December 2013 LSAT Study Group

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ManoftheHour
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December 2013 LSAT Study Group

Postby ManoftheHour » Mon Aug 05, 2013 4:12 pm

Didn't find a thread.

Anyone else prepping for December?

4th time taker here looking to dominate.

Largely ignored drilling on my past LSATs. I studied hard, not smart. Hoping for redemption this time.

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crestor
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Re: December 2013 LSAT Study Group

Postby crestor » Mon Aug 05, 2013 5:02 pm

In on legendary thread

scandk
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Re: December 2013 LSAT Study Group

Postby scandk » Mon Aug 05, 2013 5:18 pm

Checking in. What are your goals/where are you guys PTing now?

Edit: Didn't answer my own question. My last two PTs were 166 and 171. I'm probably closer to the middle of those two PTs; that 171 was pretty lucky. I want to consistently PT at mid/high 170s, and score 173+ on the Dec exam.

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ManoftheHour
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Re: December 2013 LSAT Study Group

Postby ManoftheHour » Mon Aug 05, 2013 7:01 pm

PTing 168-171 right now. Although, I'm taking a step back to drill questions by type.

Some of my past LSAT follies include:

-Not drilling. I literally didn't know what drilling was until one month before my 3rd LSAT. By then it was too late.
-Not always doing an experimental section when PTing. Stamina was definitely an issue.


Now that I'm actually reading Manhattan one chapter at a time and drilling 200 problems of the same type that correspond to the chapter, I am actually learning the strategies for the first time. Going to be doing that for this entire month until I finish both Manhattan LG/LR books and the Cambridge series.

After that, it's 3 months of PTs and RC.

I hope no one makes the same mistakes as I did. Not going to lie. I felt really confident about the last exam only to find out that I sucked. I finally reviewed my exam and discovered that I made a bunch of dumb LR errors on (such as on the sufficient/necessary assumption questions). I read all fast, understood the stimulus, read the stem, then forgot about the stem (and thus forgot what exactly I was looking for) because I already "had an answer in mind" and then chose a necessary assumption correct answer for a sufficient assumption question (and vice versa). Dumb dumb errors. Got too cocky and lost my focus.

After rereading Manhattan and doing 300+ questions on just those types, I don't think I'll ever miss another one again.

Took me three exams to learn but I am thankful enough for how things turned out in my life this past year to allow me to take one more shot at LSAT glory.

Any other retakers in here? If so, what'd you guys learn from the past exams?

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LSAT Blog
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Re: December 2013 LSAT Study Group

Postby LSAT Blog » Mon Aug 05, 2013 7:36 pm

ManoftheHour wrote:I finally reviewed my exam and discovered that I made a bunch of dumb LR errors on (such as on the sufficient/necessary assumption questions). I read all fast, understood the stimulus, read the stem, then forgot about the stem (and thus forgot what exactly I was looking for) because I already "had an answer in mind" and then chose a necessary assumption correct answer for a sufficient assumption question (and vice versa). Dumb dumb errors. Got too cocky and lost my focus.


I see this happen to people all the time. You're certainly not alone.

Always, always, always, have the question stem in mind when thinking about how the answer choices relate to the stimulus.

This is directed to anyone having trouble with the difference between necessary assumption qs and sufficient assumption qs:


Necessary assumption question stems will contain words or phrases synonymous with necessity like:

"depends upon," "requires," "assumes"


Sufficient assumption question stems will contain words or phrases synonymous with sufficiency like:

"follows logically if…assumed," "properly inferred if…assumed," "properly drawn if…assumed," "enables," "allows"


I've written an article with examples of many different question stems of each type for those interested:

http://lsatblog.blogspot.com/2009/11/di ... cient.html

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XicaDaSilva
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Re: December 2013 LSAT Study Group

Postby XicaDaSilva » Mon Aug 05, 2013 7:38 pm

I'm in!

Planned on sitting for the test in October, but thinking I want to give myself enough time to really nail this thing, haha.

