Question for people who do LR sections 2x.........

MissJenna
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Question for people who do LR sections 2x.........

Postby MissJenna » Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:52 am

I just did 1 LR (June 2008) section timed. After I was finished.......I scored it & got what I expected I would.........a 6/26.

After that, I went back to all the questions I got wrong (w/out looking at the correct answer of course) and re-did the questions untimed. I got a 15/26. Granted....I know that's not great but I had another post on this forum about the LR section where I stated that all I usually get on this section is 6 or 7 correct so 15/26 is good for me.

Every time I re-do a section (both untimed & even timed) a second time around......I ALWAYS get tons more questions correct. I don't understand why this is happening. This has been going on for the longest time ever. I always seem to go w/my 2nd answer choice the 2nd time around or something along those lines. :cry: :oops:

cynthiad
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Re: Question for people who do LR sections 2x.........

Postby cynthiad » Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:58 am

Most LR questions have three obviously wrong answer, the right answer, and a trick answer that seems right. If you eliminate the trick answer, the question becomes much easier.

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Typhoon24
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Re: Question for people who do LR sections 2x.........

Postby Typhoon24 » Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:05 am

Jesus! First of all, there are two things you're doing that are generally looked at as wrong:

1. Using relatively recent lSATs for drilling/practice. These tests (prep test 40+) should be attacked after you have a good understanding as to how to successfully tackle individual questions.

2. Doing timed sections before sufficient prep. Judging from your results, I presume that you are still premature in your understanding of the LSAT. This test requires you to drastically change the way you think to that of a purely logical robot. My advice before you do another timed section is to devote a while to reading AND APPLYING the manhattan/powerscore books and then drilling individual logical reasoning/reading/games questions using older test material (think 2003 and before.)

Don't be disheartened by your performance and push forward. Also, don't convince yourself that 15/26 is something satisfactory--it's 23+/26 or bust! You can do it.

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Typhoon24
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Re: Question for people who do LR sections 2x.........

Postby Typhoon24 » Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:10 am

To actually answer your question, you're probably getting more right because you are more familiar with each stimulus and the answer choice and are spending less time trying to read and understand and more time trying to find the right answer.

MissJenna
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Re: Question for people who do LR sections 2x.........

Postby MissJenna » Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:52 pm

Typhoon24 wrote:To actually answer your question, you're probably getting more right because you are more familiar with each stimulus and the answer choice and are spending less time trying to read and understand and more time trying to find the right answer.


But I guess what I just don't know what to do is how to go over this a 2nd time around? I mean I see that I'm getting a lot more correct when I re-do it a 2nd time but it's like okay....that's nice....what's next? How do I fix this "problem" so I can more right the 1st time around?

che3055
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Re: Question for people who do LR sections 2x.........

Postby che3055 » Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:19 pm

1. Manhattan LR Guide from cover to cover.

2. When you re-do sections, give it some time. After I do a LR, I briefly check which questions I got wrong. I thoroughly erase all markings pertaining to that question that I made on the page so that I won't be able to sneak any insights as to what I did the first time. Then, by waiting a week, or two, or three (really, the longer the better), I'm not really able to remember what I thought or what answer I picked on the first run through. The key is to make yourself as unbiased as possible.

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Teflon_Don
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Re: Question for people who do LR sections 2x.........

Postby Teflon_Don » Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:34 pm

MissJenna wrote:
Typhoon24 wrote:To actually answer your question, you're probably getting more right because you are more familiar with each stimulus and the answer choice and are spending less time trying to read and understand and more time trying to find the right answer.


But I guess what I just don't know what to do is how to go over this a 2nd time around? I mean I see that I'm getting a lot more correct when I re-do it a 2nd time but it's like okay....that's nice....what's next? How do I fix this "problem" so I can more right the 1st time around?

