

KingofSplitters55 wrote:"An educated society" is the necessary condition while "freedom of expression" is the sufficient condition.

The justification:

An educated society is necessary for freedom of expression. However, it is not sufficient, as you may or may not require other things for freedom of expression to come to be.

But since it is necessary, that means if there is freedom of expression, that means that there also must be an educated society, since an educated society must be there already when there is freedom of expression (as it's a necessary condition).

Therefore, freedom of expression is a sufficient condition for an educated society.

If (Freedom of expression) -> then (Educated society)

Typical "unless" / "perhaps" conditional reasoning situation.


What the fuck is this bullshit?

User avatar
Nightrunner
Posts: 5345
Joined: Thu May 14, 2009 1:14 am

Re: i believe freedom of expression is only possible if we have.

Postby Nightrunner » Sun Aug 11, 2013 5:22 pm

Emma. wrote:
KingofSplitters55 wrote:"An educated society" is the necessary condition while "freedom of expression" is the sufficient condition.

The justification:

An educated society is necessary for freedom of expression. However, it is not sufficient, as you may or may not require other things for freedom of expression to come to be.

But since it is necessary, that means if there is freedom of expression, that means that there also must be an educated society, since an educated society must be there already when there is freedom of expression (as it's a necessary condition).

Therefore, freedom of expression is a sufficient condition for an educated society.

If (Freedom of expression) -> then (Educated society)

Typical "unless" / "perhaps" conditional reasoning situation.


What the fuck is this bullshit?

He's trying to say "A, if and only if B. Therefore, given A, we can assume B." Like, "given surfing, we can presume a body of water." He's just using "sufficient" in a different way.

User avatar
ScottRiqui
Posts: 3640
Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2010 8:09 pm

Re: i believe freedom of expression is only possible if we have.

Postby ScottRiqui » Sun Aug 11, 2013 5:25 pm

Emma. wrote:
KingofSplitters55 wrote:"An educated society" is the necessary condition while "freedom of expression" is the sufficient condition.

The justification:

An educated society is necessary for freedom of expression. However, it is not sufficient, as you may or may not require other things for freedom of expression to come to be.

But since it is necessary, that means if there is freedom of expression, that means that there also must be an educated society, since an educated society must be there already when there is freedom of expression (as it's a necessary condition).

Therefore, freedom of expression is a sufficient condition for an educated society.

If (Freedom of expression) -> then (Educated society)

Typical "unless" / "perhaps" conditional reasoning situation.


What the fuck is this bullshit?


Well, he's right.

if you take it as true that "freedom of expression is only possible if we have an educated society", then you know that if you have freedom of expression, then you must have an educated society, and you also know that without an educated society, you can't have freedom of expression. That's just FoE --> ES and its contrapositive.

So, having freedom of expression is sufficient to prove that you have an educated society, and an educated society is a necessary condition for having freedom of expression.

Nightrunner wrote:He's trying to say "A, if and only if B. Therefore, given A, we can assume B."


I didn't interpret his statement as biconditional ("if and only if"); he's not saying that having an educated society automatically means that you have freedom of expression.
Last edited by ScottRiqui on Sun Aug 11, 2013 5:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

huetohold
Posts: 9
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:23 am

Re: i believe freedom of expression is only possible if we have.

Postby huetohold » Sun Aug 11, 2013 5:27 pm

"Freedom of expression" is a sufficient condition for "an educated society." In lay terms, anytime there is freedom of expression, there is going to be an educated society. That's because an educated society was necessary to have freedom of expression in the first place.

KingofSplitters55
Posts: 139
Joined: Sun May 13, 2012 7:40 pm

Re: i believe freedom of expression is only possible if we have.

Postby KingofSplitters55 » Sun Aug 11, 2013 9:48 pm

huetohold wrote:"Freedom of expression" is a sufficient condition for "an educated society." In lay terms, anytime there is freedom of expression, there is going to be an educated society. That's because an educated society was necessary to have freedom of expression in the first place.


