Can anybody earn a 180?

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Malakai
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Re: Can anybody earn a 180?

Postby Malakai » Mon Apr 01, 2013 7:15 am

Iroh wrote:That's pretty interesting! Once I'm done with the LSAT I'll have to actually read her book.

Of course, this also raises a question about willpower (maybe she answers it in the book). It's safe to say that the people who study harder to improve themselves have greater willpower than the people who give up right way. But is willpower something that can be improved with hard work, or is it an innate gift itself? It seems like in order to improve you willpower, you would have to have the will to increase your will in the first place...which seems like you wouldn't even have the problem in the first place. Or maybe I'm just writing gibberish.


I LOL'ed :D

bp shinners
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Re: Can anybody earn a 180?

Postby bp shinners » Mon Apr 01, 2013 10:43 am

dkb17xzx wrote:just curious bpshiners - what are the traits of the 180 students you've talked to / tutored?


The only universal one is that they're well-read. Other than that, they tend to be a bit socially awkward ;-)

lloydbraun
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Re: Can anybody earn a 180?

Postby lloydbraun » Mon Apr 01, 2013 8:53 pm

bp shinners wrote:
dkb17xzx wrote:just curious bpshiners - what are the traits of the 180 students you've talked to / tutored?


The only universal one is that they're well-read. Other than that, they tend to be a bit socially awkward ;-)


bp shinners, in your experience at what point do people of average intelligence (subjective, I know) who have prepared thoroughly plateau? 160? 165? 170?
Last edited by lloydbraun on Mon Apr 01, 2013 10:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Clearly
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Re: Can anybody earn a 180?

Postby Clearly » Mon Apr 01, 2013 9:09 pm

lloydbraun wrote:
bp shinners wrote:
dkb17xzx wrote:just curious bpshiners - what are the traits of the 180 students you've talked to / tutored?


The only universal one is that they're well-read. Other than that, they tend to be a bit socially awkward ;-)


bp shinners, in your experience at what point do people of average intelligence who have prepared thoroughly plateau? 160? 165? 170?

Too general a question to get a meaningful answer for. As a tutor, if I had to guess, I'd say about 156-8

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Elston Gunn
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Re: Can anybody earn a 180?

Postby Elston Gunn » Mon Apr 01, 2013 9:54 pm

bp shinners wrote:
dkb17xzx wrote:just curious bpshiners - what are the traits of the 180 students you've talked to / tutored?


The only universal one is that they're well-read. Other than that, they tend to be a bit socially awkward ;-)


<--------- pwned

Seriously, if everyone can get a 180 then I'm a terrible tutor.

dkb17xzx
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Re: Can anybody earn a 180?

Postby dkb17xzx » Tue Apr 02, 2013 8:45 am

bp shinners wrote:
dkb17xzx wrote:just curious bpshiners - what are the traits of the 180 students you've talked to / tutored?


The only universal one is that they're well-read. Other than that, they tend to be a bit socially awkward ;-)



I'll keep telling myself that's the reason I didn't get a 180

bp shinners
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Re: Can anybody earn a 180?

Postby bp shinners » Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:30 am

lloydbraun wrote:
bp shinners wrote:
dkb17xzx wrote:just curious bpshiners - what are the traits of the 180 students you've talked to / tutored?


The only universal one is that they're well-read. Other than that, they tend to be a bit socially awkward ;-)


bp shinners, in your experience at what point do people of average intelligence (subjective, I know) who have prepared thoroughly plateau? 160? 165? 170?


As stated by the other poster, it's really hard to say. Intelligence manifests itself in many different ways, so there are people I consider of relatively equal intelligence who have plateaued at vastly different levels.

I also don't want to alienate anyone ;-)

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Ben Franklin
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Re: Can anybody earn a 180?

Postby Ben Franklin » Thu Apr 04, 2013 2:50 am

It depends. The amount of questions you can miss and still get a 180 varies from test to test, since each test has a different curve.

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capt_slow
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Re: Can anybody earn a 180?

Postby capt_slow » Thu Apr 04, 2013 2:32 pm

No, I do not believe that anyone could earn a 180. Even with time and dedication, there will be people who are incapable of scores even into the 170s... Everyone if different, and that is why the LSAT continues to be a fairly accurate assessment tool for the law school admissions process.

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RemyMarathe
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Re: Can anybody earn a 180?

Postby RemyMarathe » Mon Apr 15, 2013 11:33 pm

No.

