The struggle continues...

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okaygo
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The struggle continues...

Postby okaygo » Wed Jun 12, 2013 8:21 pm

I need advice as I will probably be an October retaker. I'm fortunate in that my biggest problem is LG, and although I don't exactly know what I can possibly do to become good at them, I'm choosing to believe the mantra that it is the most 'learnable' section. I'm giving myself the entire month of July to focus on LG. Problem is, people in my life (such as my mother), don't think that I can continue to improve as I've 'studied for five months already'. I just would really like some reassurance from my TLSers that a retake can definitely produce better scores...

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Br3v
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Re: The struggle continues...

Postby Br3v » Wed Jun 12, 2013 8:23 pm

okaygo wrote:I need advice as I will probably be an October retaker. I'm fortunate in that my biggest problem is LG, and although I don't exactly know what I can possibly do to become good at them, I'm choosing to believe the mantra that it is the most 'learnable' section. I'm giving myself the entire month of July to focus on LG. Problem is, people in my life (such as my mother), don't think that I can continue to improve as I've 'studied for five months already'. I just would really like some reassurance from my TLSers that a retake can definitely produce better scores...


Where are you scoring on LG now?

What have you been using to study LG?

How many full times PTs have you taken?

Where are you scoring on those PTs?

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jas1503
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Re: The struggle continues...

Postby jas1503 » Wed Jun 12, 2013 8:24 pm

You should learn the games by type. Do several dozen of each and it will help you understand what the setup is suppose the be from the start. Once you master recognizing the type of setup that's needed, inferences become much easier.

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okaygo
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Re: The struggle continues...

Postby okaygo » Wed Jun 12, 2013 8:35 pm

I'm not at home where all of my LSAT stuff is to answer your questions directly but I've done 15+ PTs that range from 157 to my highest of 165. My median appears to be at a 161, and it's very usual for me to go as many as -10 on the games.

I have Manhattan LG, and Powerscore LGB and the Cambridge bundles I believe from test 38 - 60. I tend to have no problem setting up diagrams. But once I get to questions things start going wrong.

Reframe
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Re: The struggle continues...

Postby Reframe » Wed Jun 12, 2013 8:36 pm

okaygo wrote:I'm not at home where all of my LSAT stuff is to answer your questions directly but I've done 15+ PTs that range from 157 to my highest of 165. My median appears to be at a 161, and it's very usual for me to go as many as -10 on the games.

I have Manhattan LG, and Powerscore LGB and the Cambridge bundles I believe from test 38 - 60. I tend to have no problem setting up diagrams. But once I get to questions things start going wrong.


Any particular pattern to where and how things start to go wrong?

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okaygo
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Re: The struggle continues...

Postby okaygo » Wed Jun 12, 2013 8:49 pm

I tackle must be true questions awfully. And I think I waste time always tryna to work out inferences.

Reframe
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Re: The struggle continues...

Postby Reframe » Wed Jun 12, 2013 8:50 pm

okaygo wrote:I tackle must be true questions awfully. And I think I waste time always tryna to work out inferences.


Where do you take time to try to work out inferences?

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Br3v
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Re: The struggle continues...

Postby Br3v » Wed Jun 12, 2013 8:50 pm

okaygo wrote:I'm not at home where all of my LSAT stuff is to answer your questions directly but I've done 15+ PTs that range from 157 to my highest of 165. My median appears to be at a 161, and it's very usual for me to go as many as -10 on the games.

I have Manhattan LG, and Powerscore LGB and the Cambridge bundles I believe from test 38 - 60. I tend to have no problem setting up diagrams. But once I get to questions things start going wrong.


Read both of the LG books again, look seriously and learn your weak points, then you need to increase your speed so you don't feel rushed and flustered during times sessions as I feel that you may if I'm not mistaken?

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crestor
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Re: The struggle continues...

Postby crestor » Wed Jun 12, 2013 8:57 pm

i am in the same boat OP. must be true is my weakness. this June test MBT LG raped me.

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okaygo
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Re: The struggle continues...

Postby okaygo » Wed Jun 12, 2013 8:57 pm

Well what I tend to do is make a mini diagram for each option for each question and I just think it takes me far too long.

So would you all recommend I start back at Chapter One and then work through it by type? And not move on until I master the type? Only problem is I really hated LGB, and I'd prefer to use Manhattan. Is that too detrimental?

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okaygo
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Re: The struggle continues...

Postby okaygo » Wed Jun 12, 2013 8:59 pm

And when I practice should I do so untimed?

