Bad advice?

User avatar
mehiguess
Posts: 97
Joined: Sat May 11, 2013 9:23 am

Bad advice?

Postby mehiguess » Thu May 23, 2013 8:10 pm

I sincerely struggle with the logic games section. I'm consistently -13 to -17 per section. Terrible I know. Anyways, I had a friend who took the LSAT a few years ago tell me to use my time to focus hard on 3 of the sections and if I do not have time for the last one to just christmas tree it. The funny thing is it works...to a point. Obviously the most sound advice would be to push back the test date and master the games. While that is always an option, I found I'm scoring 3 to 7 points higher with this method rather than trying to "rush" through the games and stress out. I'm in no way saying I'm walking into the LSAT using this method, but any thoughts?

Edit: I'm reading the logic games bible and am using the kaplan drilling book. While the repetition and reinforcement certainly helps, I have trouble seeing inferences and am taking way too much time.

User avatar
ManoftheHour
Posts: 3401
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:03 pm

Re: Bad advice?

Postby ManoftheHour » Thu May 23, 2013 8:41 pm

mehiguess wrote:I sincerely struggle with the logic games section. I'm consistently -13 to -17 per section. Terrible I know. Anyways, I had a friend who took the LSAT a few years ago tell me to use my time to focus hard on 3 of the sections and if I do not have time for the last one to just christmas tree it. The funny thing is it works...to a point. Obviously the most sound advice would be to push back the test date and master the games. While that is always an option, I found I'm scoring 3 to 7 points higher with this method rather than trying to "rush" through the games and stress out. I'm in no way saying I'm walking into the LSAT using this method, but any thoughts?

Edit: I'm reading the logic games bible and am using the kaplan drilling book. While the repetition and reinforcement certainly helps, I have trouble seeing inferences and am taking way too much time.


Manhattan LSAT. It'll change your life.

<--- -9 on LG on an actual LSAT. Grouping games killed me. Now I can get most of them in 5 minutes or less. It's not about repetition. It's about strategy. Once you internalize your strategies, be flexible. The games should start clicking.

http://www.amazon.com/Manhattan-Logic-G ... ogic+games

Daily_Double
Posts: 1035
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:45 pm

Re: Bad advice?

Postby Daily_Double » Thu May 23, 2013 8:47 pm

If your question is "Is Christmas-treeing LG good advice," the answer is not no, but God no.

Use BPLG, the LGB, and MLG. You shouldn't be having these issues after that.

User avatar
mehiguess
Posts: 97
Joined: Sat May 11, 2013 9:23 am

Re: Bad advice?

Postby mehiguess » Thu May 23, 2013 8:56 pm

ManoftheHour wrote:
mehiguess wrote:I sincerely struggle with the logic games section. I'm consistently -13 to -17 per section. Terrible I know. Anyways, I had a friend who took the LSAT a few years ago tell me to use my time to focus hard on 3 of the sections and if I do not have time for the last one to just christmas tree it. The funny thing is it works...to a point. Obviously the most sound advice would be to push back the test date and master the games. While that is always an option, I found I'm scoring 3 to 7 points higher with this method rather than trying to "rush" through the games and stress out. I'm in no way saying I'm walking into the LSAT using this method, but any thoughts?

Edit: I'm reading the logic games bible and am using the kaplan drilling book. While the repetition and reinforcement certainly helps, I have trouble seeing inferences and am taking way too much time.


Manhattan LSAT. It'll change your life.



<--- -9 on LG on an actual LSAT. Grouping games killed me. Now I can get most of them in 5 minutes or less. It's not about repetition. It's about strategy. Once you internalize your strategies, be flexible. The games should start clicking.

http://www.amazon.com/Manhattan-Logic-G ... ogic+games



Ordered

User avatar
ManoftheHour
Posts: 3401
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:03 pm

Re: Bad advice?