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NoodleyOne
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Re: Can anybody earn a 180?

Postby NoodleyOne » Tue Apr 16, 2013 2:13 pm

RhymesLikeDimes wrote:Putting forth the work necessary to actually achieve something requires you to put yourself out there, and that's something that most people aren't willing to do. They'd much rather stay in their own bubble and constantly reassure themselves that IF they did choose to try, the results would be amazing. This is why we have so many special snowflakes. All these people who have convinced themselves that they would accomplish great things if they decided to, but are secretly too afraid to do anything because it might reveal how mediocre they really are.

So true. I was like that for years. Trying is hard. If you try, you might fail. If you don't try, you don't fail, and then you can go on about how smart you are and how if you only applied yourself yadda yadda yadda.

As far as can anybody earn a 180? Probably not. TLS is a self-selecting group of pretty smart and motivated people. For the general populace that isn't necessarily the case.

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mindarmed
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Re: Can anybody earn a 180?

Postby mindarmed » Tue Apr 16, 2013 2:51 pm

NoodleyOne wrote:So true. I was like that for years. Trying is hard. If you try, you might fail. If you don't try, you don't fail, and then you can go on about how smart you are and how if you only applied yourself yadda yadda yadda.

As far as can anybody earn a 180? Probably not. TLS is a self-selecting group of pretty smart and motivated people. For the general populace that isn't necessarily the case.


Amen bro. I was the same exact way up until last year.

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JamMasterJ
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Re: Can anybody earn a 180?

Postby JamMasterJ » Tue Apr 16, 2013 2:54 pm

I'm gonna take the minority opinion and say that there are a not insignificant percentage of people that absolutely cannot hit a 180, and a fairly substantial portion who can't hit 170.

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NoodleyOne
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Re: Can anybody earn a 180?

Postby NoodleyOne » Tue Apr 16, 2013 2:57 pm

JamMasterJ wrote:I'm gonna take the minority opinion and say that there are a not insignificant percentage of people that absolutely cannot hit a 180, and a fairly substantial portion who can't hit 170.

Honestly, some of it is probably misplaced humility. A lot of us are 99th percentile scorers that worked hard to get it. While hard work was a necessary condition for my high score, I don't think it was a sufficient one. That being said, I think a larger percentage CAN score higher than they do, they just don't prep well enough.

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JamMasterJ
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Re: Can anybody earn a 180?

Postby JamMasterJ » Tue Apr 16, 2013 3:05 pm

NoodleyOne wrote:
JamMasterJ wrote:I'm gonna take the minority opinion and say that there are a not insignificant percentage of people that absolutely cannot hit a 180, and a fairly substantial portion who can't hit 170.

Honestly, some of it is probably misplaced humility. A lot of us are 99th percentile scorers that worked hard to get it. While hard work was a necessary condition for my high score, I don't think it was a sufficient one. That being said, I think a larger percentage CAN score higher than they do, they just don't prep well enough.

no, I started with like a 165 or something.
I've had people who couldn't do basic linear stuff and although they certainly can improve, there is a capacity issue

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NoodleyOne
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Re: Can anybody earn a 180?

Postby NoodleyOne » Tue Apr 16, 2013 3:08 pm

JamMasterJ wrote:
NoodleyOne wrote:
JamMasterJ wrote:I'm gonna take the minority opinion and say that there are a not insignificant percentage of people that absolutely cannot hit a 180, and a fairly substantial portion who can't hit 170.

Honestly, some of it is probably misplaced humility. A lot of us are 99th percentile scorers that worked hard to get it. While hard work was a necessary condition for my high score, I don't think it was a sufficient one. That being said, I think a larger percentage CAN score higher than they do, they just don't prep well enough.

no, I started with like a 165 or something.
I've had people who couldn't do basic linear stuff and although they certainly can improve, there is a capacity issue

What I meant is final score was in the 99th. My diag was a 157 or something like that. I agree, there's probably a capacity ceiling for a lot of people, I just think most people don't put in the work to even reach that.

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JamMasterJ
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Re: Can anybody earn a 180?

Postby JamMasterJ » Tue Apr 16, 2013 3:11 pm

NoodleyOne wrote:
JamMasterJ wrote:
NoodleyOne wrote:
JamMasterJ wrote:I'm gonna take the minority opinion and say that there are a not insignificant percentage of people that absolutely cannot hit a 180, and a fairly substantial portion who can't hit 170.

