Law school vs med school admissions

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Dmini7
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Re: Law school vs med school admissions

Postby Dmini7 » Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:35 am

ლ(ಠ益ಠლ) wrote:
ManoftheHour wrote:Biology/Neurobio/cell bio are really useless majors in the real world. You have a lot of 2.8-3.4 GPA bio majors out of work. You'd also need at least a 30 on the MCAT if you have a 3.5 to have a chance of making it.

Yeah, but that's way better than maxing out a 160 with a 3.5 GPA.

Question: Do med schools calculate ALL college level courses like the LSAC or a specific subset (3000+level, premed courses, etc)?


All courses. The way a lot of people try to play the game is getting a major in history and philosophy of science(or a major of a similar name) while just doing the required pre-reqs to qualify for med school.

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ManoftheHour
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Re: Law school vs med school admissions

Postby ManoftheHour » Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:05 am

ლ(ಠ益ಠლ) wrote:
ManoftheHour wrote:Biology/Neurobio/cell bio are really useless majors in the real world. You have a lot of 2.8-3.4 GPA bio majors out of work. You'd also need at least a 30 on the MCAT if you have a 3.5 to have a chance of making it.

Yeah, but that's way better than maxing out a 160 with a 3.5 GPA.

Question: Do med schools calculate ALL college level courses like the LSAC or a specific subset (3000+level, premed courses, etc)?


Pre med. You can't completely bs your way out with a bunch of easy anthro classes. They have two separate GPAs: Your cumulative, and the premed science courses. Both are important. If you have a low cumulative, it's a red flag. If you have a 3.8 overal but a 2.7 in your sciences, that hurts you greatly. But yes, as an above poster put it, you can game your GPA by taking an easy major and taking the minimum required science courses. That's still pretty hard though. I believe you need a year each of general chem, bio, o chem, bio chem, and physics.

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RhymesLikeDimes
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Re: Law school vs med school admissions

Postby RhymesLikeDimes » Fri Jun 21, 2013 7:26 am

I've actually applied to med school, so I'll give my thoughts:

Medical school admissions are much less predictable. I got no-interviewed at 12 schools where my MCAT was significantly above all medians. My GPA wasn't fabulous (~3.60), but a lot of that was from a terrible first semester as a criminal justice major. My science GPA was ~3.75, and that was with legit pre-med coursework (none of the fancy orgo/biochem work-arounds that my school had in place for nutrition/dietetics majors). I really do feel like the undergrad you attend is significantly weighed in the MS process. I went to some backwoods SUNY that is best known for its Education/Music programs.

I guess it depends on your situation when it comes to a more holistic admissions process. If you went to some fancy undergrad, and have a nice bit of research experience/medically-related work, then MS admissions are going to be easier for you. If you are more like me in that your softs are very mediocre, but your GPA and/or LSAT are terrific, then LS is the place to apply.

As for MCAT vs. LSAT: Both are very challenging tests that require an awful lot of preparation. I did find the LSAT far more enjoyable to study for. The MCAT felt like some massive final exam, whereas the LSAT felt like an elaborate IQ test. Prepping for the LSAT is also much more rewarding; your scores can increase quickly, and tools like LSN let you know just what your improvement is doing for your admissions chances. IMO, it is WAY easier to do exceptionally well on the LSAT. The overall pool of test-takers is incredibly weak. If you are taking the MCAT, you have survived 3+ years of pre-med coursework and STILL want to go to med school. 80+% of people taking the LSAT at any given time have no business doing so, and would have been weeded out by a pre-law equivalent to Orgo.

That said, getting into a law school in the bottom T14 or below is probably easier than getting into just about any MD program. A lot of med schools are fiercely regional with who they will and won't accept. Your home state is going to rule out about half of all med schools before you even apply. If you plan your coursework around maximizing your GPA, a 3.8 can be an absolute breeze for a pre-law. That is much more difficult for pre-med students to do.

At the top, it's probably pretty even. Getting into YS is quite similar to getting into Harvard/Hopkins. Even with perfect numbers, you can get shot down. A substantial percentage of people above both medians will not be accepted. Schools like HCC are going to be roughly equivalent to the higher ranking non-regional (consider OOS candidates equal to in-state) med schools. MVPB are probably on par with the majority of remaining med schools.

