Law school vs med school admissions

osubucknut
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Law school vs med school admissions

Postby osubucknut » Thu Jun 20, 2013 6:47 pm

I overheard a group of premed students talking about how much more difficult it is to get into a top med school over a top law school. They seemed convinced they could get into a top law school if they decided to take the lsat. Now I'm curious is it harder to get into a top law school or a top med school?

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TheMostDangerousLG
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Re: Law school vs med school admissions

Postby TheMostDangerousLG » Thu Jun 20, 2013 6:50 pm

osubucknut wrote:I overheard a group of premed students talking about how much more difficult it is to get into a top med school over a top law school. They seemed convinced they could get into a top law school if they decided to take the lsat. Now I'm curious is it harder to get into a top law school or a top med school?


This is complete speculation, but I'd imagine it's harder to get into a top med school. If you're capable of getting into a top med school, you're also likely to be capable of getting into a top law school, but the reverse doesn't hold true.

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SteelPenguin
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Re: Law school vs med school admissions

Postby SteelPenguin » Thu Jun 20, 2013 6:55 pm

TheMostDangerousLG wrote:
osubucknut wrote:I overheard a group of premed students talking about how much more difficult it is to get into a top med school over a top law school. They seemed convinced they could get into a top law school if they decided to take the lsat. Now I'm curious is it harder to get into a top law school or a top med school?


This is complete speculation, but I'd imagine it's harder to get into a top med school. If you're capable of getting into a top med school, you're also likely to be capable of getting into a top law school, but the reverse doesn't hold true.


Is that because med school is much more holistic?

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TheMostDangerousLG
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Re: Law school vs med school admissions

Postby TheMostDangerousLG » Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:00 pm

SteelPenguin wrote:
TheMostDangerousLG wrote:
osubucknut wrote:I overheard a group of premed students talking about how much more difficult it is to get into a top med school over a top law school. They seemed convinced they could get into a top law school if they decided to take the lsat. Now I'm curious is it harder to get into a top law school or a top med school?


This is complete speculation, but I'd imagine it's harder to get into a top med school. If you're capable of getting into a top med school, you're also likely to be capable of getting into a top law school, but the reverse doesn't hold true.


Is that because med school is much more holistic?


I'm just thinking in terms of the MCAT versus the LSAT. The MCAT is a rough test (or so I hear). I think it's also harder to keep up a good GPA when you're premed, whereas an underwater basket weaving major with a 4.0 stands a solid chance at awesome law schools.

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Toby Ziegler
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Re: Law school vs med school admissions

Postby Toby Ziegler » Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:03 pm

TheMostDangerousLG wrote:
osubucknut wrote:I overheard a group of premed students talking about how much more difficult it is to get into a top med school over a top law school. They seemed convinced they could get into a top law school if they decided to take the lsat. Now I'm curious is it harder to get into a top law school or a top med school?


This is complete speculation, but I'd imagine it's harder to get into a top med school. If you're capable of getting into a top med school, you're also likely to be capable of getting into a top law school, but the reverse doesn't hold true.


This.

But the point is comparing med school to law school, is like comparing apples to oranges. I would most certainly not be able to hang in a 400 level organic chemistry class with those pre med guys. And I would like to think that my analytical reasoning abilities and my capacity to develop abstract concepts into applicable principles would blow their ability to do those same things out of the water.

That being said, I think the MCat is nowhere near as learnable as the LSAT is, it really takes a specific undergrad degree to do well on the test.
Also I think that Med students face the same black box trying to get into Johns Hopkins as we do trying to get into Yale.

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Dmini7
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Re: Law school vs med school admissions

Postby Dmini7 » Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:06 pm

I think it is hard to really compare the two. Although I agree Premed students undergraduate education is much more difficult than the standard pre-law students majors, I think the two test are completely different and hard to gauge which is more difficult. If you were to look at it purely at what is included on the test, I think it would be fair to say MCAT is more difficult, but at the same time, everything on the MCAT is actually information you learned throughout your undergraduate education. With that said, I think the fact that pre-med students are required to do so much extra-curriculars and gain experience in undergraduate to even be competitive for mediocre medical schools would make it more difficult. Then again, becoming a doctor is a much safer venture than becoming a lawyer, so I guess it all works out.

