Business Student with LSAT Questions

SmokeyG
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Business Student with LSAT Questions

Postby SmokeyG » Wed Jun 26, 2013 8:32 pm

Hi guys,

I am a full ride student at a top 10 business school (lower end of that though) who has always (and I mean ALWAYS) had a strong interest in justice and politics. I'm currently sophomore (rising junior) who works as an investment banking analyst in NYC. Short term, I plan to do that again next summer, and hopefully secure a full time offer and work in banking for a few years to cushion my bank account. After that, I would like to attend law school, but I do not see myself going unless I was accepted to Harvard, Yale, or Stanford.

So today I had some down time (somehow) and I downloaded and took a free LSAT practice test. It was the first time I had even looked at an LSAT, and I have never read about the test or studied for it. Ultimately, I scored a 166 but I was very generous on the time limit. In some sections I went over by up to 20 minutes, but I was also allowing myself to become distracted and even occasionally reading parts of the SCOTUS opinions in the DOMA case.

My questions are:

a) Is that a good score?
b) Can one greatly improve ones LSAT score, or is it more of an aptitude test where one will not see a great level of improvement over time?
c) Will time kill me? It was more Section 2 where I slowed, I flew through the logic puzzles in Section 1, and Section 4 was easy on time because there were 5-7 question on each paragraph.
d) Which sections are considered the hardest?I had only miss 7 until the last section with paragraphs. In that section alone, I missed 6.

Thanks everyone, and good luck to you all in you various ventures!

-SG

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malleus discentium
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Re: Business Student with LSAT Questions

Postby malleus discentium » Wed Jun 26, 2013 8:59 pm

A) A 166 diagnostic is a great diagnostic and a serviceable actual score (though generally not for T14 schools). But unless you took it under timed conditions, a diagnostic score is mostly useless. You have to take it under conditions if you want a meaningful baseline.
B) Yes. It will be work, but the LSAT is learnable.
C) Time management is an important element of the test, yes. As you study you'll learn where you need to cut time and where you're okay. Good news, LG tends to be the section where most people are pressed for time, so if you were able to comfortably finish it in 35 minutes you're mostly golden.
D) Different people find different sections to be the most difficult. To answer the question I suspect you were actually asking, LG is far and away the most improvable section. LR is next and RC can be difficult to improve upon.

magickware
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Re: Business Student with LSAT Questions

Postby magickware » Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:06 pm

Your diagnostic is useless, simply because you didn't keep strict time.

a) It is an o.k. score.
b) The LSAT is a learnable test, because it focuses on a single concept (logical reasoning), and has a set of definite things that it teaches.
c) I have no idea.
d) Reading comprehension, the one with the paragraphs, tend to be the hardest to raise your score in. That being said, if you are a solid reader and have spent much of your UG reading lots of shit, then RC shouldn't be bad in the first place. LG tends to be what kills people the most at the start, but only because they're unfamiliar with the structure and what it asks you to do. It is definitely the most learnable. LR should functionally be the hardest section, because it's demanding to do it all within 35 minutes.

You really need to do a PT under strict time if you want to gauge anything at all.

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Nova
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Re: Business Student with LSAT Questions

Postby Nova » Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:08 pm

SmokeyG wrote:a) Is that a good score?
b) Can one greatly improve ones LSAT score?
c) Will time kill me? It was more Section 2 where I slowed, I flew through the logic puzzles in Section 1, and Section 4 was easy on time because there were 5-7 question on each paragraph.
d) Which sections are considered the hardest?I had only miss 7 until the last section with paragraphs. In that section alone, I missed 6.

a. Its all relative
b. yes
c. no
d. the section with paragraphs

Daily_Double
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Re: Business Student with LSAT Questions

Postby Daily_Double » Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:13 pm

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Last edited by Daily_Double on Sun Sep 22, 2013 6:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

SmokeyG
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Re: Business Student with LSAT Questions

Postby SmokeyG » Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:46 pm

Thanks everyone, I really appreciate the tips and advice. To clarify, I had the most trouble with the RC questions. I just wanted to argue every one. Overall on the test, I missed 13 out of 100 questions. I'd like to cut that at least in half. Unfortunately, Logic Games were my favorites, and the ones that came to me most naturally. So I lose what seems to be easy improvement.

I'm going to take another test tomorrow and time it. I'll let you all know how I do. Final question, though. Are there many tests, or if I keep taking them will I use too many up? Some of my friends complained/cried that they were running out of MCATs when they still weren't ready, so I figured I check on LSATs.