Postby ManoftheHour » Thu May 23, 2013 9:05 pm

mehiguess wrote:
ManoftheHour wrote:
mehiguess wrote:I sincerely struggle with the logic games section. I'm consistently -13 to -17 per section. Terrible I know. Anyways, I had a friend who took the LSAT a few years ago tell me to use my time to focus hard on 3 of the sections and if I do not have time for the last one to just christmas tree it. The funny thing is it works...to a point. Obviously the most sound advice would be to push back the test date and master the games. While that is always an option, I found I'm scoring 3 to 7 points higher with this method rather than trying to "rush" through the games and stress out. I'm in no way saying I'm walking into the LSAT using this method, but any thoughts?

Edit: I'm reading the logic games bible and am using the kaplan drilling book. While the repetition and reinforcement certainly helps, I have trouble seeing inferences and am taking way too much time.


Manhattan LSAT. It'll change your life.



<--- -9 on LG on an actual LSAT. Grouping games killed me. Now I can get most of them in 5 minutes or less. It's not about repetition. It's about strategy. Once you internalize your strategies, be flexible. The games should start clicking.

http://www.amazon.com/Manhattan-Logic-G ... ogic+games



Ordered


You won't regret it. It's especially useful to those of us who just can't naturally "see" the inferences. The way Manhattan sets up problems makes it pretty easy for me to make the inferences that I need.

User avatar
Clearly
Posts: 4165
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 4:09 pm

Re: Bad advice?

Postby Clearly » Thu May 23, 2013 9:05 pm

I'm actually going to disagree with the pack here. It depends on your goals, but focusing on only 3 games instead of rushing through all four is NOT always a bad strategy. Not everyone (even on TLS) is a 170 student, and for those in the 150s it can actually make sense to pick up the points this way. I'm not saying that person shouldn't strive to get good enough to do all four games, but until they have that ability, focusing on the first three often increases someones score...which is ultimately the point.

User avatar
mehiguess
Posts: 97
Joined: Sat May 11, 2013 9:23 am

Re: Bad advice?

Postby mehiguess » Thu May 23, 2013 10:16 pm

Clearlynotstefan wrote:I'm actually going to disagree with the pack here. It depends on your goals, but focusing on only 3 games instead of rushing through all four is NOT always a bad strategy. Not everyone (even on TLS) is a 170 student, and for those in the 150s it can actually make sense to pick up the points this way. I'm not saying that person shouldn't strive to get good enough to do all four games, but until they have that ability, focusing on the first three often increases someones score...which is ultimately the point.

The logic games are what's keeping me from cracking 160. I totally hear what you are saying which validates my conundrum. I'm gonna try my luck with this book and if I come across an especially difficult or unfamilair game on June 10th, well I guess I have a decision to make...

User avatar
RhymesLikeDimes
Posts: 403
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:58 pm

Re: Bad advice?

Postby RhymesLikeDimes » Thu May 23, 2013 10:27 pm

If you don't even have the motivation to work on games, you should not be going to law school.

User avatar
Clearly
Posts: 4165
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 4:09 pm

Re: Bad advice?

Postby Clearly » Thu May 23, 2013 10:38 pm

RhymesLikeDimes wrote:If you don't even have the motivation to work on games, you should not be going to law school.

It's not always a matter of motivation. I agree games are able to be learned. I jumped 25 points from my diagnostic to my final, so I know it can be done. That said, anyone who's had any experience tutoring knows that not everyone is going to break 170, no matter how hard they try. The vast majority of LSAT takers will do worse than -4 in games, and for many people attacking three games is often a reasonable suggestion. It's very possible to break 165 and only do 3 games.

I'd highly recommend Velocity or Manhattan for games, and I'm sure you can make improvements, maybe even go -0, games are not impossible to master; but attack 3 is not inherently bad advice for everyone.

User avatar
mlansky
Posts: 69
Joined: Thu Apr 11, 2013 1:50 pm

Re: Bad advice?

Postby mlansky » Thu May 23, 2013 11:18 pm

A couple questions, OP -

1) When are you taking the test?

2) When did you start studying LG?

3) How much time have you spent, how many games have you done(rough estimate)?

rambleon65
Posts: 185
Joined: Mon May 13, 2013 2:05 pm

Re: Bad advice?

Postby rambleon65 » Wed Jun 05, 2013 1:51 am

7Sage explanations. Look it up. It's free.

