The LG Conundrum

jaglsat2013
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The LG Conundrum

Postby jaglsat2013 » Thu Jun 27, 2013 11:44 am

Dear all,

I have gone through the LG Bible and couple other books, and have done atleast 20 LG Sections. But, I just cannot finish in time. It takes me an average of 50 mins to finish a section with less than 2 wrong. If I slow down further, I can get an 'all correct' section.

I have no problems with the games syntax, the short hand that is, or with setting the games up.

What do I need to do to finish in time?

Would a prep course help? Velocity LSAT maybe? Just as I mentioned above, I know the short hand used to write the games down pretty well.

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TheMostDangerousLG
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Re: The LG Conundrum

Postby TheMostDangerousLG » Thu Jun 27, 2013 11:46 am

jaglsat2013 wrote:Dear all,

I have gone through the LG Bible and couple other books, and have done atleast 20 LG Sections. But, I just cannot finish in time. It takes me an average of 50 mins to finish a section with less than 2 wrong. If I slow down further, I can get an 'all correct' section.

I have no problems with the games syntax, the short hand that is, or with setting the games up.

What do I need to do to finish in time?

Would a prep course help? Velocity LSAT maybe? Just as I mentioned above, I know the short hand used to write the games down pretty well.


Drill. It's all about familiarity. I'd recommend purchasing the Cambridge packets of different game types, printing them, and just going through them while timing yourself on each game.

magickware
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Re: The LG Conundrum

Postby magickware » Thu Jun 27, 2013 11:47 am

Time yourself on every game, but only to see how long it's taking you. Just go as quickly as you can while still maintaining accuracy.

Do every LG at least twice. I'm serious. What you need is exposure and repetition.

But to specify-
What is your process? What takes the longest time? Inference making? The questions themselves?

Try to be specific; general questions receive general answers!

And, no, prep courses aren't needed with the amount of work you've put in thus far.

jaglsat2013
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Re: The LG Conundrum

Postby jaglsat2013 » Thu Jun 27, 2013 11:52 am

TheMostDangerousLG wrote:
jaglsat2013 wrote:Dear all,

I have gone through the LG Bible and couple other books, and have done atleast 20 LG Sections. But, I just cannot finish in time. It takes me an average of 50 mins to finish a section with less than 2 wrong. If I slow down further, I can get an 'all correct' section.

I have no problems with the games syntax, the short hand that is, or with setting the games up.

What do I need to do to finish in time?

Would a prep course help? Velocity LSAT maybe? Just as I mentioned above, I know the short hand used to write the games down pretty well.


Drill. It's all about familiarity. I'd recommend purchasing the Cambridge packets of different game types, printing them, and just going through them while timing yourself on each game.



Well, I just got done drilling the linear games 'balanced', 20 of them, finished say half of them below 10 mins, and half above 10 mins. The problem remains!

jaglsat2013
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Re: The LG Conundrum

Postby jaglsat2013 » Thu Jun 27, 2013 11:56 am

magickware wrote:Time yourself on every game, but only to see how long it's taking you. Just go as quickly as you can while still maintaining accuracy.

Do every LG at least twice. I'm serious. What you need is exposure and repetition.

But to specify-
What is your process? What takes the longest time? Inference making? The questions themselves?

Try to be specific; general questions receive general answers!

And, no, prep courses aren't needed with the amount of work you've put in thus far.


My process is:
-Read the game
-Write down the independent set as the set up base
-Write down the dependent set
-Write down and memorize the rules
-Identify the random variables
-Infer (4-5 mins upto this step)
-Read the questions, and put the info in the setup and look for the correct choice. (Some questions take so long that I go over)

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TheMostDangerousLG
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Re: The LG Conundrum

Postby TheMostDangerousLG » Thu Jun 27, 2013 12:12 pm

jaglsat2013 wrote:
TheMostDangerousLG wrote:
jaglsat2013 wrote:Dear all,

I have gone through the LG Bible and couple other books, and have done atleast 20 LG Sections. But, I just cannot finish in time. It takes me an average of 50 mins to finish a section with less than 2 wrong. If I slow down further, I can get an 'all correct' section.

I have no problems with the games syntax, the short hand that is, or with setting the games up.

What do I need to do to finish in time?

Would a prep course help? Velocity LSAT maybe? Just as I mentioned above, I know the short hand used to write the games down pretty well.


Drill. It's all about familiarity. I'd recommend purchasing the Cambridge packets of different game types, printing them, and just going through them while timing yourself on each game.



Well, I just got done drilling the linear games 'balanced', 20 of them, finished say half of them below 10 mins, and half above 10 mins. The problem remains!


Drill and drill again. By the time I had taken the test, I had done many a game at least twice, and a good number multiple times (particularly those I had especially struggled with). By my retake, the number of times I had played every game was obscene.