So, what is everyone using (books/plans, etc)? I'm a first time test-taker, so I've gotten a lot of my advice from combing the TLS forums. I have PS + Manhattan for LG, Manhattan for RC and the "10 more LSATs" Series + PrepTests. Still have not quite found my mojo of LR guides...what are you all using?

scandk
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Re: December 2013 LSAT Study Group

Postby scandk » Mon Aug 05, 2013 8:02 pm

XicaDaSilva wrote:Still have not quite found my mojo of LR guides...what are you all using?


The LSAT Trainer and Manhattan LR. If you have money to spare, also the Logical Reasoning Bible, if only for their chapter on Formal Logic. But Manhattan LR > PS LRB.

ManoftheHour wrote:Now that I'm actually reading Manhattan one chapter at a time and drilling 200 problems of the same type that correspond to the chapter, I am actually learning the strategies for the first time. Going to be doing that for this entire month until I finish both Manhattan LG/LR books and the Cambridge series.


:shock: 200? How exactly did you go about doing that? Did you do them in sets of 20/30/40, etc., and did you organize them by difficulty?

I'm still going through all of the books; haven't really drilled that hard yet. I did a set of 20 LR problems per Manhattan LR chapter, and 40 more assumption qs in addition to that. Once I finish the LSAT Trainer and BP LG, though, I'm going to go hard with drilling.

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Otunga
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Re: December 2013 LSAT Study Group

Postby Otunga » Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:51 pm

It may be wasteful to drill something like 50+ questions after your first read of a particular MLSAT LR chapter, as I think it hinders the ability to improve on the questions. For example, say you read the assumption chapter and then go onto do L1 and L2 nec. assumption questions. You're not giving yourself enough time at all to ease into the new techniques that you've learned. I would say that, at most, you should only drill the L1 questions of a particular type after going through the corresponding MLSAT LR chapter. The L1 questions should ease you into the techniques and the questions shouldn't overwhelm you. I say that if you try to do too many questions too soon, that you're just going to be disappointed in the new techniques because you're not getting as many right as you think you should. For me, it took me about a month to really feel confident using the MLSAT approach, and accordingly, for significant improvement in LR to spring from it.

The main point of what I'm saying is that don't waste too much material after just learning new techniques. I recommend drilling all the L1 questions, at most, and doing them untimed. This should reinforce what you learned with MLSAT and increase familiarity with the techniques. And then, as you gradually acquire a stronger and stronger grasp of the techniques, you can challenge yourself with the harder questions and probably get more right than you would've going right into them as a result.

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ManoftheHour
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Re: December 2013 LSAT Study Group

Postby ManoftheHour » Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:56 pm

Otunga wrote:It may be wasteful to drill something like 50+ questions after your first read of a particular MLSAT LR chapter, as I think it hinders the ability to improve on the questions. For example, say you read the assumption chapter and then go onto do L1 and L2 nec. assumption questions. You're not giving yourself enough time at all to ease into the new techniques that you've learned. I would say that, at most, you should only drill the L1 questions of a particular type after going through the corresponding MLSAT LR chapter. The L1 questions should ease you into the techniques and the questions shouldn't overwhelm you. I say that if you try to do too many questions too soon, that you're just going to be disappointed in the new techniques because you're not getting as many right as you think you should. For me, it took me about a month to really feel confident using the MLSAT approach, and accordingly, for significant improvement in LR to spring from it.

The main point of what I'm saying is that don't waste too much material after just learning new techniques. I recommend drilling all the L1 questions, at most, and doing them untimed. This should reinforce what you learned with MLSAT and increase familiarity with the techniques. And then, as you gradually acquire a stronger and stronger grasp of the techniques, you can challenge yourself with the harder questions and probably get more right than you would've going right into them as a result.


That's true, but you have to keep in mind my actual LSAT scores are in the 160s and my PT scores are already in the high 160s and low 170s. That's by no means, great, but it's not like I'm not getting the concepts at all. I think I have the grasp of the material. This is my second time reading through the book. The first read through taught me a lot. I've also gone through PS twice before. The difference is, in the past, I used PTs for practice rather than drill by question type.