Daily_Double
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Re: Business Student with LSAT Questions

Postby Daily_Double » Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:50 pm

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Last edited by Daily_Double on Sun Sep 22, 2013 6:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

magickware
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Re: Business Student with LSAT Questions

Postby magickware » Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:51 pm

There will be a total of 69 PTs once the June 2013 is released sometime next month.

But the first 30 or so of them are awfully old and may not be relevant to the recent tests.

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SteelPenguin
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Re: Business Student with LSAT Questions

Postby SteelPenguin » Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:55 pm

SmokeyG wrote:Thanks everyone, I really appreciate the tips and advice. To clarify, I had the most trouble with the RC questions. I just wanted to argue every one. Overall on the test, I missed 13 out of 100 questions. I'd like to cut that at least in half. Unfortunately, Logic Games were my favorites, and the ones that came to me most naturally. So I lose what seems to be easy improvement.

I'm going to take another test tomorrow and time it. I'll let you all know how I do. Final question, though. Are there many tests, or if I keep taking them will I use too many up? Some of my friends complained/cried that they were running out of MCATs when they still weren't ready, so I figured I check on LSATs.



As of today, there are only 72 released prep tests. Please do not waste them. Also, you'll need around a 3.75+ for HYS, so keep that GPA as high as possible.

SmokeyG
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Re: Business Student with LSAT Questions

Postby SmokeyG » Thu Jun 27, 2013 8:30 pm

Ok everyone, today I took a timed test, and I actually scored higher than the last test without time. My break down was as follows:

LR: -8/-4
CR: -3
LG: -3

Total Raw Score: 83 (out of 101)
Scaled Score: 167

I'm very encouraged by my improvement in CR. LG is my favorite section as usual, and all three mistakes were foolish. I think eventually I could get that section down to -1 or -0 consistently. I have found a new weakness, however, in the two Logical Reasoning sections. Some of those were BS! How is improvement in the LR sections? Difficult?

Is this a good score for my first timed test and second test ever? Do you think I could reach a 173 goal?

Finally, when you say there are 72 practice tests, are those official tests only? Or are they also counting tests in practice books?

Thanks guys!

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Nova
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Re: Business Student with LSAT Questions

Postby Nova » Thu Jun 27, 2013 8:39 pm

SmokeyG wrote:Is this a good score for my first timed test and second test ever?

You outscored 94% of test takers and havent even started studying. Wtf do you think?

SmokeyG
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Re: Business Student with LSAT Questions

Postby SmokeyG » Thu Jun 27, 2013 8:41 pm

Nova wrote:
SmokeyG wrote:Is this a good score for my first timed test and second test ever?

You outscored 94% of test takers and havent even started studying. Wtf do you think?


Sorry, I didn't know it was that high of a percentile. I think you may be overestimating my knowledge of the LSAT. I originally was going to take it 2 years out of school, but decided I should take it while my study skills are sharp. So I literally picked up a test prep book from an old friend and googled "Law School Forums".

I apologize if I sounded like a prat.

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SteelPenguin
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Re: Business Student with LSAT Questions

Postby SteelPenguin » Thu Jun 27, 2013 9:55 pm

SmokeyG wrote:Ok everyone, today I took a timed test, and I actually scored higher than the last test without time. My break down was as follows:

LR: -8/-4
CR: -3
LG: -3

Total Raw Score: 83 (out of 101)
Scaled Score: 167

I'm very encouraged by my improvement in CR. LG is my favorite section as usual, and all three mistakes were foolish. I think eventually I could get that section down to -1 or -0 consistently. I have found a new weakness, however, in the two Logical Reasoning sections. Some of those were BS! How is improvement in the LR sections? Difficult?

Is this a good score for my first timed test and second test ever? Do you think I could reach a 173 goal?

Finally, when you say there are 72 practice tests, are those official tests only? Or are they also counting tests in practice books?

Thanks guys!