I used to go over all the questions that I didn't feel 100% confident about, even if I got them right. Look up why each answer is definitely incorrect and why the correct answer is 100% correct. Then think to yourself, what would have triggered me to see that the correct answer was fairly obvious? Did you focus on the wrong stuff? Miss a subtle shift? Focus on what would have made you 100% know the correct answer

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Teflon_Don
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Re: Question for people who do LR sections 2x.........

Postby Teflon_Don » Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:35 pm

Also, understanding the LSATs use of "some", none, not all, etc is really crucial

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RhymesLikeDimes
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Re: Question for people who do LR sections 2x.........

Postby RhymesLikeDimes » Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:58 pm

How are you grading them without looking at the correct answers? Regardless, familiarity with the question goes a long way. The time element is also a major factor on LR. Without it, most people could get < -2 per. The very fact that you now know that you're answer to that question was wrong automatically eliminates an answer choice (should be one of the two best answer choices, but at -20....). Reviewing the questions you got wrong with the correct answer in front of you is way more valuable then simply retaking the section. Go through your thought process, where you screwed up, why your answer is wrong, and why the correct answer is right.

6/26 indicates that you have absolutely no grasp of what you need to be doing on each question. You need to pick up an LR guide (the LRB would be my recommendation), and read it word-for-word, cover-to-cover before you even think about wasting anymore LR sections.

MissJenna
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Re: Question for people who do LR sections 2x.........

Postby MissJenna » Thu Apr 11, 2013 9:52 am

RhymesLikeDimes wrote:How are you grading them without looking at the correct answers? Regardless, familiarity with the question goes a long way. The time element is also a major factor on LR. Without it, most people could get < -2 per. The very fact that you now know that you're answer to that question was wrong automatically eliminates an answer choice (should be one of the two best answer choices, but at -20....). Reviewing the questions you got wrong with the correct answer in front of you is way more valuable then simply retaking the section. Go through your thought process, where you screwed up, why your answer is wrong, and why the correct answer is right.

6/26 indicates that you have absolutely no grasp of what you need to be doing on each question. You need to pick up an LR guide (the LRB would be my recommendation), and read it word-for-word, cover-to-cover before you even think about wasting anymore LR sections.


When I go to correct it a 2nd time, I put a little mark next to each question that I got wrong and then when I'm done "correcting" the section,.....I re-do the questions so I never see the correct answer.

What exactly should I do between now and June 9th? How should I go about this section? I am not looking to get both entire LR sections correct (though that would be nice). I will be fine w/a 15/26 or whatever. What exactly do I need to do? I have cried so much over this section that one wouldn't believe it. This section is just not clicking for me.

:| :oops: :( :shock: :?

MissJenna
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Re: Question for people who do LR sections 2x.........

Postby MissJenna » Thu Apr 11, 2013 9:54 am

Teflon_Don wrote:
MissJenna wrote:
Typhoon24 wrote:To actually answer your question, you're probably getting more right because you are more familiar with each stimulus and the answer choice and are spending less time trying to read and understand and more time trying to find the right answer.


But I guess what I just don't know what to do is how to go over this a 2nd time around? I mean I see that I'm getting a lot more correct when I re-do it a 2nd time but it's like okay....that's nice....what's next? How do I fix this "problem" so I can more right the 1st time around?

I used to go over all the questions that I didn't feel 100% confident about, even if I got them right. Look up why each answer is definitely incorrect and why the correct answer is 100% correct. Then think to yourself, what would have triggered me to see that the correct answer was fairly obvious? Did you focus on the wrong stuff? Miss a subtle shift? Focus on what would have made you 100% know the correct answer


That's just it.......I do all that. After I review the explanations for the questions, I understand what they're saying like 98% of the time. But why am I CONTINUING to make the same mistakes over and over and over again??? This is what is driving me insane.

MissJenna
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Re: Question for people who do LR sections 2x.........

Postby MissJenna » Thu Apr 11, 2013 9:57 am

che3055 wrote:1. Manhattan LR Guide from cover to cover.