As for the assumption questions, I got 100% of the L1 and L2 questions right. I got 95% of the L3s and 86% on the L4s.

Should I specifically still tweak my strategy?

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Postby 10052014 » Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:57 pm

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Last edited by 10052014 on Sun Oct 05, 2014 1:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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ManoftheHour
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Re: December 2013 LSAT Study Group

Postby ManoftheHour » Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:58 pm

scandk wrote:
XicaDaSilva wrote:Still have not quite found my mojo of LR guides...what are you all using?


The LSAT Trainer and Manhattan LR. If you have money to spare, also the Logical Reasoning Bible, if only for their chapter on Formal Logic. But Manhattan LR > PS LRB.

ManoftheHour wrote:Now that I'm actually reading Manhattan one chapter at a time and drilling 200 problems of the same type that correspond to the chapter, I am actually learning the strategies for the first time. Going to be doing that for this entire month until I finish both Manhattan LG/LR books and the Cambridge series.


:shock: 200? How exactly did you go about doing that? Did you do them in sets of 20/30/40, etc., and did you organize them by difficulty?

I'm still going through all of the books; haven't really drilled that hard yet. I did a set of 20 LR problems per Manhattan LR chapter, and 40 more assumption qs in addition to that. Once I finish the LSAT Trainer and BP LG, though, I'm going to go hard with drilling.


I did them by sets of 20 untimed. I write out exactly why each wrong answer is wrong. After that, I used the Manhattan forums to go through each question and answer.

I just type the first 5 words of the stimulus in the search bar of the forums. They usually have an explanation to most LR problems:

http://www.manhattanlsat.com/index.cfm

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ManoftheHour
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Re: December 2013 LSAT Study Group

Postby ManoftheHour » Mon Aug 05, 2013 10:02 pm

jaylawyer09 wrote:
I recommend drilling all the L1 questions, at most, and doing them untimed.


What about rc? should you drill them untimed?


I'd like to know as well. I went -6 on all my real LSAT RCs.

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Otunga
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Re: December 2013 LSAT Study Group

Postby Otunga » Mon Aug 05, 2013 10:16 pm

ManoftheHour wrote:
Otunga wrote:It may be wasteful to drill something like 50+ questions after your first read of a particular MLSAT LR chapter, as I think it hinders the ability to improve on the questions. For example, say you read the assumption chapter and then go onto do L1 and L2 nec. assumption questions. You're not giving yourself enough time at all to ease into the new techniques that you've learned. I would say that, at most, you should only drill the L1 questions of a particular type after going through the corresponding MLSAT LR chapter. The L1 questions should ease you into the techniques and the questions shouldn't overwhelm you. I say that if you try to do too many questions too soon, that you're just going to be disappointed in the new techniques because you're not getting as many right as you think you should. For me, it took me about a month to really feel confident using the MLSAT approach, and accordingly, for significant improvement in LR to spring from it.

The main point of what I'm saying is that don't waste too much material after just learning new techniques. I recommend drilling all the L1 questions, at most, and doing them untimed. This should reinforce what you learned with MLSAT and increase familiarity with the techniques. And then, as you gradually acquire a stronger and stronger grasp of the techniques, you can challenge yourself with the harder questions and probably get more right than you would've going right into them as a result.


That's true, but you have to keep in mind my actual LSAT scores are in the 160s and my PT scores are already in the high 160s and low 170s. That's by no means, great, but it's not like I'm not getting the concepts at all. I think I have the grasp of the material. This is my second time reading through the book. The first read through taught me a lot. I've also gone through PS twice before. The difference is, in the past, I used PTs for practice rather than drill by question type.

As for the assumption questions, I got 100% of the L1 and L2 questions right. I got 95% of the L3s and 86% on the L4s.

Should I specifically still tweak my strategy?