Honestly, some of it is probably misplaced humility. A lot of us are 99th percentile scorers that worked hard to get it. While hard work was a necessary condition for my high score, I don't think it was a sufficient one. That being said, I think a larger percentage CAN score higher than they do, they just don't prep well enough.

no, I started with like a 165 or something.
I've had people who couldn't do basic linear stuff and although they certainly can improve, there is a capacity issue

What I meant is final score was in the 99th. My diag was a 157 or something like that. I agree, there's probably a capacity ceiling for a lot of people, I just think most people don't put in the work to even reach that.

Oh I totally agree. "no" meant yes I agree with you that although you can do serious work, there are ceilings :lol:

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ManoftheHour
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Re: Can anybody earn a 180?

Postby ManoftheHour » Tue Apr 16, 2013 3:16 pm

NoodleyOne wrote:As far as can anybody earn a 180? Probably not. TLS is a self-selecting group of pretty smart and motivated people. For the general populace that isn't necessarily the case.


Not sure about aptitude, but I would say smarter in the sense that "if you're going to invest six figures into something, then you better research every last bit of it" sense.

I don't know what my future holds as of this moment (I'm retaking this June), but I am already forever grateful for TLS for it has discouraged me from attending Notre Dame at sticker. The general population thought I struck it rich when I landed a T-25.

Naclam
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Re: Can anybody earn a 180?

Postby Naclam » Tue Apr 16, 2013 3:23 pm

It also depends on the ability to manage your emotions during the test day. You can be a smart person, but if you become a nervous wreck while actually taking the test, then you will probably not get a 180.

03152016
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Re: Can anybody earn a 180?

Postby 03152016 » Tue Apr 16, 2013 3:36 pm

.
Last edited by 03152016 on Tue Mar 15, 2016 3:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Method of Madness
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Re: Can anybody earn a 180?

Postby Method of Madness » Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:42 pm

ManoftheHour wrote:I don't know what my future holds as of this moment (I'm retaking this June), but I am already forever grateful for TLS for it has discouraged me from attending Notre Dame at sticker. The general population thought I struck it rich when I landed a T-25.
Replace Notre Dame with American and 25 with 50 and you have me. Got a 159 pretty much cold in December (with two PTs of 155 to 159 before the test, PTing around 166 at the moment).

As for the topic, I think many more people can -0 both LG and LR with sufficient practice than can do that plus -0/-1 RC, from what I hear RC is the hardest to improve. In terms of sufficient practice, though, I'm kind of bad at studying (between high school and a fairly easy college major, I never really had to), but I try to get in a practice test a week (I'll increase to two or three a week in May) and to do at least some drilling most other days. It may not seem like enough but I seem to be improving steadily, so I guess time will tell.

LDVM4334
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Re: Can anybody earn a 180?

Postby LDVM4334 » Sat Apr 20, 2013 4:23 am

Clearlynotstefan wrote:I started prep at 151, First official at 164, last official 176. I'm not alone either, plenty of people around here really put the work in and have the results to show for it.


I do not think this is unusual, nor is it the norm. I don't think the "average", even average in TLS/LSAT terms, is capable of 180.

I took TestMasters, have an IQ of 135+, and have done 167+ on the LSAT, but I can't imagine a scenario where I could legitimately get -2 or less wrong on the LSAT. Nor does that bother me. It's a pretty hard test, and you have to be pretty smart to do extremely well.

Timing is the first component, as most people could get pretty much every Q right with enough time.

Then comes skill (practice), because you CAN prepare yourself. But ultimately, it comes down to...I don't know...natural intelligence? Something I can't define myself. My TestMasters teacher got a 180 his first time taking it (rejected HLS and only would've excepted YLS), worked for Microsoft during the week during the day, and was so much smarter than me that I spent the time before classes (where admittedly I was the only one there) just asking him questions about what it was like/what it felt like to be THAT smart.

I mean, it's subjective. Don't judge yourself as a person based on this test. I'll be taking it for my 5th time and, due to lack of nerves, I'll do better than I ever have. Doesn't make me useful in today's economy. Just means if I can practice a LOT for a test, I can ace it. Nobody cares. Don't do law school because of lack of other choices.

The LSAT ain't a measure of your IQ, no matter what MENSA says. It's a measure of how well you can do on the LSAT, which, depending on your natural intelligence and educational background, can be a very hard test.




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