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NoodleyOne
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Re: Law school vs med school admissions

Postby NoodleyOne » Fri Jun 21, 2013 8:08 am

This is a silly topic. Doogie Houser was like 13 when he got his MD. I've never heard of a 13 year old getting a JD.

Stinson
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Re: Law school vs med school admissions

Postby Stinson » Fri Jun 21, 2013 9:06 am

RhymesLikeDimes wrote:
I really do feel like the undergrad you attend is significantly weighed in the MS process. I went to some backwoods SUNY that is best known for its Education/Music programs.



I forgot to mention this in my post; this is quite true in my experience as well, more at some schools than others. My fiance and I both went to a well-respected public college, but nothing fancy. She had very high numbers (I think it was 3.95/3.95/40 MCAT, which is 99.8 percentile) and good extras (lots of volunteering and experience in medicine, as both her parents were doctors) and didn't even get interviews from a lot of the Ivy league schools - Yale, Columbia, Harvard - though she did at Duke, Chicago, and some other biggies. Her friend who went to a very prestigious private college had lower numbers and fewer extras, but snagged interviews at Yale and Harvard.

Some of the schools are much more numbers focused than others. Part of the reason there is there is really no iron law of USNews rankings where you absolutely must take the top scores/GPA's you can get. It's not the med schools aren't ranked, it's that (1) those rankings are a lot less consequential for the lives of most of the graduates and (2) the rankings mostly wind up being based on prestige and the research produced by the schools, not by the incoming MCAT scores of the students. Research bears almost nothing on the lives of the majority of students who have no interest in medical research; what matters to students is the ability of the school to place students in the specialties they want (although there are of course students who don't want to be specialists). This ability is somewhat correlated with the prestige of the school, and indeed the really competitive specialties usually require involvement in research beforehand, which is easier to get at major research schools. But there are plenty of schools that are not fancy research schools that place a very high percentage of students into desirable specialties, so regardless of prestige those schools are very good options for the students.

The undergrad prestige thing, honestly, is part of the wider fact that med school admissions (I mean top med school admissions, not regular public school med admissions) are a lot tougher for students of lower income backgrounds than are law school admissions. Anyone can get good grades, and it doesn't matter where. The LSAT can be learned by getting like 30 practice tests for $50. Do both of those and bam, you've got at least everywhere outside Yale and probably Stanford.

Med school, though, basically sets before you a bunch of tasks that are possible for anyone but way, way easier if you come from an upper middle class background. Shadowing opportunities? Much easier if you have relatives who are doctors. All the forced volunteering? Much easier if you don't have to work concurrently. MCAT? My fiance was scoring high 20s before a $2000 Kaplan course. And of course there's the prestigious undergrad, and socioeconomic diversity is not a serious goal of most top UG's. (I think the Crimson said last year that financial aid records suggested about 70% of Harvard UG's came from families in the top 10-20% income wise. Some, like Dartmouth, take this stuff more seriously.) Oh, and there's the fact that applying to med school - if you're applying to the prestigious top med schools - costs literally thousands of dollars. You wind up attending interviews on two or three week notice, paying thousands of dollars for last-minute plane tickets, hotels, cabs, application fees, etc.

Of course the flip side of all this is, as I said, unless you want to be a researcher or just hunger for DAT PREFTIGE, prestige of medical schools is not terribly important to the students attending them.

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Re: Law school vs med school admissions

Postby laww » Fri Jun 21, 2013 10:48 am

The one thing I dislike about law school admissions is that it seems as if people who chose to study difficult majors tend to get left out....

Even though my UG GPA was 'only' 3.2, it was higher than the average for computing sciences majors. The average GPA for CS was about 3.0.

I personally don't think CS was 'hard' but in 300/400 level courses we had calc 2/3 mixed into computing concepts which made many projects ridiculously hard. The tests were not so bad as long as you studied but the projects were the real killers. Getting a B/B+ was considered good since we needed a C or better to move on. Very few people got A's. Thankfully, I scored A's in 3 of the 5 most difficult courses taught at my school. However, no law school is going to think that is significant because my final gpa isn't a godly 4.0.