Ah. Okay. Well, then the advice doesn't apply to you, but I hope it helps some others. I think your strategy seems good to me. If you're hitting 95% on L3s, you're doing something right. And if you're hitting 9/10 L4s, then you're well on your way to -1 LR sections. It's gotta be just a matter of putting it all together.

As for whether you should drill RC untimed, I personally did so at first with some older sections. Just don't overdo it, I'd say, because once I started drilling RCs timed, I realized just how difficult the strict time constraints make it. For me, time constraints on RC are the worst and the hardest to get accustomed to. I think it's easy to forget how much less time you have for each RC question relative to a LR question, due to having to read the passage beforehand. Some perspective: I went from hitting even a mix of -0, -1s, -2s and -3s untimed (between 38-40 minutes usually) to hitting an astounding -9 on a modern RC timed section. I say if you struggle on RC, as in....you're -6 or worse untimed, then just continue working at them untimed until you get a little better. The real challenge is doing timed sections. So if you're OK in RC untimed, I don't see how it benefits you much continuing to do them untimed.

I say if you're already doing RCs timed and doing OK (-6 or better), then there isn't much benefit to doing them untimed, as you may get used to the extra time and it could reinforce 'timesinking' habits.

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Re: December 2013 LSAT Study Group

Postby jk148706 » Mon Aug 05, 2013 10:35 pm

Otunga wrote:
ManoftheHour wrote:
Otunga wrote:It may be wasteful to drill something like 50+ questions after your first read of a particular MLSAT LR chapter, as I think it hinders the ability to improve on the questions. For example, say you read the assumption chapter and then go onto do L1 and L2 nec. assumption questions. You're not giving yourself enough time at all to ease into the new techniques that you've learned. I would say that, at most, you should only drill the L1 questions of a particular type after going through the corresponding MLSAT LR chapter. The L1 questions should ease you into the techniques and the questions shouldn't overwhelm you. I say that if you try to do too many questions too soon, that you're just going to be disappointed in the new techniques because you're not getting as many right as you think you should. For me, it took me about a month to really feel confident using the MLSAT approach, and accordingly, for significant improvement in LR to spring from it.

The main point of what I'm saying is that don't waste too much material after just learning new techniques. I recommend drilling all the L1 questions, at most, and doing them untimed. This should reinforce what you learned with MLSAT and increase familiarity with the techniques. And then, as you gradually acquire a stronger and stronger grasp of the techniques, you can challenge yourself with the harder questions and probably get more right than you would've going right into them as a result.


That's true, but you have to keep in mind my actual LSAT scores are in the 160s and my PT scores are already in the high 160s and low 170s. That's by no means, great, but it's not like I'm not getting the concepts at all. I think I have the grasp of the material. This is my second time reading through the book. The first read through taught me a lot. I've also gone through PS twice before. The difference is, in the past, I used PTs for practice rather than drill by question type.

As for the assumption questions, I got 100% of the L1 and L2 questions right. I got 95% of the L3s and 86% on the L4s.

Should I specifically still tweak my strategy?


Ah. Okay. Well, then the advice doesn't apply to you, but I hope it helps some others. I think your strategy seems good to me. If you're hitting 95% on L3s, you're doing something right. And if you're hitting 9/10 L4s, then you're well on your way to -1 LR sections. It's gotta be just a matter of putting it all together.

As for whether you should drill RC untimed, I personally did so at first with some older sections. Just don't overdo it, I'd say, because once I started drilling RCs timed, I realized just how difficult the strict time constraints make it. For me, time constraints on RC are the worst and the hardest to get accustomed to. I think it's easy to forget how much less time you have for each RC question relative to a LR question, due to having to read the passage beforehand. Some perspective: I went from hitting even a mix of -0, -1s, -2s and -3s untimed (between 38-40 minutes usually) to hitting an astounding -9 on a modern RC timed section. I say if you struggle on RC, as in....you're -6 or worse untimed, then just continue working at them untimed until you get a little better. The real challenge is doing timed sections. So if you're OK in RC untimed, I don't see how it benefits you much continuing to do them untimed.