Reframe
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Re: The struggle continues...

Postby Reframe » Wed Jun 12, 2013 9:03 pm

okaygo wrote:Well what I tend to do is make a mini diagram for each option for each question and I just think it takes me far too long.

So would you all recommend I start back at Chapter One and then work through it by type? And not move on until I master the type? Only problem is I really hated LGB, and I'd prefer to use Manhattan. Is that too detrimental?


The Manhattan material is better.

Looking at more or less any question, you should be able to determine a "favorite" answer almost all the time. If your skills are honed enough, this means you should test only the correct option something like 85%-90% of the time. If you are testing every option, it's a sign that you are not using the right kinds of instincts to develop a perspective on the answer choices. This is often due to worrying too much about the mechanics of symbolization and diagramming, not having a deep understanding of what the specific question types are asking, or simply not being confident enough in your fluency with the test.

If you'd be interested, I'd love to get you involved with my experimental tutoring stream (free for now). I posted a bit about it over at viewtopic.php?f=6&t=211112. Even if not, feel free to ask me any other questions in this thread.

I generally don't recommend much untimed practice on the games. You could just work out all the options by rote - heck, some crazy companies even suggest this, don't they? - and you wouldn't be learning a thing.

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bombaysippin
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Re: The struggle continues...

Postby bombaysippin » Wed Jun 12, 2013 9:04 pm

okaygo wrote:I need advice as I will probably be an October retaker. I'm fortunate in that my biggest problem is LG, and although I don't exactly know what I can possibly do to become good at them, I'm choosing to believe the mantra that it is the most 'learnable' section. I'm giving myself the entire month of July to focus on LG. Problem is, people in my life (such as my mother), don't think that I can continue to improve as I've 'studied for five months already'. I just would really like some reassurance from my TLSers that a retake can definitely produce better scores...


Have you tried pithy pikes guide? I was terrible at LG too, but followed his guide and went from like -10 to consistent -0 on PTs (with the occasional -1 from misreading or whatever).

Soon enough once you do enough games and just keep repeating what seems like really similar set ups for games (though of course different conditions), the "type" of game really won't matter.

Best of luck!

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okaygo
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Re: The struggle continues...

Postby okaygo » Wed Jun 12, 2013 9:19 pm

Bajam wrote:
okaygo wrote:I need advice as I will probably be an October retaker. I'm fortunate in that my biggest problem is LG, and although I don't exactly know what I can possibly do to become good at them, I'm choosing to believe the mantra that it is the most 'learnable' section. I'm giving myself the entire month of July to focus on LG. Problem is, people in my life (such as my mother), don't think that I can continue to improve as I've 'studied for five months already'. I just would really like some reassurance from my TLSers that a retake can definitely produce better scores...


Have you tried pithy pikes guide? I was terrible at LG too, but followed his guide and went from like -10 to consistent -0 on PTs (with the occasional -1 from misreading or whatever).

Soon enough once you do enough games and just keep repeating what seems like really similar set ups for games (though of course different conditions), the "type" of game really won't matter.

Best of luck!


I forgot about pithypikes guide! Thanks!

magickware
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Re: The struggle continues...

Postby magickware » Wed Jun 12, 2013 9:35 pm

1) Approach LG on a progression, if you will. Linear or the MLSAT equivalent, then the grouping games, then the unbalanced grouping games, and so on and so forth. Virtually all LG besides the random ones fall onto this progression, and it is best to approach LG in this matter imo. Basically, there's absolutely no chance of you doing well on an unbalanced grouping game if you cannot do linear games. There's just absolutely no chance.

So get yourself good on linear games, then move onto games with more stuff to work with, and etc. Both PS and MLSAT organize this LG in this manner, and so you should be fine with either. Just get the packets from Cambridge LSAT and drill each chapter and its game type to death. Then move onto the next one when you're good with the previous one. Since you have a lot of time, I strongly advise you to do every game in every packet about 3-4 times at least. And look at the 7sage guides.

Games will be cake by the end of this. Aim to do 5-6 games a day if they're your weak spot. Repetition is key with games if you suck at them.

Daily_Double
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Re: The struggle continues...

Postby Daily_Double » Wed Jun 12, 2013 9:40 pm

I'm going to gloss over the common things: do the books, I read that you have them but have you done them? I recommend BPLG and MLG. Do them, it should take about two weeks of your life. Then drill. That's it.