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FKASunny
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Re: Law school vs med school admissions

Postby FKASunny » Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:08 pm

Getting into a good law school is just about planning and follow through.

1) Choose to major in a subject where you know you can get straight As
2) Study for a very learnable standardized test.

Done. So yes, I'd say getting into med school is more difficult.

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Re: Law school vs med school admissions

Postby Cooleytruthsayer » Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:13 pm

There is no doubt that it is harder to get into medical school than law school as a general blanket statement.

Any type of undergrad vs specific class requirements
ok for classes to be stale vs having to be so many years old
only the overall gpa mattering vs even the specific class gpa mattering
plus most would agree that the MCAT is harder than the LSAT
(a street smart person could do "ok" on the LSAT with a few weeks prep but not the same idea with the MCAT)


All that being said:
Anytime that you have more people applying for a specific seat somewhere than there are seats to give and everyone else is just as qualified if not more qualified for it, then it will be hard to get said seat. In that part alone I'd say it is equal trying to get into Harvard Law or Harvard Medicine. (assuming that in either scenario you show up fully qualified)

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Re: Law school vs med school admissions

Postby Cooleytruthsayer » Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:31 pm

Just out of curiosity has anyone here taken both exams and/or tried getting into both? If so, what is your opinion on all of this?


I ask since I know people at my school who claim that they were accepted into UOM Medical but picked Cooley law instead due to it being their "true calling". I have not proof that they are not telling the truth, but it sure doesn't seem right to me.

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Re: Law school vs med school admissions

Postby 052220151 » Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:32 pm

Cooleytruthsayer wrote:Just out of curiosity has anyone here taken both exams and/or tried getting into both? If so, what is your opinion on all of this?


I ask since I know people at my school who claim that they were accepted into UOM Medical but picked Cooley law instead due to it being their "true calling". I have not proof that they are not telling the truth, but it sure doesn't seem right to me.


If they are going to Cooley, they are dumb idiots and probably are lying to you about med school.

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Re: Law school vs med school admissions

Postby Dmini7 » Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:36 pm

deputydog wrote:
Cooleytruthsayer wrote:Just out of curiosity has anyone here taken both exams and/or tried getting into both? If so, what is your opinion on all of this?


I ask since I know people at my school who claim that they were accepted into UOM Medical but picked Cooley law instead due to it being their "true calling". I have not proof that they are not telling the truth, but it sure doesn't seem right to me.


If they are going to Cooley, they are dumb idiots and probably are lying to you about med school.

Definitely a lie is Mich is a solid med school. I was pre-med all throughout UG. I did not end up taking the MCAT though so I do not fit your criteria. If two individuals were looking at the tests, I will say the MCAT is a much more frightening test judging it by its contents. But like I said before, everyone who ends up taking the MCAT is at least partially familiar with the information inside.

On a side note: If a person scored well enough to get into UOM med school I would assume they are intelligent enough to know Cooley law is a scam.

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Re: Law school vs med school admissions

Postby Cooleytruthsayer » Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:43 pm

deputydog wrote:
Cooleytruthsayer wrote:Just out of curiosity has anyone here taken both exams and/or tried getting into both? If so, what is your opinion on all of this?


I ask since I know people at my school who claim that they were accepted into UOM Medical but picked Cooley law instead due to it being their "true calling". I have not proof that they are not telling the truth, but it sure doesn't seem right to me.


If they are going to Cooley, they are dumb idiots and probably are lying to you about med school.


Dumb-idiots huh, didn't know there was any other kind.

Do you know anyone who you believe honestly did well on the MCAT but just "chose" lawschool? I would think that anyone who took the time to take the prereqs for medical school, did well on them, and then did ok on the MCAT would only be taking the LSAT at all as a safety . I can't imagine that anyone who took the time to do all of that would be ok with just tossing a coin to figure it out.