I say if you're already doing RCs timed and doing OK (-6 or better), then there isn't much benefit to doing them untimed, as you may get used to the extra time and it could reinforce 'timesinking' habits.



O, any update on how you're doing. I know you and I were having similar issues with RC and PTing in about the same range.

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ManoftheHour
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Re: December 2013 LSAT Study Group

Postby ManoftheHour » Mon Aug 05, 2013 10:43 pm

Otunga wrote:
Ah. Okay. Well, then the advice doesn't apply to you, but I hope it helps some others. I think your strategy seems good to me. If you're hitting 95% on L3s, you're doing something right. And if you're hitting 9/10 L4s, then you're well on your way to -1 LR sections. It's gotta be just a matter of putting it all together.

As for whether you should drill RC untimed, I personally did so at first with some older sections. Just don't overdo it, I'd say, because once I started drilling RCs timed, I realized just how difficult the strict time constraints make it. For me, time constraints on RC are the worst and the hardest to get accustomed to. I think it's easy to forget how much less time you have for each RC question relative to a LR question, due to having to read the passage beforehand. Some perspective: I went from hitting even a mix of -0, -1s, -2s and -3s untimed (between 38-40 minutes usually) to hitting an astounding -9 on a modern RC timed section. I say if you struggle on RC, as in....you're -6 or worse untimed, then just continue working at them untimed until you get a little better. The real challenge is doing timed sections. So if you're OK in RC untimed, I don't see how it benefits you much continuing to do them untimed.

I say if you're already doing RCs timed and doing OK (-6 or better), then there isn't much benefit to doing them untimed, as you may get used to the extra time and it could reinforce 'timesinking' habits.


Should I time myself for the remaining chapters/drills or should I focus on accuracy for now and save the timing for PTs 39-69?

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Re: December 2013 LSAT Study Group

Postby Otunga » Mon Aug 05, 2013 11:03 pm

Your accuracy seems pretty good. I say focus mostly on timing.

JK: Better. I've hit -2 and -3 on RC on my last two PTs. But timing is still shitty. For instance, I had 12 mins for the last two passages on the last PT.

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clay7676
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Re: December 2013 LSAT Study Group

Postby clay7676 » Mon Aug 05, 2013 11:26 pm

Hey guys! Does drilling in and of itself help you learn the material regardless of any preconcieved knowledge of the material by conditioning to you the types of answers, questions, and stems (LR).
What do you guys think?!

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Re: December 2013 LSAT Study Group

Postby jk148706 » Mon Aug 05, 2013 11:32 pm

Otunga wrote:Your accuracy seems pretty good. I say focus mostly on timing.

JK: Better. I've hit -2 and -3 on RC on my last two PTs. But timing is still shitty. For instance, I had 12 mins for the last two passages on the last PT.


Nice man, making progress. Only two months away.

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boris09
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Re: December 2013 LSAT Study Group

Postby boris09 » Tue Aug 06, 2013 3:43 am

Hello everyone, deciding to check into my first true thread here. Was quite cautious at first, as i'm not one of those "get 160+ on diagnostic" type of guys who are already geniuses at this stuff. But, I figured that perhaps being a part of this environment will help motivate me :)

I've finished the PS LG book and now i'm in the process of completing the PS LR book. Afterwards, I was planning on reading through the MLSAT books to fine tune any concepts I felt were unclear through my reading of the powerscore books.

I was wondering though...I was planning on getting the cambridge packets for logic games and logical reasoning, but when would be an appropriate time to actually drill questions? Would it be once I actually know how to do each type (after i've read the corresponding chapter in the book as a user mentioned earlier)? Or, would you suggest drilling once i've gone through absolutely everything, to specifically know what i'm good or not good at?

scandk
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Re: December 2013 LSAT Study Group

Postby scandk » Tue Aug 06, 2013 10:11 am

boris09 wrote:Hello everyone, deciding to check into my first true thread here. Was quite cautious at first, as i'm not one of those "get 160+ on diagnostic" type of guys who are already geniuses at this stuff. But, I figured that perhaps being a part of this environment will help motivate me :)


I wasn't a 160+ diagnostic either (157), but we're still going to wreck this test.

boris09 wrote:I've finished the PS LG book and now i'm in the process of completing the PS LR book. Afterwards, I was planning on reading through the MLSAT books to fine tune any concepts I felt were unclear through my reading of the powerscore books.