This test is work. You're going to have to work, work again, work better, work smarter, work faster, and then work some more. You'll get there if you're willing to do so.

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ScottRiqui
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Re: The LG Conundrum

Postby ScottRiqui » Thu Jun 27, 2013 12:17 pm

OP, I was in the same boat as you. Up until a few weeks ago, 8:00 was a "fast" game for me, and it wasn't unusual to for me to take ten or twelve minutes (or more) if the game gave me any trouble at all. My diagrams were good, and I was accurately recording all of the rules, but I just wasn't seeing the inferences or even the obvious ramifications of the rules. As a result, I had to do a LOT of hypotheticals to answer the questions. I would eventually get to the correct answers, but that didn't do me any good when I would run out of time at the end of a section with a half a game (or even a full game) left undone.

What worked for me was drilling by type, over and over and over again. I would print out three games of the same type and work them untimed, concentrating on trying to find inferences and making my diagrams as complete as possible before attacking the questions. The when I'm done with those three problems, I'll go to the 7sage site and watch the explanatory videos to see if there were any "a-ha" inferences that I missed. Then I'll re-work the problems, either right away or the next day. Then I'll print out another three problems and do it all again.

My plan right now is that before October, I want to have done every published LG at least 3-4 times. I've only been hitting it hard the past two weeks or so, but I'm already to the point where a "slow/troublesome" game is taking me about ten minutes, and I've finished a few in under four minutes.

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myscoreonmysleeve
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Re: The LG Conundrum

Postby myscoreonmysleeve » Thu Jun 27, 2013 12:19 pm

Watch 7sage on youtube. It helps to see the thought process of a high scorer in action. In/out games and simple ordering shouldn't take you more than 5 mins. I think 7sage has good advice all round fyi.

jaglsat2013
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Re: The LG Conundrum

Postby jaglsat2013 » Thu Jun 27, 2013 2:54 pm

ScottRiqui wrote:OP, I was in the same boat as you. Up until a few weeks ago, 8:00 was a "fast" game for me, and it wasn't unusual to for me to take ten or twelve minutes (or more) if the game gave me any trouble at all. My diagrams were good, and I was accurately recording all of the rules, but I just wasn't seeing the inferences or even the obvious ramifications of the rules. As a result, I had to do a LOT of hypotheticals to answer the questions. I would eventually get to the correct answers, but that didn't do me any good when I would run out of time at the end of a section with a half a game (or even a full game) left undone.

What worked for me was drilling by type, over and over and over again. I would print out three games of the same type and work them untimed, concentrating on trying to find inferences and making my diagrams as complete as possible before attacking the questions. The when I'm done with those three problems, I'll go to the 7sage site and watch the explanatory videos to see if there were any "a-ha" inferences that I missed. Then I'll re-work the problems, either right away or the next day. Then I'll print out another three problems and do it all again.

My plan right now is that before October, I want to have done every published LG at least 3-4 times. I've only been hitting it hard the past two weeks or so, but I'm already to the point where a "slow/troublesome" game is taking me about ten minutes, and I've finished a few in under four minutes.


One of the problems is that there are so few games in all! I am always afraid that I am going to run out of games before I master them. Repeating a game does not inspire much confidence in me, as I surely remember something about it from having done it before!

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barrelofmonkeys
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Re: The LG Conundrum

Postby barrelofmonkeys » Thu Jun 27, 2013 3:14 pm

jaglsat2013 wrote:
ScottRiqui wrote:OP, I was in the same boat as you. Up until a few weeks ago, 8:00 was a "fast" game for me, and it wasn't unusual to for me to take ten or twelve minutes (or more) if the game gave me any trouble at all. My diagrams were good, and I was accurately recording all of the rules, but I just wasn't seeing the inferences or even the obvious ramifications of the rules. As a result, I had to do a LOT of hypotheticals to answer the questions. I would eventually get to the correct answers, but that didn't do me any good when I would run out of time at the end of a section with a half a game (or even a full game) left undone.

What worked for me was drilling by type, over and over and over again. I would print out three games of the same type and work them untimed, concentrating on trying to find inferences and making my diagrams as complete as possible before attacking the questions. The when I'm done with those three problems, I'll go to the 7sage site and watch the explanatory videos to see if there were any "a-ha" inferences that I missed. Then I'll re-work the problems, either right away or the next day. Then I'll print out another three problems and do it all again.

My plan right now is that before October, I want to have done every published LG at least 3-4 times. I've only been hitting it hard the past two weeks or so, but I'm already to the point where a "slow/troublesome" game is taking me about ten minutes, and I've finished a few in under four minutes.


One of the problems is that there are so few games in all! I am always afraid that I am going to run out of games before I master them. Repeating a game does not inspire much confidence in me, as I surely remember something about it from having done it before!