Exactly.

User avatar
Typhoon24
Posts: 649
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2012 2:09 pm

Re: i believe freedom of expression is only possible if we have.

Postby Typhoon24 » Sun Aug 11, 2013 10:00 pm

kingofsplitters55 got it.

haha this lsat thinking comes along all the time whenever i hear/read a conditional statement, so you're not alone!

User avatar
BammBamm
Posts: 38
Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2013 11:20 am

Re: i believe freedom of expression is only possible if we have.

Postby BammBamm » Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:10 am

huetohold wrote:"Freedom of expression" is a sufficient condition for "an educated society." In lay terms, anytime there is freedom of expression, there is going to be an educated society. That's because an educated society was necessary to have freedom of expression in the first place.

On second thought, yeah you are right. This isn't an "if" statement it is an "only if" statement which creates both a necessary and a sufficient condition.


I think I was thrown off by the ordering of only in the sentence:
ioannisk wrote:i believe freedom of expression is only possible if we have an educated society.

I could be crazy here (had a few drinks) but does anyone else think that the positioning of the word 'only' as 'only possible if' instead of 'possible only if' changes the meaning entirely?

As in:
Only possible if = if b happens then a is 'only' possible (not guaranteed, etc.)
Possible only if = a is possible only if b happens

The way ioannisk wrote it sounds good when you say it out loud, but it seems wrong when reading it... Again I've been drinking so... yeah..

Void
Posts: 857
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2011 10:56 am

Re: i believe freedom of expression is only possible if we have.

Postby Void » Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:58 am

Lol this thread is just ridiculous.

User avatar
Clearly
Posts: 4166
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 4:09 pm

Re: i believe freedom of expression is only possible if we have.

Postby Clearly » Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:25 am

^ it's true, this is out of control.

ioannisk
Posts: 83
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2013 11:38 am

Re: i believe freedom of expression is only possible if we have.

Postby ioannisk » Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:24 am

Void wrote:Lol this thread is just ridiculous.


are you glad i posted it?
funny how one word between only and if makes us go bonkers

but seriously though, who is right on the topic? Personally, I'm with the "freedom of expression" is sufficent to assume "educated society" is necessary group

User avatar
objection_your_honor
Posts: 625
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 2:19 pm

Re: i believe freedom of expression is only possible if we have.

Postby objection_your_honor » Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:51 pm

Freedom of expression --> educated society

The sentence is saying that if freedom of expression is present, an educated society must be as well. (That's the only way it is possible.)

bp shinners
Posts: 3091
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2011 7:05 pm

Re: i believe freedom of expression is only possible if we have.

Postby bp shinners » Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:53 pm

ioannisk wrote:
Void wrote:Lol this thread is just ridiculous.


are you glad i posted it?
funny how one word between only and if makes us go bonkers

but seriously though, who is right on the topic? Personally, I'm with the "freedom of expression" is sufficent to assume "educated society" is necessary group


Freedom of expression is sufficient. Though just in the author's belief - I would probably expect a perception vs. reality fallacy to play into this answer choice. It'd be a great misdirect - people would be looking for a sufficient/necessary fallacy.

Void
Posts: 857
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2011 10:56 am

Re: i believe freedom of expression is only possible if we have.

Postby Void » Mon Aug 12, 2013 4:51 pm

ioannisk wrote:
Void wrote:Lol this thread is just ridiculous.


are you glad i posted it?
funny how one word between only and if makes us go bonkers

but seriously though, who is right on the topic? Personally, I'm with the "freedom of expression" is sufficent to assume "educated society" is necessary group


Nah- I stopped caring about this crap the instant I finished the LSAT. But I understand why you guys are hashing it out. Best of luck on the test!




Return to “LSAT Prep and Discussion Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: blackpi, brgtvnhsmrk, dontsaywhatyoumean, jagerbom79, Majestic-12 [Bot] and 4 guests