I was wondering though...I was planning on getting the cambridge packets for logic games and logical reasoning, but when would be an appropriate time to actually drill questions? Would it be once I actually know how to do each type (after i've read the corresponding chapter in the book as a user mentioned earlier)? Or, would you suggest drilling once i've gone through absolutely everything, to specifically know what i'm good or not good at?


There are tons of questions per type in the cambridge packets, so I would drill about 20 of the corresponding chapter (i.e., you just finished the chapter on flaws, do 20 flaw problems). This way, you can reinforce what you've learned, and still have over a hundred problems to fine tune your skills with. TBH, Manhattan LR is leagues better then the LRB, so I personally would start drilling while reading MLSAT LR. Also, once you're further along in the book, whichever you choose, I would go back and drill ~20 of the first few types to make sure you're not forgetting anything.

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John_rizzy_rawls
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Re: December 2013 LSAT Study Group

Postby John_rizzy_rawls » Tue Aug 06, 2013 10:17 am

Checking in.

Retaking in Oct.

Probably taking a third time in December if I don't crack 173+.

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Dr. Dre
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Re: December 2013 LSAT Study Group

Postby Dr. Dre » Tue Aug 06, 2013 7:00 pm

John_rizzy_rawls wrote:Checking in.

Retaking in Oct.

Probably taking a third time in December if I don't crack 173+.



+1

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boris09
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Re: December 2013 LSAT Study Group

Postby boris09 » Tue Aug 06, 2013 7:12 pm

scandk wrote: There are tons of questions per type in the cambridge packets, so I would drill about 20 of the corresponding chapter (i.e., you just finished the chapter on flaws, do 20 flaw problems). This way, you can reinforce what you've learned, and still have over a hundred problems to fine tune your skills with. TBH, Manhattan LR is leagues better then the LRB, so I personally would start drilling while reading MLSAT LR. Also, once you're further along in the book, whichever you choose, I would go back and drill ~20 of the first few types to make sure you're not forgetting anything.


Thanks for the tip! I'll definitely get to doing that. With so many people talking about both powerscore and MLSAT, I figured it wouldn't hurt to read both, but i'm starting to think that it might be a waste of time to read the powerscore LRB if i'll be learning more effective/better ways to approach question from the MLSAT LR...

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Sharpe
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Re: December 2013 LSAT Study Group

Postby Sharpe » Tue Aug 06, 2013 7:45 pm

Checking in.

December will be my first time writing. Based on recommendations from TLS, currently prepping with PS LG and LR bibles, LSAC SuperPrep, and PrepTests. Best of luck everyone!

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lavender01
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Re: December 2013 LSAT Study Group

Postby lavender01 » Tue Aug 06, 2013 10:47 pm

Checking in! Was going to take the Oct test but after heavy consideration I have decided to take the Dec LSAT. Initially, I was planning to take a course to supplement my self-study & take in Oct, but that was an epic fail because all three of the courses I wanted to enroll in were cancelled. So since I know I won't be completely ready by Oct I am going to study on my own for the Dec LSAT

I have PS LRB, LGB, and RC. I also have all three of Manhattan's books. & I have 20 LSAT PT. & after thoroughly stalking TLS I have put together my own "syllabus" and calendar lol. Since the fall semester is creeping up, I know I will do best by studying for the LSAT like it is one of my college courses. I am a little nervous about studying on my own, but I am going to stick with it.

I noticed people talking about drilling...what exactly does that consist of and what books do you use to drill questions by type?

Also are you guys applying this cycle or next cycle?




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