It is important to have fresh material, but you can definitely get just as much out of a game the second/third time you do it as you did the first. As long as you don't just go "oh, #6 was A" and you instead work through the entire problem all over again, you'll still reap the benefits of the drill.

If you're still really worried about that, you might try waiting a while before returning to a game. Sure, you're going to remember some things, but the VAST MAJORITY of the games are pretty similar anyway, so recognizing the patterns is a GOOD thing.

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Re: The LG Conundrum

Postby bp shinners » Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:06 pm

When you're accurate but slow, you need to go back over your work to see what you did that didn't get you closer to a correct answer, or was unnecessary to answer the question. If you're taking that long, you're doing a LOT of stuff that just isn't necessary. In fact, taking 5 minutes to get through the setup suggests you're doing a lot of stuff up front that isn't necessary.

Based on my experience, you're probably spending too much time looking for deductions. "Deduction" is just a fancy word for a combination of two or more rules. Compare the first rule against the second; if they share a player or slot, combine them. If not, do the same to the first and third. Then the first and fourth, and so on. Then the second and third, and so on. Once you've compared each rule to each other rule, you're done. Will you miss some high level deductions? Probably. But you'll catch most of them, and the subtlest deductions are also the ones you're most likely to miss without spending more time than it's worth.

After that, you need to get faster and going through the questions. A lot of this is confidence - you should be proving one answer, not disproving each other answer and proving the correct one. If you're taking the time to work through each answer choice, there's very little chance you'll ever finish on time!

Reframe
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Re: The LG Conundrum

Postby Reframe » Thu Jun 27, 2013 10:12 pm

Your instinct is right: it's not good to waste material (for most students, it's not ever the same doing a game again, even the second or third time, even months later; I'm curious as to where the new drilling dogma on TLS came from, since it wasn't here when I was prepping) when you're not happy with your strategies yet.

My suggestion is to keep track of your time by question. Write down when you start each question of the game as well as when you finish the game entirely. That will show you where you are losing time. Once you've done that, or if you already have, let us know and we can give you some more in-depth feedback.

That said, I agree with BP Shinners that your "infer" step is useless. Take it out. Completely. Unless the game feels as though it holds inferences, that step should not be there.

Daily_Double
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Re: The LG Conundrum

Postby Daily_Double » Thu Jun 27, 2013 10:43 pm

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Last edited by Daily_Double on Sun Sep 15, 2013 11:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Reframe
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Re: The LG Conundrum

Postby Reframe » Thu Jun 27, 2013 10:47 pm

Daily_Double wrote:
Reframe wrote:That said, I agree with BP Shinners that your "infer" step is useless. Take it out. Completely. Unless the game feels as though it holds inferences, that step should not be there.


This sounds like a contradiction to me. I would say that the setup and inference phase of games shouldn't take more than two minutes, however that pause between the setup and question X is invaluable in my opinion. I say it's a contradiction because all games hold inferences, though some are more important inferences than others, and one has to look for them for a few seconds by just skimming the diagram and noting the interactions between the rules to determine whether or not the game holds inferences. I'm suggesting that one can't tell whether the game holds inferences unless one takes the "infer" step. Though I will concede that some games do have a particular feel to them which signals the presence or lack of inferences, that being said, this step is still at least not useless.

For particular games, once one gets good at games in general, one can answer at least two questions, and decrease the amount of time spent per question by taking this infer step.


For the majority of my students, and especially the ones who are doing poorly with time, this step consists of staring at the page waiting for something to happen. I guess what you're saying is there's a tension between talking about whether a game "feels" like it holds inferences and saying that the "infer" step should be taken out completely, since you can't really "feel" your way around a game without that step. I think that depends on the student. Actually, there are often very concrete things you can look for to figure out if a game will hold inferences, but it's much better to learn to integrate this into your rule-writing - just disciplining yourself regarding what you think about while you write down the rules - than to make it its own explicit step.

To the OP: if you do stick with an "infer" step, you need to make sure that, if after ten seconds (yes! only ten seconds!) it doesn't feel like anything is coming to you, you move on and go to the first question.

Daily_Double
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Re: The LG Conundrum

Postby Daily_Double » Thu Jun 27, 2013 10:54 pm

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Last edited by Daily_Double on Sun Sep 15, 2013 11:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Clearly
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Re: The LG Conundrum

Postby Clearly » Thu Jun 27, 2013 11:14 pm

Yes, take velocity. For like 250$ its the best out there for LG. Such a legit program.

magickware
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Re: The LG Conundrum

Postby magickware » Thu Jun 27, 2013 11:26 pm

jaglsat2013 wrote:My process is:
-Read the game
-Write down the independent set as the set up base
-Write down the dependent set
-Write down and memorize the rules
-Identify the random variables
-Infer (4-5 mins upto this step)
-Read the questions, and put the info in the setup and look for the correct choice. (Some questions take so long that I go over)


You take much too long on inference.