I have friends who studied IT... it was a complete joke (according to them) compared to the courses equivalent to what we studied in CS. For example, their 'equivalent' networking class consisted of learning how to hook up a router whereas we had to write our own router as a project. The average GPA for IT was a 3.6...

Thankfully I can prep for the LSAT and hopefully kill it in October. I'm not going to get into a top school but as long as I'm in at the best T14 I can get into with my stats I'll be happy.

I never really had a problem with standardized tests because most of them are learnable. However the MCAT requires you to know science and that is something you have to learn in school... so it seems like you need to know your science AND be able to take a standardized test.

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Re: Law school vs med school admissions

Postby 09042014 » Fri Jun 21, 2013 11:11 am

laww wrote:The one thing I dislike about law school admissions is that it seems as if people who chose to study difficult majors tend to get left out....

Even though my UG GPA was 'only' 3.2, it was higher than the average for computing sciences majors. The average GPA for CS was about 3.0.

I personally don't think CS was 'hard' but in 300/400 level courses we had calc 2/3 mixed into computing concepts which made many projects ridiculously hard. The tests were not so bad as long as you studied but the projects were the real killers. Getting a B/B+ was considered good since we needed a C or better to move on. Very few people got A's. Thankfully, I scored A's in 3 of the 5 most difficult courses taught at my school. However, no law school is going to think that is significant because my final gpa isn't a godly 4.0.

I have friends who studied IT... it was a complete joke (according to them) compared to the courses equivalent to what we studied in CS. For example, their 'equivalent' networking class consisted of learning how to hook up a router whereas we had to write our own router as a project. The average GPA for IT was a 3.6...

Thankfully I can prep for the LSAT and hopefully kill it in October. I'm not going to get into a top school but as long as I'm in at the best T14 I can get into with my stats I'll be happy.

I never really had a problem with standardized tests because most of them are learnable. However the MCAT requires you to know science and that is something you have to learn in school... so it seems like you need to know your science AND be able to take a standardized test.


I got a 2.8 in EE and I'm at a t14. No real MD school would ever consider me no matter what I'd do. MAYBE if I did a fancy post-bacc at a good school, and 40'd my MCAT i'd be able to slide into a less selective med school.

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the_pakalypse
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Re: Law school vs med school admissions

Postby the_pakalypse » Fri Jun 21, 2013 10:14 pm

RhymesLikeDimes wrote:I guess it depends on your situation when it comes to a more holistic admissions process. If you went to some fancy undergrad, and have a nice bit of research experience/medically-related work, then MS admissions are going to be easier for you. If you are more like me in that your softs are very mediocre, but your GPA and/or LSAT are terrific, then LS is the place to apply.

As for MCAT vs. LSAT: Both are very challenging tests that require an awful lot of preparation. I did find the LSAT far more enjoyable to study for. The MCAT felt like some massive final exam, whereas the LSAT felt like an elaborate IQ test. Prepping for the LSAT is also much more rewarding; your scores can increase quickly, and tools like LSN let you know just what your improvement is doing for your admissions chances. IMO, it is WAY easier to do exceptionally well on the LSAT. The overall pool of test-takers is incredibly weak. If you are taking the MCAT, you have survived 3+ years of pre-med coursework and STILL want to go to med school. 80+% of people taking the LSAT at any given time have no business doing so, and would have been weeded out by a pre-law equivalent to Orgo.


Exactly. This is the part most people don't realize -- the pools of applicants are completely different and, frankly, much weaker for law school.

Cooleytruthsayer
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Re: Law school vs med school admissions

Postby Cooleytruthsayer » Mon Sep 09, 2013 8:29 pm

Moment of truth:

How many of you guys are wishing you had gone MD instead by this point?

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ManoftheHour
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Re: Law school vs med school admissions

Postby ManoftheHour » Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:06 pm

Cooleytruthsayer wrote:Moment of truth:

How many of you guys are wishing you had gone MD instead by this point?


Maybe business, but not MD for sure. No interest in medicine, not fond of the lifestyle, and I get depressed being even near a hospital.