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Re: Law school vs med school admissions

Postby Cooleytruthsayer » Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:46 pm

Dmini7 wrote:
deputydog wrote:
Cooleytruthsayer wrote:Just out of curiosity has anyone here taken both exams and/or tried getting into both? If so, what is your opinion on all of this?


I ask since I know people at my school who claim that they were accepted into UOM Medical but picked Cooley law instead due to it being their "true calling". I have not proof that they are not telling the truth, but it sure doesn't seem right to me.


If they are going to Cooley, they are dumb idiots and probably are lying to you about med school.

Definitely a lie is Mich is a solid med school. I was pre-med all throughout UG. I did not end up taking the MCAT though so I do not fit your criteria. If two individuals were looking at the tests, I will say the MCAT is a much more frightening test judging it by its contents. But like I said before, everyone who ends up taking the MCAT is at least partially familiar with the information inside.

On a side note: If a person scored well enough to get into UOM med school I would assume they are intelligent enough to know Cooley law is a scam.

I guess I could see someone having a "moment of zen" and wanting to walk away form medicine (for some deeply personal reason) but I guess what I would have to believe that for them to do that and end up at Cooley it would require for someone to able to ace the MCAT but bomb the LSAT. (or in some other way do good enough for medical school but not good enough to get into any place better than Cooley) I don't know if I could believe that possible.

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Re: Law school vs med school admissions

Postby 09042014 » Thu Jun 20, 2013 8:04 pm

They weigh different factors differently. So it's not really tougher, but different. Many who get into top law schools couldn't get into a top med school, and many in top med schools can't get into a top law school.

Law schools heavily factor in LSAT, to an almost absurd degree.

The average MCAT Verbal score at Harvard Med School is only the 85th percentile. The Harvard average LSAT is the 99%. There are people at Harvard Med who couldn't even get into a T1 law school.

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Re: Law school vs med school admissions

Postby FKASunny » Thu Jun 20, 2013 8:12 pm

Desert Fox wrote:They weigh different factors differently. So it's not really tougher, but different. Many who get into top law schools couldn't get into a top med school, and many in top med schools can't get into a top law school.

Law schools heavily factor in LSAT, to an almost absurd degree.

The average MCAT Verbal score at Harvard Med School is only the 85th percentile. The Harvard average LSAT is the 99%. There are people at Harvard Med who couldn't even get into a T1 law school.

Yeah, but getting 99th percentile on the LSAT, I would think, isn't as difficult as getting 99th percentile on the MCAT just due to the self-selection of each test. A lot of people go into the LSAT with little or no preparation whereas MCAT test takers have at least been exposed to the materials in class.

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Re: Law school vs med school admissions

Postby Cooleytruthsayer » Thu Jun 20, 2013 8:22 pm

ლ(ಠ益ಠლ) wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:They weigh different factors differently. So it's not really tougher, but different. Many who get into top law schools couldn't get into a top med school, and many in top med schools can't get into a top law school.

Law schools heavily factor in LSAT, to an almost absurd degree.

The average MCAT Verbal score at Harvard Med School is only the 85th percentile. The Harvard average LSAT is the 99%. There are people at Harvard Med who couldn't even get into a T1 law school.

Yeah, but getting 99th percentile on the LSAT, I would think, isn't as difficult as getting 99th percentile on the MCAT just due to the self-selection of each test. A lot of people go into the LSAT with little or no preparation whereas MCAT test takers have at least been exposed to the materials in class.

That combined with the prereqs and the fact that one is common sense stuff (lsat) and the other is more specific.

I have a hard time believing that ANYONE who gets into a top medical school (or even a medium ranked one) would not be able to get into a top law school if they took an lsat prep course.

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Re: Law school vs med school admissions

Postby 09042014 » Thu Jun 20, 2013 8:24 pm

ლ(ಠ益ಠლ) wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:They weigh different factors differently. So it's not really tougher, but different. Many who get into top law schools couldn't get into a top med school, and many in top med schools can't get into a top law school.

Law schools heavily factor in LSAT, to an almost absurd degree.