All Oct, Dec, and June tests are released publicly. These make up PTs 1-68 and Superprep Tests A, B, and C. These are the only questions worth studying, and these are basically the only questions you will find in any good prep books. LR takes effort but is definitely improvable. This is a fantastic start and a 173 is definitely a possibility. People make jumps from the 150s to the 170s, so I think you're probably capable of scoring in the mid 170s if you study properly.

che3055
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Re: Business Student with LSAT Questions

Postby che3055 » Thu Jun 27, 2013 11:50 pm

SmokeyG wrote:Ok everyone, today I took a timed test, and I actually scored higher than the last test without time. My break down was as follows:

LR: -8/-4
CR: -3
LG: -3

Total Raw Score: 83 (out of 101)
Scaled Score: 167

I'm very encouraged by my improvement in CR. LG is my favorite section as usual, and all three mistakes were foolish. I think eventually I could get that section down to -1 or -0 consistently. I have found a new weakness, however, in the two Logical Reasoning sections. Some of those were BS! How is improvement in the LR sections? Difficult?

Is this a good score for my first timed test and second test ever? Do you think I could reach a 173 goal?

Finally, when you say there are 72 practice tests, are those official tests only? Or are they also counting tests in practice books?

Thanks guys!


First of all, the 72 practice tests that people are referring to are previously administered LSAT exams. Each time a new exam is given, for example, this past June, a while later, that same exact exam is released to the public in practice test form. You can buy these individually (for some, this is the only way to obtain them) or in books of 10 tests.

If by "tests in practice books" you are talking about books published by companies like McGraw Hill or some prep company like that, avoid at all costs. Often times books like this make their own exams, and the questions are of much lower quality than are actual LSAT questions. In a test as intricate as the LSAT, it is important to get a feel for actual questions so you can recognize actual patterns.

167 is a fantastic diagnostic score and you're on the path to a great score. Don't slack off, but you're already a leg up. Get your logic games to -0 consistently (very realistic), and it will also be very realistic to cut your LR wrongs in half. RC is the most difficult to improve upon, and also typically the most volatile and inconsistent, but -3 is pretty solid.

I'd recommend the Manhattan Books for LR and RC, both helped me a ton. I don't have experience using guides for LG, but the consensus is that Powerscore LG Bible is best.

RoaringMice
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Re: Business Student with LSAT Questions

Postby RoaringMice » Fri Jun 28, 2013 9:43 am

The practice tests in books like Princeton Review are fake tests. You need to do a timed, past LSAT. You need to see how you do with real LSAT questions.

SmokeyG
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Re: Business Student with LSAT Questions

Postby SmokeyG » Fri Jun 28, 2013 5:27 pm

Well everyone, since I had taken McGraw Hill tests, I decided they were inaccurate and to take an official LSAT. I took Test #7, timed it, and received a 170! I was pretty happy!

That best part is that I missed 4 in LG which I am assured is the easiest to improve on, and it was because I didn't have time for the last two questions. So I think I could reasonably reach my goal of getting my score up a few more points.

Thanks for al the help. I think I am going to start the study regimen from your posts.
Last edited by SmokeyG on Fri Jun 28, 2013 5:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

sparty99
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Re: Business Student with LSAT Questions

Postby sparty99 » Fri Jun 28, 2013 5:35 pm

FLAME

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mindarmed
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Re: Business Student with LSAT Questions

Postby mindarmed » Fri Jun 28, 2013 6:01 pm

Your trolling is 166

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JasonH
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Re: Business Student with LSAT Questions

Postby JasonH » Fri Jun 28, 2013 6:22 pm

"without time" pretty much means nothing. Each LSAT question is designed to be answered by the average joe, the key is doing them quickly. I dunno, maybe it should be comforting to get a 167 without time, but in my opinion that means nothing. You should be getting a 180 every time if your not timing it.

SmokeyG
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Re: Business Student with LSAT Questions

Postby SmokeyG » Fri Jun 28, 2013 6:57 pm

JasonH wrote:"without time" pretty much means nothing. Each LSAT question is designed to be answered by the average joe, the key is doing them quickly. I dunno, maybe it should be comforting to get a 167 without time, but in my opinion that means nothing. You should be getting a 180 every time if your not timing it.


A 180? That's a pretty lofty claim but I guess I get your point. If you keep reading, I ended up doing timed tests and actually improved on them (170 was the latest - my third attempt). I think I much better understand the LSAT after searching some other posts on here, and I am extremely happy with that score so early in the game and without studying at all yet.

Hopefully practice tests lateral nicely into the real thing.

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Balthy
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Re: Business Student with LSAT Questions

Postby Balthy » Fri Jun 28, 2013 7:05 pm

SmokeyG wrote:
JasonH wrote:"without time" pretty much means nothing. Each LSAT question is designed to be answered by the average joe, the key is doing them quickly. I dunno, maybe it should be comforting to get a 167 without time, but in my opinion that means nothing. You should be getting a 180 every time if your not timing it.