Kimikho
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Re: Law school vs med school admissions

Postby Kimikho » Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:31 pm

Cooleytruthsayer wrote:Moment of truth:

How many of you guys are wishing you had gone MD instead by this point?


The fact that they had to legislate an 80 hour work week for interns makes me pretty happy about my decision.

My dad is a doctor. He has said some of the crap he went through during his internship/residency was borderline torture. During part of it, he lived in the same dorm I lived in a few years ago, but he had no memory of living there, that's how sleep deprived/overworked he was. Think of that the next time you let an intern or new resident treat you.

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ManoftheHour
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Re: Law school vs med school admissions

Postby ManoftheHour » Tue Sep 10, 2013 4:19 pm

scoobers wrote:
Cooleytruthsayer wrote:Moment of truth:

How many of you guys are wishing you had gone MD instead by this point?


The fact that they had to legislate an 80 hour work week for interns makes me pretty happy about my decision.

My dad is a doctor. He has said some of the crap he went through during his internship/residency was borderline torture. During part of it, he lived in the same dorm I lived in a few years ago, but he had no memory of living there, that's how sleep deprived/overworked he was. Think of that the next time you let an intern or new resident treat you.


Job security is great, but the life of a doctor is rough. You have to have a passion for it to do it. Very few career paths are as demanding. If you don't see work/career as being an important/main part of your life, then medicine is definitely not the way to go.

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haus
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Re: Law school vs med school admissions

Postby haus » Tue Sep 10, 2013 4:24 pm

NoodleyOne wrote:This is a silly topic. Doogie Houser was like 13 when he got his MD. I've never heard of a 13 year old getting a JD.

But think of the motovation from the point of a 13 year old boy. Go to medical school and have an opportunity to see nude women or go to study law and learn about torts.

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ManoftheHour
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Re: Law school vs med school admissions

Postby ManoftheHour » Tue Sep 10, 2013 4:26 pm

haus wrote:
NoodleyOne wrote:This is a silly topic. Doogie Houser was like 13 when he got his MD. I've never heard of a 13 year old getting a JD.

But think of the motovation from the point of a 13 year old boy. Go to medical school and have an opportunity to see nude women or go to study law and learn about torts.


Most of them are old and past their prime...

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wiz
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Re: Law school vs med school admissions

Postby wiz » Tue Sep 10, 2013 4:54 pm

Cooleytruthsayer wrote:Just out of curiosity has anyone here taken both exams and/or tried getting into both? If so, what is your opinion on all of this?


I ask since I know people at my school who claim that they were accepted into UOM Medical but picked Cooley law instead due to it being their "true calling". I have not proof that they are not telling the truth, but it sure doesn't seem right to me.


I've taken the MCAT and the LSAT. I actually found the MCAT to be more straightforward because I had already taken chem/bio/physics/orgo in undergrad. But I also didn't prep very well for the LSAT (didn't find TLS till after I was already in law school).

I do know that med schools have significantly higher GPA floors than law schools and that interviews matter much more. Also, as others have said, mediocre med schools are much harder to get into than mediocre law schools. I've always thought that the barrier to entry for medicine occurs during the application process to med school, while the barrier to entry for law doesn't occur until OCI. The med school model is also better because there aren't so many TTT schools.

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modernista
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Re: Law school vs med school admissions

Postby modernista » Wed Sep 11, 2013 3:46 pm

Cooleytruthsayer wrote:Moment of truth:

How many of you guys are wishing you had gone MD instead by this point?


Sometimes, I wish I had. Not to toot my own horn but I would have made a great pediatrician.

KingofSplitters55
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Re: Law school vs med school admissions

Postby KingofSplitters55 » Thu Sep 12, 2013 4:56 pm

To the OP, it's typical pre-med arrogance. Let the pre-meds go back to sulking in their academic misery in their study-caves buried deep in the ground.

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wiz
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Re: Law school vs med school admissions

Postby wiz » Thu Sep 12, 2013 5:15 pm

modernista wrote:
Cooleytruthsayer wrote:Moment of truth:

How many of you guys are wishing you had gone MD instead by this point?


Sometimes, I wish I had. Not to toot my own horn but I would have made a great pediatrician.


Based on your tar, I'm gonna have to agree with you.




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