2. When you re-do sections, give it some time. After I do a LR, I briefly check which questions I got wrong. I thoroughly erase all markings pertaining to that question that I made on the page so that I won't be able to sneak any insights as to what I did the first time. Then, by waiting a week, or two, or three (really, the longer the better), I'm not really able to remember what I thought or what answer I picked on the first run through. The key is to make yourself as unbiased as possible.


It seems like every single person I know and on this form has improved this section even by a little. I don't get why I'm not getting it. I have read the PS LRB. I have read Kaplan's LR book too. I did read Manhattan's book too and I really didn't like it. I mean I'll definitely read it again.

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Typhoon24
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Re: Question for people who do LR sections 2x.........

Postby Typhoon24 » Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:02 am

MissJenna wrote:
che3055 wrote:1. Manhattan LR Guide from cover to cover.

2. When you re-do sections, give it some time. After I do a LR, I briefly check which questions I got wrong. I thoroughly erase all markings pertaining to that question that I made on the page so that I won't be able to sneak any insights as to what I did the first time. Then, by waiting a week, or two, or three (really, the longer the better), I'm not really able to remember what I thought or what answer I picked on the first run through. The key is to make yourself as unbiased as possible.


It seems like every single person I know and on this form has improved this section even by a little. I don't get why I'm not getting it. I have read the PS LRB. I have read Kaplan's LR book too. I did read Manhattan's book too and I really didn't like it. I mean I'll definitely read it again.


lol that's the right thing to do. read and REALLY apply it this time. For example, on assumption family questions: tackle each question like an impatient debater. Ask yourself "WHERE THE HELL IS THE CONCLUSION?" then find it. Then yell "HOW THE HELL IS IT SUPPORTED?" and then organize the relevant premises. Then actively try and find the gap in the argument and find the correct answer choice. if you honestly apply the manhattan/lrb strategies, it would be impossible to get more than 10 wrong. GO back to the basics and drill like a madwoman.

MissJenna
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Re: Question for people who do LR sections 2x.........

Postby MissJenna » Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:03 am

RhymesLikeDimes wrote:How are you grading them without looking at the correct answers? Regardless, familiarity with the question goes a long way. The time element is also a major factor on LR. Without it, most people could get < -2 per. The very fact that you now know that you're answer to that question was wrong automatically eliminates an answer choice (should be one of the two best answer choices, but at -20....). Reviewing the questions you got wrong with the correct answer in front of you is way more valuable then simply retaking the section. Go through your thought process, where you screwed up, why your answer is wrong, and why the correct answer is right.

6/26 indicates that you have absolutely no grasp of what you need to be doing on each question. You need to pick up an LR guide (the LRB would be my recommendation), and read it word-for-word, cover-to-cover before you even think about wasting anymore LR sections.


I was thinking of focusing on the main question types (assumption, flaw, strengthen/weaken) because there's no time to focus on the other types & doing like 20 questions a day. Do u think this is a good idea?? I just can't come up w/anything to make me learn this.

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Typhoon24
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Re: Question for people who do LR sections 2x.........

Postby Typhoon24 » Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:07 am

all of those are assumption family questions. Anyway, you should develop or adopt a strategy for attacking EVERY single one of these questions first. In other words, every assumption family question can be broken down the same way, and once it's broken down, it's very easy to see the "argument core." Manhattan has a whole chapter designed exactly on what your thought process should be for these questions. Develop a strategy, then practice 20 questions a day. I would do about 40, but 20 isn't bad. Untimed first till you get a good feel on how to go over each question, then time it. make sure you do at least 10 PTs before June tho. 25 would be ideal.

MissJenna
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Re: Question for people who do LR sections 2x.........

Postby MissJenna » Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:12 pm

Typhoon24 wrote:
MissJenna wrote:
che3055 wrote:1. Manhattan LR Guide from cover to cover.