Your steps up to inference making should take no more than 30 seconds to a minute for the most part (obviously there are exceptions, but they tend to be rare).

As for inference making in general-

I typically go about it like this-
-Take note of how the possible variables play into the # of spaces. This is most pertinent on grouping games, especially closed ones, and a lot of closed grouping games make this a key factor in understanding the game. Always pay attention to this.
-Combine rules and see how they play out. If I see anything interesting, I continue pursuing it until it seems pointless (as in it just leads to 4 or more possible game boards), or I got everything I can get.

That's pretty much it.

But like others have said, this has to be quick. If you don't see anything within 10-15 seconds, then you need to just move straight onto the questions. Time spent pursuing leads are valuable (and you'll get better at seeing inferences the more games you do simply because you get used to it), but you should always be spending the vast majority of your time on the questions themselves.

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ScottRiqui
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Re: The LG Conundrum

Postby ScottRiqui » Thu Jun 27, 2013 11:50 pm

Clearlynotstefan wrote:Yes, take velocity. For like 250$ its the best out there for LG. Such a legit program.


I got the Velocity course, and it really didn't do too much for me. Maybe I was too slow at generating hypos, but the time I saved by jumping immediately into the questions and plugging and chugging always seemed to be lost on the back side by writing extra hypos.

I hear a lot of good things about Velocity, so I'm sure it's a great program; I just don't think it was the best for me.

Daily_Double
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Re: The LG Conundrum

Postby Daily_Double » Thu Jun 27, 2013 11:55 pm

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Last edited by Daily_Double on Sun Sep 15, 2013 11:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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myscoreonmysleeve
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Re: The LG Conundrum

Postby myscoreonmysleeve » Sat Jun 29, 2013 7:27 pm

myscoreonmysleeve wrote:Watch 7sage on youtube. It helps to see the thought process of a high scorer in action. In/out games and simple ordering shouldn't take you more than 5 mins. I think 7sage has good advice all round fyi.

Free.

jaglsat2013
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Re: The LG Conundrum

Postby jaglsat2013 » Sun Jun 30, 2013 9:24 pm

Thanks a lot! This was helpful! I think I need to back myself to do get done with the setup and inference part in less than two mins, that should do it! Will let you know!

jaglsat2013
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Re: The LG Conundrum

Postby jaglsat2013 » Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:30 pm

Is it safe to say that the "Advanced Linear Games" will always take longer than other games, and so one should give ~12 mins to them? And that way the setup for them can be given up to 5 mins? I have always found that there is a lot to infer in these games.

magickware
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Re: The LG Conundrum

Postby magickware » Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:51 pm

jaglsat2013 wrote:Is it safe to say that the "Advanced Linear Games" will always take longer than other games, and so one should give ~12 mins to them? And that way the setup for them can be given up to 5 mins? I have always found that there is a lot to infer in these games.


No.

All games can be completed in under 10 minutes. Only the worst games in existence should take more than 10.

And your inference making should be more of a process that you follow than a strict time you keep yourself to.

Basically, if you're staring at the paper for more than 10 seconds while on the BP or making inferences, then go straight to the questions. If you're sitting and staring at the paper for more than 10 seconds while doing the question, then you probably missed an inference and should go back.

Imo, it is always preferable to be brute-forcing questions than wasting time looking for inferences.

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Clearly
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Re: The LG Conundrum

Postby Clearly » Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:25 pm

jaglsat2013 wrote:Is it safe to say that the "Advanced Linear Games" will always take longer than other games, and so one should give ~12 mins to them? And that way the setup for them can be given up to 5 mins? I have always found that there is a lot to infer in these games.

in order for an advanced game to work, they have to give you more rules, and usually more solid rules. I can usually do these faster than regular sequencing as a result! Keep working on games, and don't sell yourself short, it often takes a lot of work before they start to click well.

jaglsat2013
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Re: The LG Conundrum

Postby jaglsat2013 » Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:35 pm

Clearlynotstefan wrote:
jaglsat2013 wrote:Is it safe to say that the "Advanced Linear Games" will always take longer than other games, and so one should give ~12 mins to them? And that way the setup for them can be given up to 5 mins? I have always found that there is a lot to infer in these games.

in order for an advanced game to work, they have to give you more rules, and usually more solid rules. I can usually do these faster than regular sequencing as a result! Keep working on games, and don't sell yourself short, it often takes a lot of work before they start to click well.


That actually makes sense! Great feed back! Thanks! I am finally giving it my all. I think this test cannot be tamed with anything less! October is it for me though! I think there is enough time.




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