I think a big part of LG is how much time to spend on inferences and how much time to spend on the actual questions. I think 7Sage does a good job of showing you when to stop with the inferences and hit the questions. (for the record, no, i have no dog in promoting 7Sage)

Also, using previously accepted answers to eliminate answers will drastically shorten your time and raise the possibility of guessing something right (if you need to).

User avatar
MKX
Posts: 146
Joined: Tue Mar 26, 2013 7:54 pm

Re: Bad advice?

Postby MKX » Wed Jun 05, 2013 2:44 am

No terrible plan. You should be able to get -0s to -2s (although it SHOULD be 0s...) on LGs.

User avatar
Nova
Posts: 9116
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2012 8:55 pm

Re: Bad advice?

Postby Nova » Wed Jun 05, 2013 2:48 am

Logic games are 100% learnable. Just keep at it and you wont need that strategy.

User avatar
Nova
Posts: 9116
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2012 8:55 pm

Re: Bad advice?

Postby Nova » Wed Jun 05, 2013 2:50 am

mehiguess wrote:The logic games are what's keeping me from cracking 160. I totally hear what you are saying which validates my conundrum. I'm gonna try my luck with this book and if I come across an especially difficult or unfamilair game on June 10th, well I guess I have a decision to make...

Hope you are already planning an October retake.

kiyoku
Posts: 136
Joined: Sat May 11, 2013 2:25 am

Re: Bad advice?

Postby kiyoku » Wed Jun 05, 2013 7:25 am

Everything is learnable. I believe you need to have this mindset to do well.

Getting that many questions wrong must mean that you're making careless errors and that your approach to most questions are wrong. As mentioned above, the Manhattan is helping me.

I think the most important part here is that when people tell you to drill, they're not telling you to do thousands of questions mindlessly. I think this is inefficient and that there isn't too much material out there for you to learn so passively.
Find out one weakness at a time and commit to your improvement.

kiyoku
Posts: 136
Joined: Sat May 11, 2013 2:25 am

Re: Bad advice?

Postby kiyoku » Wed Jun 05, 2013 7:38 am

One more thing:

Sometimes I don't like to say that a certain book "does a good job teaching me," because it makes learning sound a bit too passive. Great learning happens for me when I'm actively trying to learn something. Actively pushing through struggles and addressing weaknesses. For that matter I think athletes like Michael Jordan and Tiger Woods have the best competitive mindset.

The book guides you. The book begs you to think differently. It's your job to make the connections and push your brain until you've made those connections perfectly.

The fact that there's even a physiological change within the brain that results from actively trying to push your brain to learn (the same way there'd be change in muscle mass when you eat a certain way and work out a certain way), is the most encouraging thing that I think of while I study. Depending on how much you demand of your brain to perform a certain exercise, your brain will branch out the right synapses while you sleep. In the end you'll have brain that's mapped out all the connections necessary for an LSAT.

But this should make you think about it. "Depending on how much you demand of your brain to perform a certain exercise..." What exercise are you performing when you continue to employ the wrong strategies for some of the games? You're only solidifying a strategy that will never be fast enough to get -0. So you need to muster the courage to have a new mindset, and find the right attacking methods.

Push your brain. Do it every day. And as science is starting to prove, get your sleep. This is when your brain defrags and expands the synapses, to make those important connections that you'll need for test day.

Good luck!

User avatar
wtrc
Posts: 2057
Joined: Mon May 30, 2011 9:37 pm

Re: Bad advice?

Postby wtrc » Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:31 am

You average -15 a section, and that's a killer, as you are aware.

If you can complete 3 sections with -1 total, you still have a 4th, of about 6 questions. Let's say you can get to the easy first question, and get that right. So you are left with -6 for the section. You guess and get 1 or 2 right. So you lose 4.5 on the section. That actually isn't awful.

Having said that, LG is learnable, and you CAN get that down to 0 or 1 wrong per section. Could be the difference between a 170 and 173 or 174, which is huge. I see the focus on 3 strategy as a good first step, but there's really no need to take the LSAT until you are fairly confident you can get nearly perfect on LG.

Ende
Posts: 54
Joined: Mon Feb 15, 2010 2:54 pm

Re: Bad advice?