2. When you re-do sections, give it some time. After I do a LR, I briefly check which questions I got wrong. I thoroughly erase all markings pertaining to that question that I made on the page so that I won't be able to sneak any insights as to what I did the first time. Then, by waiting a week, or two, or three (really, the longer the better), I'm not really able to remember what I thought or what answer I picked on the first run through. The key is to make yourself as unbiased as possible.


It seems like every single person I know and on this form has improved this section even by a little. I don't get why I'm not getting it. I have read the PS LRB. I have read Kaplan's LR book too. I did read Manhattan's book too and I really didn't like it. I mean I'll definitely read it again.


lol that's the right thing to do. read and REALLY apply it this time. For example, on assumption family questions: tackle each question like an impatient debater. Ask yourself "WHERE THE HELL IS THE CONCLUSION?" then find it. Then yell "HOW THE HELL IS IT SUPPORTED?" and then organize the relevant premises. Then actively try and find the gap in the argument and find the correct answer choice. if you honestly apply the manhattan/lrb strategies, it would be impossible to get more than 10 wrong. GO back to the basics and drill like a madwoman.



This section is so incredibly difficult. I am taking the June (final chance) exam no matter what and I am scared to death that I might not even get half right on each of these 2 sections and honestly.....that's all I want at this point.

MissJenna
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Re: Question for people who do LR sections 2x.........

Postby MissJenna » Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:13 pm

Typhoon24 wrote:all of those are assumption family questions. Anyway, you should develop or adopt a strategy for attacking EVERY single one of these questions first. In other words, every assumption family question can be broken down the same way, and once it's broken down, it's very easy to see the "argument core." Manhattan has a whole chapter designed exactly on what your thought process should be for these questions. Develop a strategy, then practice 20 questions a day. I would do about 40, but 20 isn't bad. Untimed first till you get a good feel on how to go over each question, then time it. make sure you do at least 10 PTs before June tho. 25 would be ideal.



Can I ask your personal strategies that have helped you for these question types?

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Typhoon24
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Re: Question for people who do LR sections 2x.........

Postby Typhoon24 » Thu Apr 11, 2013 6:38 pm

I kinda said it before, but here it is again:
Every assumption family question has an argument that contains a conclusion and is supported by premises.

1. Be able to identify and then distinguish the conclusion from the premises.
2. Once you create a mental or a physical drawing of the conclusion on one side and the premises on the other, you should be able to see a "gap" in the argumentation.
3. This gap can be one of many things, it can be a missing premise (assumption), it can be a weak argument (strengthen/weaken), or it can be a jump/flaw in the argumentation.
4. Eliminate answers that have absolutely nothing to do with the gap. Naturally, you should be left with 1 or 2 answer choices.
5. Pick the correct one. I want to avoid saying 'best' one because one of the answers will be completely wrong and the other completely right.

As long as you consistently do steps 1 through 4 on every single question type, you will improve. Finding the right answer can be tricky at times, but perfect practice is the way to perfection here.

magickware
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Re: Question for people who do LR sections 2x.........

Postby magickware » Thu Apr 11, 2013 11:53 pm

Outright memorizing why something works is a perfectly valid way to improve.

So long as you can explain why that works.

So basically if you look at a question 5 times and afterwards can explain why the answer works to some random person, then you're good.

If you looked at it 5 times and know the answer but can't explain it, then that means you really don't understand it and all you've done is memorize what letter goes with that particular question.

Don't be the guy who does the second.

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RhymesLikeDimes
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Re: Question for people who do LR sections 2x.........

Postby RhymesLikeDimes » Fri Apr 12, 2013 7:25 am

You are NOT going to be ready for the June LSAT, especially if this indeed your last chance. You're setting yourself up to pay sticker at a bottom-10 law school. Robbing a bank has better outcomes than a 4th-tier law school with $200K in debt.

Is this your last chance because you have already taken it twice, or is there some other reason?




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