The average MCAT Verbal score at Harvard Med School is only the 85th percentile. The Harvard average LSAT is the 99%. There are people at Harvard Med who couldn't even get into a T1 law school.

Yeah, but getting 99th percentile on the LSAT, I would think, isn't as difficult as getting 99th percentile on the MCAT just due to the self-selection of each test. A lot of people go into the LSAT with little or no preparation whereas MCAT test takers have at least been exposed to the materials in class.


Verbal MCAT is kinda like the LSAT RC but easier. The material isn't anything they'd be exposed to in classes.

In a rough fashion you can sort of look at how bio majors do on the LSAT, they do better than average, but it's not huge.

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Re: Law school vs med school admissions

Postby Cooleytruthsayer » Thu Jun 20, 2013 8:30 pm

Well they have the joint MD-JD option out there I guess, so anyone who has trouble making the choice due to being too awesome in both areas (and there must be enough out there to justify the programs) they can always pick that I guess.

I wonder how long until Cooley offers that option............... :shock:

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Re: Law school vs med school admissions

Postby 09042014 » Thu Jun 20, 2013 8:30 pm

Here is an interesting anecdote:

https://www.med.illinois.edu/MSP/Students/MDJD.php

In recent years, what are the average LSAT, MCAT and GPAs for the MSP entering classes?
The LSAT scores have been above the 90th percentile, the average MCAT has been a 32, and the average GPA a 3.5. (Please keep in mind that these are averages.)


That's 90%ile LSAT and 87%ish MCAT in the same population of people


So there is a bit of a premium for LSAT, but it isn't huge at the top end.

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Re: Law school vs med school admissions

Postby totoro » Thu Jun 20, 2013 8:35 pm

Getting into a top med school is definitely harder at least in the ways we can compare it. Many of the admission rates are in the single-digits, whereas even the best law schools accept over 10% of applicants. Second it is much more holistic than the law school process - there are multiple rounds of essays, in-person interviews, and they put a lot of weight into recommendation letters. Also just taking a look at the average GPA's of top med schools, they are about equivalent to law school GPA's, except that most of these people are science majors (whereas any 4.0 can get into law school). I am not discounting the aptitude of law students, but top med school admissions is much harder for most people.

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Re: Law school vs med school admissions

Postby Stinson » Thu Jun 20, 2013 8:52 pm

I haven't done both but I did law school and my fiance did medical school admissions at the same time. Law school is way, way more straightforward. Med school admissions are enormously more opaque and, honestly, far more arbitrary. (If you talk to med students, they have admissions stories full of weirdo admission combos, like getting into Johns Hopkins but rejected from less prestigious schools.) Dazzling scores won't let you waltz in anywhere you want, and there's a lot more stuff you have to do - getting in without shadowing/medical-related community service is tough, and of course there are many courses that are non-negotiable.

MCAT and LSAT are really different tests. To do well on the LSAT you have to get used to taking the test and get really good at it. To do well on the MCAT you have to memorize an epic amount of information, plus do some practice with the test.

In the end both processes sort of fit the respective schools. You know, very transparently, exactly what you need to do to snag a top law school, and that's fair because you need to snag a top law school to have a good shot at a good job. Getting a top med school is more arbitrary and more focused on at least some factors out of your control. But if you don't wind up at a top med school you're pretty set anyway. First, there aren't really many MD positions that can be considered bad, so the bottom floor is pretty high relative to law. (I'd take primary care in the Ozarks over doc review, personally.)

Second, the competition for desirable (at least for some people) residency positions isn't decided from the start to the same extent that law school determines your ability to snag Biglaw/PI/Clerkship. You have to do well on the Step 1 exam (big comprehensive exam after M2) and get good grades in rotations to have a shot at the snazzy specialties. It's easier from the top schools, but not a ton easier. Many residencies have fairly consistent ranges of Step 1 scores, regardless of the school in question. And getting a fancy specialty - opthamology, orthopedic surgery, anesthesiology, radiology, etc. - is probably more attainable from a middle of the pack med school than Biglaw/clerkship is from a law school outside the T20.