Next you have to start visualizing the games. Just look at a game and ask what's going on here? Are they ordering things, grouping things, or both? You should also understand the nature of the sections. By this I mean that the first game is cake, always. I usually use only my master diagram for the first game. I do more for the second and third games. Next, I recommend diagramming conditional questions, both MBT and CBT questions. Why? Because when you add an element, such as if X runs third, or if X is in the same group as Y, then that triggers the other rules. So for every conditional question, I'll diagram it and find out, what MUST be true. That step helps me cross of the wrong answers in CBT questions and helps me find the answers in MBT questions.

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sublime
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Re: The struggle continues...

Postby sublime » Wed Jun 12, 2013 9:41 pm

..

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Tekrul
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Re: The struggle continues...

Postby Tekrul » Wed Jun 12, 2013 9:54 pm

Take the lack of belief people have you in and turn it into fuel for the fire, you seem like you have the drive to do what it takes and the LG is absolutely learnable. This was my worst section (basically the entirety of the points I lost on my diagnostic were here and it was a lot) - did the powerscore lg and powerscore lg workbook - didn't miss a single one on my actual. If you learn the types of games and hone diagramming skill (you've got plenty of time to do it), you can crush this section.

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nyjets2090
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Re: The struggle continues...

Postby nyjets2090 » Wed Jun 12, 2013 9:55 pm

I was a -11 on my first take on LGs...pretty sure I went -0 or at worst -1 on June '13. Blueprint book was no small help.

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sublime
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Re: The struggle continues...

Postby sublime » Wed Jun 12, 2013 10:01 pm

..

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okaygo
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Re: The struggle continues...

Postby okaygo » Wed Jun 12, 2013 10:10 pm

Thank you all so much! This is really inspirational. I think my biggest concern is not having enough time to match my passion. Working full time and weekends and such. But I really WANT to do this. So where there's a will there is a way.

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okaygo
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Re: The struggle continues...

Postby okaygo » Wed Jun 12, 2013 10:16 pm

sublime wrote:
Tekrul wrote:Take the lack of belief people have you in and turn it into fuel for the fire, you seem like you have the drive to do what it takes and the LG is absolutely learnable. This was my worst section (basically the entirety of the points I lost on my diagnostic were here and it was a lot) - did the powerscore lg and powerscore lg workbook - didn't miss a single one on my actual. If you learn the types of games and hone diagramming skill (you've got plenty of time to do it), you can crush this section.



http://i.imgur.com/zEd7392.jpg


And this definitely got instagrammed.

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sublime
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Re: The struggle continues...

Postby sublime » Wed Jun 12, 2013 10:20 pm

..

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Jeffort
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Re: The struggle continues...

Postby Jeffort » Wed Jun 12, 2013 10:57 pm

okaygo wrote:Well what I tend to do is make a mini diagram for each option for each question and I just think it takes me far too long.


It sounds like you are not using any of the good question type specific strategies to solve questions efficiently and instead are just applying the one size fits all brute force method of making a hypo for each answer choice to test it out non-strategy.

You need to pay attention to the various different analytical approaches/methods you can apply to each of the question types to arrive at the correct answer choices more efficiently and accurately than brute forcing everything, which is super time consuming and typically not the best available strategy. Doing brute force hypos is basically the strategy of last resort when you see no better way to single out the correct answer. This is a big part of doing LGs that most people with major LG trouble are not skilled with and a big part of the reason for missing many per section and/or running out of time. Once people get familiar with the various different strategic approaches for solving questions and when to apply them is when the big breakthrough to near perfect performance happens.

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okaygo
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Re: The struggle continues...

Postby okaygo » Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:04 pm

Jeffort wrote:
okaygo wrote:Well what I tend to do is make a mini diagram for each option for each question and I just think it takes me far too long.


It sounds like you are not using any of the good question type specific strategies to solve questions efficiently and instead are just applying the one size fits all brute force method of making a hypo for each answer choice to test it out non-strategy.

You need to pay attention to the various different analytical approaches/methods you can apply to each of the question types to arrive at the correct answer choices more efficiently and accurately than brute forcing everything, which is super time consuming and typically not the best available strategy. Doing brute force hypos is basically the strategy of last resort when you see no better way to single out the correct answer. This is a big part of doing LGs that most people with major LG trouble are not skilled with and a big part of the reason for missing many per section and/or running out of time. Once people get familiar with the various different strategic approaches for solving questions and when to apply them is when the big breakthrough to near perfect performance happens.



THIS!!! This is the PROBLEM!!!! I have no strategy for each question. After I diagram my life gets stressful. Does Manhattan LG help with that?




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