Postby Ende » Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:43 pm

rambleon65 wrote:7Sage explanations. Look it up. It's free.


+1 (exactly what I was thinking)

Nova wrote:Logic games are 100% learnable.


+1


What worked for me was a combination of a few things: The LSAT blog 3 month study guide, and the free youtube videos from 7Sage, and a ton of practice exams to work with. I believe my inference skills just came naturally with time by consistently doing them, regardless of type.

From my experience, experimenting with different strategies was a waste of time because I didn't have the BASIC fundamentals down. I honestly feel if you get those fundamentals (i.e. what type of game it is, how to set it up, what inferences can be made, chaining rules, etc), then everything else, including speed will naturally get better. How long it takes solely depends on how bad you want it, and at what cost.

You got this!!!

User avatar
mehiguess
Posts: 97
Joined: Sat May 11, 2013 9:23 am

Re: Bad advice?

Postby mehiguess » Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:39 am

Epic advice, countless thanks to you all. Today I drilled LG and found that slowing down and working out the diagrams and inferences critically was an immense help. I'm feeling more confident as the days go by. 7sage is godsend btw. Slowing down and critically thinking are going a long way in setting up diagrams and attacking questions. Once again, thanks for the advice. :D

User avatar
Jeffort
Posts: 1896
Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2008 4:43 pm

Re: Bad advice?

Postby Jeffort » Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:21 am

mehiguess wrote:Epic advice, countless thanks to you all. Today I drilled LG and found that slowing down and working out the diagrams and inferences critically was an immense help. I'm feeling more confident as the days go by. 7sage is godsend btw. Slowing down and critically thinking are going a long way in setting up diagrams and attacking questions. Once again, thanks for the advice. :D


Your experience is a perfect example of why many good LSAT teachers, especially when talking about LGs, often say 'slow down to speed up'. It works on games because the questions become much easier and are able to be solved in less time with a better understanding of the game, rules and available inferences.

People that rush through the set-up process right into the questions typically have much more trouble and spend a lot more time trying to solve questions than people that take the time to make at least a decent set-up with the rules and most of the major deductions. You might even find that you do have time to do all four games with accuracy if you manage your time well to spend adequate time understanding a game before diving into the questions blindly like most people do under time pressure.

User avatar
mehiguess
Posts: 97
Joined: Sat May 11, 2013 9:23 am

Re: Bad advice?

Postby mehiguess » Thu Jun 06, 2013 9:11 pm

Jeffort wrote:
mehiguess wrote:Epic advice, countless thanks to you all. Today I drilled LG and found that slowing down and working out the diagrams and inferences critically was an immense help. I'm feeling more confident as the days go by. 7sage is godsend btw. Slowing down and critically thinking are going a long way in setting up diagrams and attacking questions. Once again, thanks for the advice. :D


Your experience is a perfect example of why many good LSAT teachers, especially when talking about LGs, often say 'slow down to speed up'. It works on games because the questions become much easier and are able to be solved in less time with a better understanding of the game, rules and available inferences.

People that rush through the set-up process right into the questions typically have much more trouble and spend a lot more time trying to solve questions than people that take the time to make at least a decent set-up with the rules and most of the major deductions. You might even find that you do have time to do all four games with accuracy if you manage your time well to spend adequate time understanding a game before diving into the questions blindly like most people do under time pressure.


Drilled some more LG today and slowed way down, watched a ton of 7sage videos regarding those problems and discovered how critical a good set up is. Underfunded games are becoming more bearable when I take the time to find the inferences. Slowing down HAS been key.

User avatar
Jeffort
Posts: 1896
Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2008 4:43 pm

Re: Bad advice?

Postby Jeffort » Thu Jun 06, 2013 10:18 pm

congrats man! keep up the good pace and let us know how things continue to go. :D

User avatar
mehiguess
Posts: 97
Joined: Sat May 11, 2013 9:23 am

Re: Bad advice?

Postby mehiguess » Thu Jun 06, 2013 10:28 pm

Jeffort wrote:congrats man! keep up the good pace and let us know how things continue to go. :D


If it's cool, I'll PM you after the test and give ya an assessment on how I think I did.




Return to “LSAT Prep and Discussion Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: rk42 and 3 guests