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Re: Law school vs med school admissions

Postby rftdd888 » Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:11 pm

Stinson wrote:I haven't done both but I did law school and my fiance did medical school admissions at the same time. Law school is way, way more straightforward. Med school admissions are enormously more opaque and, honestly, far more arbitrary. (If you talk to med students, they have admissions stories full of weirdo admission combos, like getting into Johns Hopkins but rejected from less prestigious schools.) Dazzling scores won't let you waltz in anywhere you want, and there's a lot more stuff you have to do - getting in without shadowing/medical-related community service is tough, and of course there are many courses that are non-negotiable.

MCAT and LSAT are really different tests. To do well on the LSAT you have to get used to taking the test and get really good at it. To do well on the MCAT you have to memorize an epic amount of information, plus do some practice with the test.

In the end both processes sort of fit the respective schools. You know, very transparently, exactly what you need to do to snag a top law school, and that's fair because you need to snag a top law school to have a good shot at a good job. Getting a top med school is more arbitrary and more focused on at least some factors out of your control. But if you don't wind up at a top med school you're pretty set anyway. First, there aren't really many MD positions that can be considered bad, so the bottom floor is pretty high relative to law. (I'd take primary care in the Ozarks over doc review, personally.)

Second, the competition for desirable (at least for some people) residency positions isn't decided from the start to the same extent that law school determines your ability to snag Biglaw/PI/Clerkship. You have to do well on the Step 1 exam (big comprehensive exam after M2) and get good grades in rotations to have a shot at the snazzy specialties. It's easier from the top schools, but not a ton easier. Many residencies have fairly consistent ranges of Step 1 scores, regardless of the school in question. And getting a fancy specialty - opthamology, orthopedic surgery, anesthesiology, radiology, etc. - is probably more attainable from a middle of the pack med school than Biglaw/clerkship is from a law school outside the T20.


this is a good reply in the thread.

I have a close friend going through med-school application process right now, as well. He's looking for a local, regional school that will take him because his GPA is subpar. Frankly he probably won't kill it on the MCAT to have a shot at even a midrange Med school because of the GPA being so low, but he's taking the shots. he probably doesn't have the experience he needs on his resume, either, so I think it's a long shot. I'm in the process of applying for LS too, and am in better shape in terms of grades and practice tests.

I'd hate to be in that game, the med school game. If you're destined to be a doctor you gotta do it, but the UG curriculum, admissions test, and actual schooling are SO not up my alley. I would say that law school is significantly easier. Even if they have an advantage in having "knowledge-based" information on the MCAT that they've already learned and prepared for, we've all learned and prepared for anything that's coming up on the LSAT, too.

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Re: Law school vs med school admissions

Postby FKASunny » Fri Jun 21, 2013 12:49 am

Cooleytruthsayer wrote:Well they have the joint MD-JD option

This sounds like one of the most miserable ways to waste your the government's money.

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Re: Law school vs med school admissions

Postby ManoftheHour » Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:03 am

Not sure about difficulty, but the law school and med school process isn't all too different. Med school is a very hard numbers game as well. Also, if you fuck up, you're essentially screwed because you're stuck with a useless major. The only thing is, the med school process doesn't let you ruin your life with debt (unless you go to the Caribbean). Within the US, there are NO TTT med schools. I love that model. The ABA should take note of that. Make it so that even with a high GPA, if you can't get at least a 160, you shouldn't even be considered.

Biology/Neurobio/cell bio are really useless majors in the real world. You have a lot of 2.8-3.4 GPA bio majors out of work. You'd also need at least a 30 on the MCAT if you have a 3.5 to have a chance of making it.

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Re: Law school vs med school admissions

Postby FKASunny » Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:09 am

ManoftheHour wrote:Biology/Neurobio/cell bio are really useless majors in the real world. You have a lot of 2.8-3.4 GPA bio majors out of work. You'd also need at least a 30 on the MCAT if you have a 3.5 to have a chance of making it.

Yeah, but that's way better than maxing out a 160 with a 3.5 GPA.

Question: Do med schools calculate ALL college level courses like the LSAC or a specific subset (3000+level, premed courses, etc)?




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