A 180? That's a pretty lofty claim but I guess I get your point. If you keep reading, I ended up doing timed tests and actually improved on them (170 was the latest - my third attempt). I think I much better understand the LSAT after searching some other posts on here, and I am extremely happy with that score so early in the game and without studying at all yet.

Hopefully practice tests lateral nicely into the real thing.



Yes, a 180 is very easy with no timing. It's unusual that you can pull off a 170 timed and are surprised by this claim.

SmokeyG
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Re: Business Student with LSAT Questions

Postby SmokeyG » Fri Jun 28, 2013 7:29 pm

superdingle2000 wrote:
SmokeyG wrote:
JasonH wrote:"without time" pretty much means nothing. Each LSAT question is designed to be answered by the average joe, the key is doing them quickly. I dunno, maybe it should be comforting to get a 167 without time, but in my opinion that means nothing. You should be getting a 180 every time if your not timing it.


A 180? That's a pretty lofty claim but I guess I get your point. If you keep reading, I ended up doing timed tests and actually improved on them (170 was the latest - my third attempt). I think I much better understand the LSAT after searching some other posts on here, and I am extremely happy with that score so early in the game and without studying at all yet.

Hopefully practice tests lateral nicely into the real thing.



Yes, a 180 is very easy with no timing. It's unusual that you can pull off a 170 timed and are surprised by this claim.

I think I'll always miss a few in CR and a few in LR. I guess that's just me. Oh well, I'm going to focus on improving my timed score and not worry about it. I'm decently happy with what I got, improving 4 points in three tests. About five more points to go and I will certainly be content!

sighsigh
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Re: Business Student with LSAT Questions

Postby sighsigh » Sat Jun 29, 2013 12:01 am

superdingle2000 wrote:Yes, a 180 is very easy with no timing.

I doubt even a top scorer getting 170+ timed will score 180 consistently untimed, since there's always ~2 questions in the newer RC with correct ACs that are ridiculously subtle, and sometimes there's an odd question in LR. I can see them going -0 in LG and usually LR though.

As you become more familiar with the test timing becomes much less of an obstacle. I believe that top scorers who get questions wrong timed would to a large degree have gotten those same questions wrong untimed. The gap between untimed and timed scores dramatically narrows as you practice.

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Balthy
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Re: Business Student with LSAT Questions

Postby Balthy » Sat Jun 29, 2013 1:22 am

SmokeyG wrote:
superdingle2000 wrote:
SmokeyG wrote:
JasonH wrote:"without time" pretty much means nothing. Each LSAT question is designed to be answered by the average joe, the key is doing them quickly. I dunno, maybe it should be comforting to get a 167 without time, but in my opinion that means nothing. You should be getting a 180 every time if your not timing it.


A 180? That's a pretty lofty claim but I guess I get your point. If you keep reading, I ended up doing timed tests and actually improved on them (170 was the latest - my third attempt). I think I much better understand the LSAT after searching some other posts on here, and I am extremely happy with that score so early in the game and without studying at all yet.

Hopefully practice tests lateral nicely into the real thing.



Yes, a 180 is very easy with no timing. It's unusual that you can pull off a 170 timed and are surprised by this claim.

I think I'll always miss a few in CR and a few in LR. I guess that's just me. Oh well, I'm going to focus on improving my timed score and not worry about it. I'm decently happy with what I got, improving 4 points in three tests. About five more points to go and I will certainly be content!


Of course you shouldn't worry, you're golden man (I hate you). Btw, why do you want to change careers? What's your ultimate goal?

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Balthy
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Re: Business Student with LSAT Questions

Postby Balthy » Sat Jun 29, 2013 1:26 am

sighsigh wrote:
superdingle2000 wrote:Yes, a 180 is very easy with no timing.

I doubt even a top scorer getting 170+ timed will score 180 consistently untimed, since there's always ~2 questions in the newer RC with correct ACs that are ridiculously subtle, and sometimes there's an odd question in LR. I can see them going -0 in LG and usually LR though.

As you become more familiar with the test timing becomes much less of an obstacle. I believe that top scorers who get questions wrong timed would to a large degree have gotten those same questions wrong untimed. The gap between untimed and timed scores dramatically narrows as you practice.



Maybe you're right (and I'm actually really glad to hear timing becomes less of an issue), but then again, you can usually miss 1-3 questions and still make a 180.




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